Virgin Atlantic are currently recruiting pilots
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Just for info
I did the Virgin Atlantic interview last month and of the six of us there were 2 RAF pilots, 1 fastjet the other Nimrod. Hope they did well both very nice chappies!
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I did the Virgin Atlantic interview last month and of the six of us there were 2 RAF pilots, 1 fastjet the other Nimrod. Hope they did well both very nice chappies!
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Thread Starter
Good point, Dan - and Happy Christmas to you and your family.
Many pilots won't actually be eligible to be ZFT trained; from Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.261 (c) (2):
REQUIRED PILOT EXPERIENCE. ZFTT will only be approved for type rating training for pilots of multi-pilot aeroplanes who meet the minimum flying experience specified for the level of flight simulator to be used on the course, as follows:
(a) Pilots undertaking ZFTT shall have completed not less than 1500 hours flight time or 250 route sectors on a relevant aeroplane type if a flight simulator qualified to Level CG or C is used during the course. If a Level DG, Interim D or D qualified flight simulator is used the pilot shall have not less than 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors on a relevant type;
(b) A relevant type of aeroplane is a turbo-jet, transport category aeroplane with a MTOM of not less than 10 tons or an approved passenger seating configuration for not less than 20 passengers.
It is probably worhtwhile for those ex-Mil pilots who do meet ZFTT criteria to indicate the fact on their CVs! Although it's not clear from the ambiguous JAR-speak whether it means '1500 hours flight time on a relevant aeroplane or 250 route sectors on a relevant aeroplane' - or whether the 1500 hours could be on any aeroplane? I suspect the former?
Many pilots won't actually be eligible to be ZFT trained; from Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.261 (c) (2):
REQUIRED PILOT EXPERIENCE. ZFTT will only be approved for type rating training for pilots of multi-pilot aeroplanes who meet the minimum flying experience specified for the level of flight simulator to be used on the course, as follows:
(a) Pilots undertaking ZFTT shall have completed not less than 1500 hours flight time or 250 route sectors on a relevant aeroplane type if a flight simulator qualified to Level CG or C is used during the course. If a Level DG, Interim D or D qualified flight simulator is used the pilot shall have not less than 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors on a relevant type;
(b) A relevant type of aeroplane is a turbo-jet, transport category aeroplane with a MTOM of not less than 10 tons or an approved passenger seating configuration for not less than 20 passengers.
It is probably worhtwhile for those ex-Mil pilots who do meet ZFTT criteria to indicate the fact on their CVs! Although it's not clear from the ambiguous JAR-speak whether it means '1500 hours flight time on a relevant aeroplane or 250 route sectors on a relevant aeroplane' - or whether the 1500 hours could be on any aeroplane? I suspect the former?
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Five ex-military guys have been employed in the last few months. They are from various backgrounds, including FJ. There are more in the holding pool. There are also people from around 20 other airlines, and the military success rate is pretty high compared to the others - especially when you factor in the lack of appropriate experience. Trouble is, there aren't enough jobs for all those who want one! And, it has to be said, some ex-mil guys would not fit into the civilian longhaul environment...
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Are we fishing, Scroggs?
I guess the ones you are talking about are the same ones not suited to a military cockpit, especially a truckie one.
Being gods gift in a dogfight does not make one a good captain. That said, it does not preclude it.
Personally, I would far rather fly with a good "captain" than a good "pilot".
Sadly, there are too few of the former around these days.
I guess the ones you are talking about are the same ones not suited to a military cockpit, especially a truckie one.
Being gods gift in a dogfight does not make one a good captain. That said, it does not preclude it.
Personally, I would far rather fly with a good "captain" than a good "pilot".
Sadly, there are too few of the former around these days.
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No, I'm not fishing. As you suggest, there are some personalities that just don't work in the longhaul business, where you have to get on with the other guy (and the rest of the crew) for upwards of 12 hours at a stretch. Some people find it hard to leave behind the military mentality, and thus have difficulties getting a crew to work with them. It's life, it's always been an issue to some degree; it's certainly not a new thing! Hopefully our selection procedures can weed out those individuals who prefer a one-man operation (and they don't just come from FJs, single-seat or not!). Piloting skills are relatively easy to come by (and largely irrelevant in a B744 or A346!), but captaincy isn't.
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Quote " Piloting skills are relatively easy to come by (and largely irrelevant in a B744 or A346!), but captaincy isn't."
What complete tosh. How on earth did you get through the system with that sort of drivel. How much command time do you have on the B744/A340?
Piloting skills are still very necessary, even in a modern flightdeck. That is why we have skill tests and proficiency checks.
Several airlines, including Virgin and BA, are having problems with F/O's on upgrades who believe that they work in a button pushing environment and have allowed their competency to fall below acceptable levels. All good news for the guys lower down the seniority list of course!
If respect is lost for our handling skills and over reliance placed on the automatics then you become little more than an accident or incident waiting to happen. Don't be the one to get caught.
Scroggs, with respect, you appear to have little experience of airline flying, pilot selection or command upgrades. May I suggest that you don't set yourself up as an authority on such matters.
What complete tosh. How on earth did you get through the system with that sort of drivel. How much command time do you have on the B744/A340?
Piloting skills are still very necessary, even in a modern flightdeck. That is why we have skill tests and proficiency checks.
Several airlines, including Virgin and BA, are having problems with F/O's on upgrades who believe that they work in a button pushing environment and have allowed their competency to fall below acceptable levels. All good news for the guys lower down the seniority list of course!
If respect is lost for our handling skills and over reliance placed on the automatics then you become little more than an accident or incident waiting to happen. Don't be the one to get caught.
Scroggs, with respect, you appear to have little experience of airline flying, pilot selection or command upgrades. May I suggest that you don't set yourself up as an authority on such matters.
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Hoofhearted
Not sure if you are ex-mil or not. From the tone of your post I would guess not.
The discussion about pure piloting skills was with reference to mil pilots. Our flyng ( even on transports) is much more hands on than airline flying, and for an experienced pilot, is taken as a basic skill, that all posess. You would not pass basic training without " a good pair of hands".
The point being made was that for the crossover to airline flying, it is more important to display good captaincy skills, than to be the "best dogfighter in the west".
P-T-G
Not sure if you are ex-mil or not. From the tone of your post I would guess not.
The discussion about pure piloting skills was with reference to mil pilots. Our flyng ( even on transports) is much more hands on than airline flying, and for an experienced pilot, is taken as a basic skill, that all posess. You would not pass basic training without " a good pair of hands".
The point being made was that for the crossover to airline flying, it is more important to display good captaincy skills, than to be the "best dogfighter in the west".
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IMHO, and particularly in LH. piloting skills are not necessarily easy to come by. Nor maintain. People such as scroggs, may simply be underestimating the level of experience they (and those they fly with) are able to fall back on.
Long may it continue.
Long may it continue.
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hoof I'm sorry if I've wound you up a bit, but please bear in mind the audience to whom I'm talking. Basic handling skills are not highly prioritised in our business compared to theirs; the average Virgin pilot gets a couple of landings a month and four sim sessions, plus a linecheck. These sims and checks are much more about airmanship than handling, and are intended to improve those areas which contribute to the more important airline skill: captaincy.
As I said earlier, longhaul airline flying is not a place for people who still need to improve on their handling skills, or who still have a wish to prove how good a pilot they are. This is a simple fact of our lives; it's neither news nor controversial. As for the 'button-pushing' comment, I've made no such allegation nor have I implied it.
As for my experience, well, maybe it's not to your satisfaction, but it is significant in all the areas you mention except A340/B744 command. It does, however, include several thousand hours command time in C130s, and much of that as a trainer. It also includes periods involved in pilot selection. Whether that qualifies me as an 'authority', the reader will have to judge. I don't claim to be one, but I do believe I can help with valid information for those who might wish to try our lifestyle.
As I said earlier, longhaul airline flying is not a place for people who still need to improve on their handling skills, or who still have a wish to prove how good a pilot they are. This is a simple fact of our lives; it's neither news nor controversial. As for the 'button-pushing' comment, I've made no such allegation nor have I implied it.
As for my experience, well, maybe it's not to your satisfaction, but it is significant in all the areas you mention except A340/B744 command. It does, however, include several thousand hours command time in C130s, and much of that as a trainer. It also includes periods involved in pilot selection. Whether that qualifies me as an 'authority', the reader will have to judge. I don't claim to be one, but I do believe I can help with valid information for those who might wish to try our lifestyle.
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hoof
I would suggest that you rein in a tad. Scroggs is in fact a very capable pilot. Better than average in my view and although he will not thank me for saying this I consider him to be more than able to set himself above MANY civil and service pilots.
He has also been instrumental in advising some very skilful pilots the right road to follow. VERY successfully it has to be said.
And btw there is NO good news for people down the seniority list. They still have to demonstrate an above average aptitude - no shortcuts and so it be right.
I would suggest that you rein in a tad. Scroggs is in fact a very capable pilot. Better than average in my view and although he will not thank me for saying this I consider him to be more than able to set himself above MANY civil and service pilots.
He has also been instrumental in advising some very skilful pilots the right road to follow. VERY successfully it has to be said.
And btw there is NO good news for people down the seniority list. They still have to demonstrate an above average aptitude - no shortcuts and so it be right.
I know that i am not a pilot, only a poor flight engineer, but after a mere 34 years flying and still with a current flying job, Roland Pulfrew can go and get stuffed. A competent captain with crew skills is far better than a Red Arrows wannabe. We have first officers with 1000hrs, no atpl, but lots of crew skills. Who needs FJPs
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With all this talk of FJ and large ME aircraft, how do VA (or BA for that matter) view ex-military helicopter drivers? If captaincy and multi crew skills are required, then life in a support helo environment provides plenty of opportunities to develop both. We just end up with a bit of a shortfall in the FW handling skills!
Do either company accept ex-mil RW pilots with fATPL or would they expect us to go and develop the large ME FW handling skills elsewhere first?
Without trying to answer my own question, I would imagine that the answer is probably the latter for VA given their entry standards, but what about BA?
Apologies for the slight thread creep away from VS!!
Do either company accept ex-mil RW pilots with fATPL or would they expect us to go and develop the large ME FW handling skills elsewhere first?
Without trying to answer my own question, I would imagine that the answer is probably the latter for VA given their entry standards, but what about BA?
Apologies for the slight thread creep away from VS!!
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Virgin have accepted RW mates in the past when more 'suitable' pilots were relatively hard to come by, but I've a feeling that in the current market they don't have to, so they won't - for now. Watch this space, and, if you have the hours, get an application in. I don't think the current supply of Airbus-qualified applicants is going to last for ever!
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Scroggs, in light of recent "developments" in the caring sharing RAF, what are the chances of a hypothetical 44 year old, frozen ATPL with 5000+ military , 3000+ on heavy jets, being looked at?
I am of course only asking for a friend!
(log in changed as I can't remember my old password, Damn!)
I am of course only asking for a friend!
(log in changed as I can't remember my old password, Damn!)
Last edited by old'n'bald; 4th Jan 2005 at 10:08.
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snafu
scroggs is almost certainly correct. I remember a time (around 1988!) when BA had a massive recruitment campaign, and couldn't find enough experienced pilots. I can still picture the advert in Flight asking for anyone with an ATPL/H to apply for retraining (at BA's expense!) to fly planks. (That's FW to any non-RW types!)
Difficult to imagine that now though. However, for the reasons that you have stated, I am pretty sure that any major carrier would give you some credit for your previous experience, provided you meet their minimum FW criteria!
That criteria is of course subject to market forces.
Once in, your experience will definitely give you all the CRM, and airmanship advantages, associated with any similar level of experience; FW or RW.
Lot's of new things to learn, probably the most difficult, depending on your first type, being managing inertia.
Just remember, FW is NEVER as much fun as RW.
Which is probably why it pays better!
scroggs is almost certainly correct. I remember a time (around 1988!) when BA had a massive recruitment campaign, and couldn't find enough experienced pilots. I can still picture the advert in Flight asking for anyone with an ATPL/H to apply for retraining (at BA's expense!) to fly planks. (That's FW to any non-RW types!)
Difficult to imagine that now though. However, for the reasons that you have stated, I am pretty sure that any major carrier would give you some credit for your previous experience, provided you meet their minimum FW criteria!
That criteria is of course subject to market forces.
Once in, your experience will definitely give you all the CRM, and airmanship advantages, associated with any similar level of experience; FW or RW.
Lot's of new things to learn, probably the most difficult, depending on your first type, being managing inertia.
Just remember, FW is NEVER as much fun as RW.
Which is probably why it pays better!
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 4th Jan 2005 at 19:11.
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Its good to see that the rotary guys are getting a heads up here!!!
Scroggs, you say that we will be considered if there are no 'suitable' pilots available! With your previous comments about the requirement for more captaincy skills and less flying skills I fail to see where the suitability lies
With 3500+ in wobble heads in a variety of situations including three SAR tours as captain I like to feel that my captaincy, irrespective of the aircraft or situation, is quite well honed. I would also like to venture that the captaincy of my fellow wobblehead bretheren is also of such a high standard. Helos, although slower, are often much more unforgiving than fixed wing, requiring positive flying backed up by firm judgment, good crew co-op in potentially stressful situations and accurate system knowledge. Does this not factor in the 'suitable' pilot scenario.
I am coming to the end of my time now and I am embarking on the joys of being financially crucified by the CAA to obtain my ATPL(A)/Frozen and I have to say that flying planks again is relaxing
At least I get to go flying in the daylight when I pay for it myself!!!!
So do I stand little chance against my shiney fast steed riding rivals?????
Edited due to c%^p spelling
Scroggs, you say that we will be considered if there are no 'suitable' pilots available! With your previous comments about the requirement for more captaincy skills and less flying skills I fail to see where the suitability lies
With 3500+ in wobble heads in a variety of situations including three SAR tours as captain I like to feel that my captaincy, irrespective of the aircraft or situation, is quite well honed. I would also like to venture that the captaincy of my fellow wobblehead bretheren is also of such a high standard. Helos, although slower, are often much more unforgiving than fixed wing, requiring positive flying backed up by firm judgment, good crew co-op in potentially stressful situations and accurate system knowledge. Does this not factor in the 'suitable' pilot scenario.
I am coming to the end of my time now and I am embarking on the joys of being financially crucified by the CAA to obtain my ATPL(A)/Frozen and I have to say that flying planks again is relaxing
At least I get to go flying in the daylight when I pay for it myself!!!!So do I stand little chance against my shiney fast steed riding rivals?????
Edited due to c%^p spelling
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Paul, don't shoot the messenger! Obviously, Virgin (and any other airline) is looking for people with experience as close to their operational environment as possible. Ideally, we'd like to poach A340 pilots from Cathay, SAA, Singapore, etc. That's unlikely to produce that many takers, so we look for the next nearest candidates. My Travel and BMI A330 drivers are in plentiful supply, so we've taken some of them. Pilots of smaller Airbuses can be retrained cheaply, so they're also in the frame.
We don't like to put all our eggs in one basket, and there are plenty of pilots with heavy jet experience out there from many environments, so we have taken guys from all sorts of places - including the RAF's transport fleet (such as me!). The further away from the longhaul airline environment the applicant comes from, the less sure we can be that they will successfully complete the training and (more importantly) happily and comfortably make the transition to our style of flying - and I believe there have been a couple of problems in the past in this area which the airline wouldn't be too keen to repeat.
None of this is a comment on any RW pilot's captaincy or anything else other than that the military RW world is a long way removed from ours, and the transition is less straightforward than it is for the people with the experience I mention above - of which there are plenty! Believe me, if we ever get back to the kind of employment free-for-all we had in '98-'99, RW pilots will be as welcome as anyone else. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
However, don't take this as representing Virgin's official position on RW (or any other) pilots. I speak from my own observations and from discussing the issues with those who are directly involved with the pilot recruiting process in Virgin. The info is historically accurate, but I have no access to information about policy changes which may or may not happen in the near or medium future. In other words, if you have the hours and the desire to be considered for this job, get your application in! If you don't ask...
We don't like to put all our eggs in one basket, and there are plenty of pilots with heavy jet experience out there from many environments, so we have taken guys from all sorts of places - including the RAF's transport fleet (such as me!). The further away from the longhaul airline environment the applicant comes from, the less sure we can be that they will successfully complete the training and (more importantly) happily and comfortably make the transition to our style of flying - and I believe there have been a couple of problems in the past in this area which the airline wouldn't be too keen to repeat.
None of this is a comment on any RW pilot's captaincy or anything else other than that the military RW world is a long way removed from ours, and the transition is less straightforward than it is for the people with the experience I mention above - of which there are plenty! Believe me, if we ever get back to the kind of employment free-for-all we had in '98-'99, RW pilots will be as welcome as anyone else. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
However, don't take this as representing Virgin's official position on RW (or any other) pilots. I speak from my own observations and from discussing the issues with those who are directly involved with the pilot recruiting process in Virgin. The info is historically accurate, but I have no access to information about policy changes which may or may not happen in the near or medium future. In other words, if you have the hours and the desire to be considered for this job, get your application in! If you don't ask...
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Thanks Scroggs,
A highly candid reply as always! I wasn't shooting at anyone, damn hard to hit anything from a helicopter anyway
I feel my point is that although we are further away from the operarional airline environment we have also alot to offer. Interesting to see that Easy Jet are now factoring helo hours at .5!
They were invited to a secluded air station in the south west to see what really happens in the wobble world and were somewhat surprised at the level of CRM and captaincy involved in helo flying. I personally feel that if you can throw off the 'military' threads when leaving and accept the position of 'newbie' in the airline cockpit and avoid the 'when I's' as much as possible then life should be fun.
Futures looking bright, still wearing shades
A highly candid reply as always! I wasn't shooting at anyone, damn hard to hit anything from a helicopter anyway
I feel my point is that although we are further away from the operarional airline environment we have also alot to offer. Interesting to see that Easy Jet are now factoring helo hours at .5!
They were invited to a secluded air station in the south west to see what really happens in the wobble world and were somewhat surprised at the level of CRM and captaincy involved in helo flying. I personally feel that if you can throw off the 'military' threads when leaving and accept the position of 'newbie' in the airline cockpit and avoid the 'when I's' as much as possible then life should be fun.
Futures looking bright, still wearing shades