Army pilot?
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Army pilot?
I am interested in becoming an officer in the army air corps and I was hoping some one out there could help me find the answer to a few questions. I am 23 years old and have already served 5 years in the Royal Marines. I’m a civilian now and having gained the necessary academic qualifications I would like to try for an army commission. I have a JAR PPL but I am aware that this makes little, if any difference.
I wonder if any one could tell me what would be the expected career path for a non-graduate in the A.A.C. I understand that all officers are expected to spend time on the ground doing various office/administration jobs but surly the slower promotion for non-graduates affects this, or at least dictates what jobs are available.
I have found a lot of literature and information about the R.A.F. selection, training and organisation but very little about the modern army air corps. Does any one know how I can best conduct some more detailed research, as I am keen to learn as much as possible? Any help or info at all would be hugely appreciated.
By the way, after reading other forums it would appear that there is a lot of confusion about exactly how many Apaches there are in service and how many more we can reasonably expect to see in future. Can anyone shed any light on this?
I wonder if any one could tell me what would be the expected career path for a non-graduate in the A.A.C. I understand that all officers are expected to spend time on the ground doing various office/administration jobs but surly the slower promotion for non-graduates affects this, or at least dictates what jobs are available.
I have found a lot of literature and information about the R.A.F. selection, training and organisation but very little about the modern army air corps. Does any one know how I can best conduct some more detailed research, as I am keen to learn as much as possible? Any help or info at all would be hugely appreciated.
By the way, after reading other forums it would appear that there is a lot of confusion about exactly how many Apaches there are in service and how many more we can reasonably expect to see in future. Can anyone shed any light on this?
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Erskine, have you considered a commision with the RM or Navy? If its a long flying career you are after, it may be the better route.
If you commisioned with RM, you could have the best of both worlds so to speak.
The RM cross pollinate with the rest of the FAA now as well as 847sqn duties.
With regard to AH. Dishforth are doing well as is CTT programme at Middle Wallop.
If you commisioned with RM, you could have the best of both worlds so to speak.
The RM cross pollinate with the rest of the FAA now as well as 847sqn duties.
With regard to AH. Dishforth are doing well as is CTT programme at Middle Wallop.
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Having just left the AAC as an attached officer (and a non-grad!) for 5 years I will tell you what I know.
If you got stuck into the recruiting process now, and assuming you were succesful at RMAS which with your background should be a reasonable assumption, you could be looking at flying at about 25 yrs of age. This is not the problem that it used to be as promotion is now done on time as opposed to age; a good thing! The problem of limited flying time within the AAC is fairly common to both groups, grads and non-grads, now that the new system is in place so I do not believe that it makes a great deal of difference. It is a problem for some, especially those that wish to specialise as aircrew, but the bottom line is that the specialist aircrew are the SNCO/WOs, and a fine job they do to.
However, with the new aircraft in service things may change, but don't hold your breath. Expect a flying course of 18-24 months, a flying tour of 3 years and, if you are really lucky, a second flying tour of 2 years, albeit in a command appointment with the extra non-flying duties you would associate with that. If you work on that before going into a staff related appointment then you shouldn't be too disappointed. You could expect to fly as a Sqn Comd once you had risen to the rank with all the ticks-in-boxes in place.
The army has bought 67 AH, of which 48 will be fielded in the front line Sqns (3 x Regts, each with 2 x AH Sqns). If you wish to find out more try the Recruiting & Liaison Officer at Middle Wallop (01980 674 216 or [email protected]) for the current position.
I came from a similar background to yourself within the army commandos and found that this type of experience was gladly received. However, I was already in the army and you must be aware that the competition is fierce. There is always the possibility that you would complete RMAS and not join the AAC so give it a lot of thought.
Whichever way you decide to go, good luck! It's great fun and generally a great blunch of chaps/chappesses. Just don't expect exercises that you would be used to!
If you got stuck into the recruiting process now, and assuming you were succesful at RMAS which with your background should be a reasonable assumption, you could be looking at flying at about 25 yrs of age. This is not the problem that it used to be as promotion is now done on time as opposed to age; a good thing! The problem of limited flying time within the AAC is fairly common to both groups, grads and non-grads, now that the new system is in place so I do not believe that it makes a great deal of difference. It is a problem for some, especially those that wish to specialise as aircrew, but the bottom line is that the specialist aircrew are the SNCO/WOs, and a fine job they do to.
However, with the new aircraft in service things may change, but don't hold your breath. Expect a flying course of 18-24 months, a flying tour of 3 years and, if you are really lucky, a second flying tour of 2 years, albeit in a command appointment with the extra non-flying duties you would associate with that. If you work on that before going into a staff related appointment then you shouldn't be too disappointed. You could expect to fly as a Sqn Comd once you had risen to the rank with all the ticks-in-boxes in place.
The army has bought 67 AH, of which 48 will be fielded in the front line Sqns (3 x Regts, each with 2 x AH Sqns). If you wish to find out more try the Recruiting & Liaison Officer at Middle Wallop (01980 674 216 or [email protected]) for the current position.
I came from a similar background to yourself within the army commandos and found that this type of experience was gladly received. However, I was already in the army and you must be aware that the competition is fierce. There is always the possibility that you would complete RMAS and not join the AAC so give it a lot of thought.
Whichever way you decide to go, good luck! It's great fun and generally a great blunch of chaps/chappesses. Just don't expect exercises that you would be used to!
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By no means a fob off, but if you use the search facility and type in AAC Officer, you will have a raft of info that will keep you going until the New Year.
One thing though, time is tight, 23 may not sound old, but as a non grad and a slow selection process, time goes by very quickly.
Happy to discuss things in more detail if you want to PM.
One thing though, time is tight, 23 may not sound old, but as a non grad and a slow selection process, time goes by very quickly.
Happy to discuss things in more detail if you want to PM.
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Most valid piont so far: if you get RMAS then be advised final AAC selection may not take place until the half way piont (once the DS have assessed all viable recruits) whilst the promise may seem good at the front end you could well find your self holding for a couple of years in another Corps if direct entry via RMAS is not an option, this has been done many times but it does mean once selected you wait for up to 3 years prior to training which in itself is 16 months minimum. all in all with selection and holds you may have to prepare yourself for a 5 year wait, so try FAA first as it may have a quicker result.
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Gentlemen,
Out of curiosity:
As a US Army Chief Warrant Officer (CW4) Aviator, and reading between the lines on this thread, it appears that you have a similar structure in your Army Aviation. That is, WO's do the professional flying for the most part. True or not?
In the US Army, WO's are commissioned upon reaching the grade of CW2, after three years as a WO1 Aviator. CW2's and 3's are usually Company level Officers, acting as Unit Trainers and IP's, while CW4's are Battalion level and CW5's are Brigade level specialists.
Our WO1's graduate from flight school with three primary aicraft available; the UH-60, OH-58D, and the AH-64. Assignment to these aircraft sometimes depends on class ranking, with the top of the class able to select his / her choice, to include fixed wing.
After all of that explanation about us, my question of curiosity is, would this young man in question be better off applying as a WO Aviator as a quicker road? Would there be an advantage or disadvantage either way? Would he get more actual flying time as a WO Aviator? (Assuming, of course, he would consider the option).
In my case, I started as a WO1 in the UH-1, took an Infantry Commission for a short while, then came back as a WO Aviator. I left the active duty Army and stayed Army National Guard while maintaining an airline career. In my civil job, I am an Atlas Air 747 pilot based in Stanstead, UK. I have been activated US Army for three - five years, and now fly only fixed wing in the C-23C Sherpa.
As I said, just curious about your system and how it could be benificial to this young Marine. Also, if your system allows for progression in rank as a reservist, while maintaining a civil career.
I would also tend the same question as advice: What do you want to be doing in ten years?
Out of curiosity:
As a US Army Chief Warrant Officer (CW4) Aviator, and reading between the lines on this thread, it appears that you have a similar structure in your Army Aviation. That is, WO's do the professional flying for the most part. True or not?
In the US Army, WO's are commissioned upon reaching the grade of CW2, after three years as a WO1 Aviator. CW2's and 3's are usually Company level Officers, acting as Unit Trainers and IP's, while CW4's are Battalion level and CW5's are Brigade level specialists.
Our WO1's graduate from flight school with three primary aicraft available; the UH-60, OH-58D, and the AH-64. Assignment to these aircraft sometimes depends on class ranking, with the top of the class able to select his / her choice, to include fixed wing.
After all of that explanation about us, my question of curiosity is, would this young man in question be better off applying as a WO Aviator as a quicker road? Would there be an advantage or disadvantage either way? Would he get more actual flying time as a WO Aviator? (Assuming, of course, he would consider the option).
In my case, I started as a WO1 in the UH-1, took an Infantry Commission for a short while, then came back as a WO Aviator. I left the active duty Army and stayed Army National Guard while maintaining an airline career. In my civil job, I am an Atlas Air 747 pilot based in Stanstead, UK. I have been activated US Army for three - five years, and now fly only fixed wing in the C-23C Sherpa.
As I said, just curious about your system and how it could be benificial to this young Marine. Also, if your system allows for progression in rank as a reservist, while maintaining a civil career.
I would also tend the same question as advice: What do you want to be doing in ten years?
Last edited by Tex; 19th Dec 2004 at 17:03.
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Tex
You cannot join the AAC as a direct entry NCO. You normally have to join another Regiment or Corps as a Private Soldier and reach the rank of Cpl usually with a recommendation of promotion to Sgt. You then have to apply to do the Army Pilots, course which includes a short grading course. This would be a very long and risky strategy for somebody wishing to pursue a career as an aviator.
Erskine,
I would suggest applying to the Fleet Air Arm. They are increasing the number of Pilots and Observers they are recruiting next year. There are a wide variety of RW to choose from and the opportunity of FW too. A Green lid is also beneficial for Jungly/847 NAS roles.
Jucky
You cannot join the AAC as a direct entry NCO. You normally have to join another Regiment or Corps as a Private Soldier and reach the rank of Cpl usually with a recommendation of promotion to Sgt. You then have to apply to do the Army Pilots, course which includes a short grading course. This would be a very long and risky strategy for somebody wishing to pursue a career as an aviator.
Erskine,
I would suggest applying to the Fleet Air Arm. They are increasing the number of Pilots and Observers they are recruiting next year. There are a wide variety of RW to choose from and the opportunity of FW too. A Green lid is also beneficial for Jungly/847 NAS roles.
Jucky
You cannot join the AAC as a direct entry NCO
You normally have to join another Regiment or Corps as a Private Soldier
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Just to correct Jucky.....
You can join the AAC as an airtrooper directly. You would then initially serve as groundcrew supporting aircraft and related operations.
To apply for pilot as a soldier (in any Regt/Corps not just the AAC) you need to be a L/Cpl recommended for promotion to Cpl with 4 years serivce (although this may be changing soon apparently).
Hope that helps
You can join the AAC as an airtrooper directly. You would then initially serve as groundcrew supporting aircraft and related operations.
To apply for pilot as a soldier (in any Regt/Corps not just the AAC) you need to be a L/Cpl recommended for promotion to Cpl with 4 years serivce (although this may be changing soon apparently).
Hope that helps
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Erskine,
Trust me, if flying is in your blood then you do not (I repeat DO NOT) want to go anywhere near the Army Air Corps. I am more than willing to get 'shot down in flames' by my colleagues, but consider the following:
1. Aged 27-30'ish you will be whisked off to a desk job because the people that manage your career actually believe that being Flight Commander is the same as being a Tank Sgt (fact).
2. Unless you are selected for Squadron Command the chances of you flying again after said desk jobs are becoming scarce and if you do get to command a squadron you haven't flown for so long it takes you at least half the posting to catch up with things in the cockpit and secondly you have so much niff naff and triv to sort out you never have the time to be able to focus on actually commanding your squadron.
3. The Army Air Corps does not have the facilities or infrastructure of the other two Services. It is the poor cousin in Aviation and as there is so much resistence by the Blackadder style leadership to forge a cohesive Joint way forward, then that will always be the future of the Army Air Corps.
4. If you want to spend your life in a trench or being a part of the 'Maroon Airborne 'Machine' then the Army Air Corps is for you. If you want to neglect everything else that is going on the MoD and focus on one Brigade, then join the Army Air Corps. The other 2 Services will offer variation of work with different formations before the Odiham, Belize and Brunei boys all jump to defend - how much of the Army Air Corps effort is expended in 16 Air Assault Brigade (90% ish).
5. If you want to be properly resourced for your flying, then the Army Air Corps is not for you. Both of the Fleet Air Arm and Royal Air Force have one focus, to get the airmen airborne. The Army Air Corps still have this weird idea that they are soldiers first. Might have worked with Skeeters and Scouts but the equivalent capability of a Harrier does not see Harrier pilots flying from a ploughed up quagmire with no weather forecast. I look in envy everytime I fly into an RN/RAF Air Station.
6. If you still want to be married then look to the other 2 Services. The Army Air Corps is notorius for writing superb policy papers (written by the very people that are pulled out of flying aged 28 but dont see the field army for 5-10 years). The flaw in their policy papers that look superb to the generals but the reality is that the policy papers cannot be manned! Everyone thinks the problem has gone away, but it has just been passed onto a Squadron that is already undermanned. Wives can only take so much of one husband doing 2 or 3 'gapped posts' work and husbands can only take so much of not enough ambulance drivers, flight planning staff or bowsers that just making getting airborn so hard to do.
Apologies if I sound negative Erskine, but you should really do as the others suggest. Have a good look around and think where you want to be in ten years time. I can look you straight in the eye and say that the flying is fantastic and the majority of the people you work with are on exactly the same wavelength.
Sadly though, the Army Air Corps is not allowed to be proffesional aviators and therefore my application to transfer to the RAF is currently being processed at Innsworth (along with a few others I hear, and additionally the word on the street is that very few AAC exchange officers are returning from their RN exchanges).
But don't take my word - ask the Careers Office/HQ DAAvn for a visit to a 'working' AAC Regiment.....that will prove them with a challenge in todays climate (i.e. I bet that you are not left alone in a crewroom to 'chew the fat'!)
Best of luck, whatever your choice.
Trust me, if flying is in your blood then you do not (I repeat DO NOT) want to go anywhere near the Army Air Corps. I am more than willing to get 'shot down in flames' by my colleagues, but consider the following:
1. Aged 27-30'ish you will be whisked off to a desk job because the people that manage your career actually believe that being Flight Commander is the same as being a Tank Sgt (fact).
2. Unless you are selected for Squadron Command the chances of you flying again after said desk jobs are becoming scarce and if you do get to command a squadron you haven't flown for so long it takes you at least half the posting to catch up with things in the cockpit and secondly you have so much niff naff and triv to sort out you never have the time to be able to focus on actually commanding your squadron.
3. The Army Air Corps does not have the facilities or infrastructure of the other two Services. It is the poor cousin in Aviation and as there is so much resistence by the Blackadder style leadership to forge a cohesive Joint way forward, then that will always be the future of the Army Air Corps.
4. If you want to spend your life in a trench or being a part of the 'Maroon Airborne 'Machine' then the Army Air Corps is for you. If you want to neglect everything else that is going on the MoD and focus on one Brigade, then join the Army Air Corps. The other 2 Services will offer variation of work with different formations before the Odiham, Belize and Brunei boys all jump to defend - how much of the Army Air Corps effort is expended in 16 Air Assault Brigade (90% ish).
5. If you want to be properly resourced for your flying, then the Army Air Corps is not for you. Both of the Fleet Air Arm and Royal Air Force have one focus, to get the airmen airborne. The Army Air Corps still have this weird idea that they are soldiers first. Might have worked with Skeeters and Scouts but the equivalent capability of a Harrier does not see Harrier pilots flying from a ploughed up quagmire with no weather forecast. I look in envy everytime I fly into an RN/RAF Air Station.
6. If you still want to be married then look to the other 2 Services. The Army Air Corps is notorius for writing superb policy papers (written by the very people that are pulled out of flying aged 28 but dont see the field army for 5-10 years). The flaw in their policy papers that look superb to the generals but the reality is that the policy papers cannot be manned! Everyone thinks the problem has gone away, but it has just been passed onto a Squadron that is already undermanned. Wives can only take so much of one husband doing 2 or 3 'gapped posts' work and husbands can only take so much of not enough ambulance drivers, flight planning staff or bowsers that just making getting airborn so hard to do.
Apologies if I sound negative Erskine, but you should really do as the others suggest. Have a good look around and think where you want to be in ten years time. I can look you straight in the eye and say that the flying is fantastic and the majority of the people you work with are on exactly the same wavelength.
Sadly though, the Army Air Corps is not allowed to be proffesional aviators and therefore my application to transfer to the RAF is currently being processed at Innsworth (along with a few others I hear, and additionally the word on the street is that very few AAC exchange officers are returning from their RN exchanges).
But don't take my word - ask the Careers Office/HQ DAAvn for a visit to a 'working' AAC Regiment.....that will prove them with a challenge in todays climate (i.e. I bet that you are not left alone in a crewroom to 'chew the fat'!)
Best of luck, whatever your choice.
Last edited by Front Seater; 19th Dec 2004 at 19:45.
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A rather lengthy bitch about the AAC there by frontseater and there are some valid points in there I guess.
Without wanting to get into the 'AAC is S**t and everyone alse is great discussion' I would just like to emphasise to Erskine that the AAC is currently going through the most radical shake-up that one could imagine with the intro of AH and there are bound to be some learning points. This is in no way specific to the army and each service has its own gripes as the forces introduce these incredible pieces of kit that are unlike anything that we have ever used before.
By the time Erskine would be in the system this would be reasonably well established and he would more than likely find himself getting converted straight onto AH which is a fantastic opportunity. Yes the flying opportunities for officers are limited and yes that is part of the reason I left to continue my flying career. However, if I had been offered the opportunity to fly AH then I might just have stayed. And that aside, the opportunities outside of flying in the AAC are wide and varied and a break from flying could just be what he wanted. Each to their own.
As long as Eskine goes in under no false illusions (I did and was bitter for a while!) then what is there to lose? He can only gain the opportunity to fly AH and to work with an up and coming Corps.
Anyway, by then it'll all be jointery! But that's a different thread!
The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Without wanting to get into the 'AAC is S**t and everyone alse is great discussion' I would just like to emphasise to Erskine that the AAC is currently going through the most radical shake-up that one could imagine with the intro of AH and there are bound to be some learning points. This is in no way specific to the army and each service has its own gripes as the forces introduce these incredible pieces of kit that are unlike anything that we have ever used before.
By the time Erskine would be in the system this would be reasonably well established and he would more than likely find himself getting converted straight onto AH which is a fantastic opportunity. Yes the flying opportunities for officers are limited and yes that is part of the reason I left to continue my flying career. However, if I had been offered the opportunity to fly AH then I might just have stayed. And that aside, the opportunities outside of flying in the AAC are wide and varied and a break from flying could just be what he wanted. Each to their own.
As long as Eskine goes in under no false illusions (I did and was bitter for a while!) then what is there to lose? He can only gain the opportunity to fly AH and to work with an up and coming Corps.
Anyway, by then it'll all be jointery! But that's a different thread!
The grass is not always greener on the other side.
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I have to agree with elements of what Frontseater said. However I am afraid that he suffers from Single-Service-Itis.
All of the services are strapped for cash. All 3 services are under incredible budgetary constraints that affect everything to do with flying from acquisition to flying rates to servicing.
To state that a Flight Commander job is the same as Tank Commanders Job (Fact) is simply wrong. Ireland is a classic example of where a Flight Commander gets to exercise his leadership in a multi-tasked aviation environment in support of ground ops. I grant you that there are some who foolishly link the power of the AH to that of tanks.
The argument in para 6 is utter tosh! Overstretching is fact for all 3 services who all mucked in together to achieve the goal. As for staying married. I would say (under caveat that I am not a Marriage Guidance councillor) that perhaps the gentleman should take a look at deployment rates for the Navy GLs (6 months shore 6 months sea), C130s crews are forever away. I would say it is what one does when at home that affects the chances of being married. And lastly to accuse the AAC of having any policy is simple untrue!!!!!!!!!!
PotCivvy is right in that the grass is not always greener. A fact that Frontseater may find out if the RAF accept his whinging ass into their fold.
Erskine dear boy. I would say you have more than enough advice to make up your own mind now. Good luck either way.
All of the services are strapped for cash. All 3 services are under incredible budgetary constraints that affect everything to do with flying from acquisition to flying rates to servicing.
To state that a Flight Commander job is the same as Tank Commanders Job (Fact) is simply wrong. Ireland is a classic example of where a Flight Commander gets to exercise his leadership in a multi-tasked aviation environment in support of ground ops. I grant you that there are some who foolishly link the power of the AH to that of tanks.
The argument in para 6 is utter tosh! Overstretching is fact for all 3 services who all mucked in together to achieve the goal. As for staying married. I would say (under caveat that I am not a Marriage Guidance councillor) that perhaps the gentleman should take a look at deployment rates for the Navy GLs (6 months shore 6 months sea), C130s crews are forever away. I would say it is what one does when at home that affects the chances of being married. And lastly to accuse the AAC of having any policy is simple untrue!!!!!!!!!!
PotCivvy is right in that the grass is not always greener. A fact that Frontseater may find out if the RAF accept his whinging ass into their fold.
Erskine dear boy. I would say you have more than enough advice to make up your own mind now. Good luck either way.
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Moss,
As I said the flying is fantastic and the majority of the people I work with are great, but be honest to yourself and provide honest advice.
As to the divorce rate - I will happily retract the rabbit from the hole and to be honest I too am not a marriage guidance counsellor and do not know which branch of the Services of the highest divorce rates (but I bet the AAC's is still above the national average).
As to the Tank Sgt - certainly not my words, but a full Colonel from our Manning Division which had us all putting our heads in our hands.
As I said the flying is fantastic and the majority of the people I work with are great, but be honest to yourself and provide honest advice.
As to the divorce rate - I will happily retract the rabbit from the hole and to be honest I too am not a marriage guidance counsellor and do not know which branch of the Services of the highest divorce rates (but I bet the AAC's is still above the national average).
As to the Tank Sgt - certainly not my words, but a full Colonel from our Manning Division which had us all putting our heads in our hands.
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FS,
He is one reason for genetic engineering. The MCM man in question is a t it and has no concept of the AAC. We should have our own chap up there, not some chinless Cav inbred 'fighting' our corner. I believe we are big enough to be able to do our own fcuking up!!
As to the Tank Sgt - certainly not my words, but a full Colonel from our Manning Division which had us all putting our heads in our hands
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Thank you all for the advice and opinions posted. Far more than I would have expected have made the effort to give real advice based on actual experience, exactly what I was looking for! You have all given me a great deal to think about and I shall let you know how things turn out. Thanks again.
