Big decisions looming?
Lee Jung,
The standard line is that the buy of 232 Typhoon is needed to sustain a 137-strong force of aircraft, which will make up 7 front line squadrons with 16 aircraft each. (The remaining 25 aircraft out of the 137 are the OEU and OCU airframes). The 95 'spare' aircraft would be the attrition reserve.
However.... it seems likely that there will only be six (and possibly only five) front-line Typhoon units, which would reduce the front line to 105 - 121.
The question of whether we need all 232 or slightly smaller number to meet UK requirements is not an easy one to answer though - factor in the lack of GR 4 airframes to take that fleet to its out of service date; add in doubts about whether the JSF will really be needed in the numbers currently spoken of....
The standard line is that the buy of 232 Typhoon is needed to sustain a 137-strong force of aircraft, which will make up 7 front line squadrons with 16 aircraft each. (The remaining 25 aircraft out of the 137 are the OEU and OCU airframes). The 95 'spare' aircraft would be the attrition reserve.
However.... it seems likely that there will only be six (and possibly only five) front-line Typhoon units, which would reduce the front line to 105 - 121.
The question of whether we need all 232 or slightly smaller number to meet UK requirements is not an easy one to answer though - factor in the lack of GR 4 airframes to take that fleet to its out of service date; add in doubts about whether the JSF will really be needed in the numbers currently spoken of....
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Quote: Green Meat
Styr, so the defence of the nation should rest on Labour's tarditional heartlands? Wasn't there a strong rumour that the CVs would be sub-contracted to France in any case?
Styr, so the defence of the nation should rest on Labour's tarditional heartlands? Wasn't there a strong rumour that the CVs would be sub-contracted to France in any case?
As for the CVF if we cancel it we may as well scrap the expensive Amphibous fleet we have recently built up as it won't be able to launch amphibous operations unless there is an airfield nearby.
Unless it deploys with US Carrier air cover. May as well scrap the Royal Marines infact lets just scrap the military as the world is such a safe and predictable place.
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95 spare aircraft as an attrition reserve, christ the DAS must be cr&p!!!!!!!
The saving of cutting that reserve in half would more than pay for the recently cut 'lift' component of the 'rotorcraft' project. And a fully supported sistership for the flogged-to-death HMS Ocean.
Heard an intersting counter for the argument about the carriers being expensive. So far the 'new' Nimrod programme has produced (and is looking likely to produce) 4 x 1950s aircraft and a radar that allegedly doesn't work at a cost of £3bn. Stand by for a really friendly report from the NAO.
Apparently the galley is state of the art though.....
The saving of cutting that reserve in half would more than pay for the recently cut 'lift' component of the 'rotorcraft' project. And a fully supported sistership for the flogged-to-death HMS Ocean.
Heard an intersting counter for the argument about the carriers being expensive. So far the 'new' Nimrod programme has produced (and is looking likely to produce) 4 x 1950s aircraft and a radar that allegedly doesn't work at a cost of £3bn. Stand by for a really friendly report from the NAO.
Apparently the galley is state of the art though.....
Suspicion breeds confidence
Q) What is coming this year?
A) An election.
Q) What always happens just before an election?
A) Lots of joicy ship building orders to buy some shipyard votes
Q) Where will the CVFs will be built?
A) Rosyth - Gordie Brown's constituency.
I expect that Eurofighter nations will come up with a compromise that lets them back out of T3.
I suspect the French are feeling quite smug. Having backed out of EF because it wasn't carrier compatible, they have an arguably more flexible/useful piece of kit.
Waiting for incoming
Mikehegland: If you did attack a T42 in an a/c you would be in deep do-do, unless you are close in-shore of course. Its missile attacks that cause them problems and lots of them around.
A) An election.
Q) What always happens just before an election?
A) Lots of joicy ship building orders to buy some shipyard votes
Q) Where will the CVFs will be built?
A) Rosyth - Gordie Brown's constituency.
I expect that Eurofighter nations will come up with a compromise that lets them back out of T3.
I suspect the French are feeling quite smug. Having backed out of EF because it wasn't carrier compatible, they have an arguably more flexible/useful piece of kit.
Waiting for incoming
Mikehegland: If you did attack a T42 in an a/c you would be in deep do-do, unless you are close in-shore of course. Its missile attacks that cause them problems and lots of them around.
Last edited by Navaleye; 5th Jan 2005 at 15:32.
LJ, I should've been more specific - as well as replacing aircraft lost in accidents, the 95 'spares' will also be rotated in and out of use to prolong airframe life. Remember that the Typhoon is currently slated for a service life of anything between 30 and 50 years, so the buy covers running out of airframe hours as well.
(Again, whether this still holds true is another matter).
(Again, whether this still holds true is another matter).
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Mikeheg Matey Boy
Interesting
Must have been an LA - how far away or close were you? obviously no cueing eh? Must have been enhanced!
How did you maintain contact when refueling?
Did you constantlly hold attack criteria over 2000 miles?
No, this is not a pissing contest between the blues - just facts about assets and value for money - Aeroplanes have longer and faster legs than ships! Element of surprise springs to mind !
Military Jet Noise - The Sound of Freedom!
And less detectable than helo rotors
Interesting
Must have been an LA - how far away or close were you? obviously no cueing eh? Must have been enhanced!
How did you maintain contact when refueling?
Did you constantlly hold attack criteria over 2000 miles?
No, this is not a pissing contest between the blues - just facts about assets and value for money - Aeroplanes have longer and faster legs than ships! Element of surprise springs to mind !
Military Jet Noise - The Sound of Freedom!
And less detectable than helo rotors
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CAS is quoted in either JDW or the Torygraph (I think the former) as saying that Typhoon Tranche 3 'isn't on anybody's radar'
Q) Where will the CVFs will be built?
A) Rosyth - Gordie Brown's constituency.
A) Rosyth - Gordie Brown's constituency.
The UK Armed Forces should get what they need and if there is a divide and conquer approach from MoD/Treasury then there should be some very senior (and public) light blue/dark blue resignations, problematic in an election year when security is on everyone's manifesto. The divide and conquer tactic has already tied the infantry in knots.
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But what if there was a CAP ahead of the ship? QED.
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Buoy15
Im not going to give anything away with regard to ranges, sonar performance...but your comment on refuelling was interesting... you clearly don't understand ther concept of CODLAG.
The worst thing about serving on a T23 is the CODLAG and the lack of any requirement to refuel.
To put it in context, I spent 6 months delpoyed on a T23 and refuelled twice. Sad or what.
WRT the comments on the T42....We all know the pro's and cons of this fine ship...bt sadly it is in decline BUT will be relieved by the fantastic brand spanking T45.... Now there is a fine ship....
Im not going to give anything away with regard to ranges, sonar performance...but your comment on refuelling was interesting... you clearly don't understand ther concept of CODLAG.
The worst thing about serving on a T23 is the CODLAG and the lack of any requirement to refuel.
To put it in context, I spent 6 months delpoyed on a T23 and refuelled twice. Sad or what.
WRT the comments on the T42....We all know the pro's and cons of this fine ship...bt sadly it is in decline BUT will be relieved by the fantastic brand spanking T45.... Now there is a fine ship....
Suspicion breeds confidence
c-bert, it is, however Halliburton own a redundant oil platform manufacturing plant at Nigg which is a contender. I would rate Rosyth as number 1.
Mikehegland: I believe the T23 has a published range of over 9000 miles at cruising speed. Personally, the fewer refuellings the better - why did you enjoy them so much?
Maple 01: Actually the newer 996 and 1022 radars are pretty good, much much better than he old 992/965 combo. Sampson will be as good as any in the world.
Mikehegland: I believe the T23 has a published range of over 9000 miles at cruising speed. Personally, the fewer refuellings the better - why did you enjoy them so much?
Maple 01: Actually the newer 996 and 1022 radars are pretty good, much much better than he old 992/965 combo. Sampson will be as good as any in the world.
Last edited by Navaleye; 6th Jan 2005 at 10:59.
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At least you Brits are getting a mixed fleet of jets no matter what happens ( or can they really be that stupid?). Looks like we will be JSF or nothing...Jack of all trades........
As a light blue suiter (although we recently reverted to our 1940's dark blue outfits down here!) I guess I'd be out of step by supporting the need for carriers......Even though they are a big radar blob for any ASM, at least they've got organic AD - Unless the pollies of the future decide to bin the JSF just as it matures to a useful state (SHAR-style). 2 little/medium carriers would do nicely. Not so sure about all 150 JSFs though!
As for marinising the Type-hoon forget it. As for Tranche 3, well....Is it really required? If you can stick a decent targetting pod on a Tranche 2 won't that suffice in true RAF "WHAT ELSE DID WE FORGET TO BOLT ON " fashion?
I'm quite sold by the idea of flogging off your excess airframes - BUT DON'T TRY TO SELL THEM TO US!!!!!!!!!
Surprised Jacko hasn't weighed in here yet!
As a light blue suiter (although we recently reverted to our 1940's dark blue outfits down here!) I guess I'd be out of step by supporting the need for carriers......Even though they are a big radar blob for any ASM, at least they've got organic AD - Unless the pollies of the future decide to bin the JSF just as it matures to a useful state (SHAR-style). 2 little/medium carriers would do nicely. Not so sure about all 150 JSFs though!
As for marinising the Type-hoon forget it. As for Tranche 3, well....Is it really required? If you can stick a decent targetting pod on a Tranche 2 won't that suffice in true RAF "WHAT ELSE DID WE FORGET TO BOLT ON " fashion?
I'm quite sold by the idea of flogging off your excess airframes - BUT DON'T TRY TO SELL THEM TO US!!!!!!!!!
Surprised Jacko hasn't weighed in here yet!
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Why did I enjoy the T23....?
Accommodation was spacious....
Fully integrated C2 system which as it turned out was (is) the best in the world (eventually)
Massive Flight deck.
Superb hangar with bags of room and loads of cupboard space...we even had a cupboard for your helmet and goonbag.
Lean manning made for more friendly, more team orientated Ship's Co.... There were no such things as stores parties..we all did it...RAS's was an entire ships event... one in all in...includuing ALL the officers.
All in all....Bloomin good steamers....
Accommodation was spacious....
Fully integrated C2 system which as it turned out was (is) the best in the world (eventually)
Massive Flight deck.
Superb hangar with bags of room and loads of cupboard space...we even had a cupboard for your helmet and goonbag.
Lean manning made for more friendly, more team orientated Ship's Co.... There were no such things as stores parties..we all did it...RAS's was an entire ships event... one in all in...includuing ALL the officers.
All in all....Bloomin good steamers....
Suspicion breeds confidence
Fully integrated C2 system which as it turned out was (is) the best in the world (eventually)
I think its a crying shame we are losing them. I'm sure the Chileans will look after them. I'm not quite sure what they will fly off them though.
"WEB
Provided it wasn't a Raptor CAP, and I was in a Typhoon, no problem."
And unless it's a fully autonomous CAP, by the time Roger Waitout and his gang have assembled their excreta, the weapons will be well on their way inbound to their little grey floating coffin.
Provided it wasn't a Raptor CAP, and I was in a Typhoon, no problem."
And unless it's a fully autonomous CAP, by the time Roger Waitout and his gang have assembled their excreta, the weapons will be well on their way inbound to their little grey floating coffin.