Typhoon Tranche 2 order signed
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Typhoon Tranche 2 order signed
Daily Telegraph:
Hoon confirms £4.3bn order for combat jets
Defence secretary Geoff Hoon yesterday confirmed that Britain will buy £4.3billion worth of Eurofighter Typhoon jets.
The hurried announcement for an additional 89 combat jets torpedoed a carefully planned day-long press conference to be laid on by the Ministry of Defence tomorrow. It ended two years of speculation over whether the "second tranche" of Eurofighter would ever get signed. The project is already estimated to be six years late and costs have trebled to $100billion (£51billion).
Mr Hoon issued the statement to Parliament after the news started to leak out that Germany, Spain, France and the UK signed their order for 236 jets, worth 13billion, on Tuesday. He said: "This is excellent news for both the Royal Air Force and for United Kingdom industry and represents the achievement of another major milestone for the Typhoon project. "Typhoon will be an outstandingly capable, state-of-the-art aircraft which will form a cornerstone of the RAF's future capability. The Typhoon will be a world beating aircraft and this major investment will provide the RAF with the capability to respond to the challenges and threats we face now and in the future."
Not everyone was so upbeat. Shares in BAE closed up just 0.75 at 238.25p. One analyst said the successful conclusion of tranche two was factored into BAE's share price, adding that in his view "Typhoon is little more than a European job creation scheme".
BAE Systems, which is building 37pc of the jets, issued a brief statement saying it "welcomes" the announcement. A company spokesman admitted "it is not the best timing", with the top brass being wheeled out to trumpet the deal at RAF Northolt tomorrow. Dignitaries such as Mr Hoon and Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup (chief of the air staff) have been invited.
Hoon confirms £4.3bn order for combat jets
Defence secretary Geoff Hoon yesterday confirmed that Britain will buy £4.3billion worth of Eurofighter Typhoon jets.
The hurried announcement for an additional 89 combat jets torpedoed a carefully planned day-long press conference to be laid on by the Ministry of Defence tomorrow. It ended two years of speculation over whether the "second tranche" of Eurofighter would ever get signed. The project is already estimated to be six years late and costs have trebled to $100billion (£51billion).
Mr Hoon issued the statement to Parliament after the news started to leak out that Germany, Spain, France and the UK signed their order for 236 jets, worth 13billion, on Tuesday. He said: "This is excellent news for both the Royal Air Force and for United Kingdom industry and represents the achievement of another major milestone for the Typhoon project. "Typhoon will be an outstandingly capable, state-of-the-art aircraft which will form a cornerstone of the RAF's future capability. The Typhoon will be a world beating aircraft and this major investment will provide the RAF with the capability to respond to the challenges and threats we face now and in the future."
Not everyone was so upbeat. Shares in BAE closed up just 0.75 at 238.25p. One analyst said the successful conclusion of tranche two was factored into BAE's share price, adding that in his view "Typhoon is little more than a European job creation scheme".
BAE Systems, which is building 37pc of the jets, issued a brief statement saying it "welcomes" the announcement. A company spokesman admitted "it is not the best timing", with the top brass being wheeled out to trumpet the deal at RAF Northolt tomorrow. Dignitaries such as Mr Hoon and Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup (chief of the air staff) have been invited.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Typhoon is little more than a European job creation scheme
By my humble calculation, taking the first time I saw EAP prototype stooging above Base Air Depot 2 (going back some, that name!) it's a fifteen year gestation period and then some.
Anyone know of any significant world events in that time that may make the initial design considerations somewhat redundant?
Ouch, just burned my fingers on the match for the blue touchpaper...
"A hurried announcement, indeed."
On the 14th the MoD said:
"Tranche 2 Order for Typhoon Media Facility
A media facility will be held on Friday 17th December 2004 to mark the signature of the contract that will see the delivery of a further tranche of 89 Typhoon aircraft to the RAF.
Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon, Minister for Defence Procurement, Lord Bach, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, Dick Olver, Chairman BAE Systems and Mike Turner, CEO BAE Systems will be in attendance."
This was firmly embargoed......
On the 14th the MoD said:
"Tranche 2 Order for Typhoon Media Facility
A media facility will be held on Friday 17th December 2004 to mark the signature of the contract that will see the delivery of a further tranche of 89 Typhoon aircraft to the RAF.
Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon, Minister for Defence Procurement, Lord Bach, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, Dick Olver, Chairman BAE Systems and Mike Turner, CEO BAE Systems will be in attendance."
This was firmly embargoed......
Long and loud did 't Bungling Baron chuckle....
"By 'eck, Seth", he exclaimed happily as he fondled the ears of his faithful but flatulent whippet Boogeroff, ".. but that's a reet champion result! £48.3M ferr each one. Old Mad Maggie werr reet when she told us that there'd allus br brass in it for thee and me wi't orderrs for 't Airr Forrce!"
"Aye, master", replied the sycophantic Seth, "an' 't second of 't owd Comets the lads at Woodferrd are buildin' has flown, an' all!"
"Well I'll go to the fooot o' ower' sterrs", chortled t' Baron, "That's over 5 yeerrs' werrk we've managed to stretch out from 't Modd boogers. 't lads at 't werrks'll be gettin' a bonus Christmas orange this yeerr! Now then, 'ave theesen' a piece o' pig pancreas pie and a celeberratorry glass o' Dandelion an Burrdock..."
"By 'eck, Seth", he exclaimed happily as he fondled the ears of his faithful but flatulent whippet Boogeroff, ".. but that's a reet champion result! £48.3M ferr each one. Old Mad Maggie werr reet when she told us that there'd allus br brass in it for thee and me wi't orderrs for 't Airr Forrce!"
"Aye, master", replied the sycophantic Seth, "an' 't second of 't owd Comets the lads at Woodferrd are buildin' has flown, an' all!"
"Well I'll go to the fooot o' ower' sterrs", chortled t' Baron, "That's over 5 yeerrs' werrk we've managed to stretch out from 't Modd boogers. 't lads at 't werrks'll be gettin' a bonus Christmas orange this yeerr! Now then, 'ave theesen' a piece o' pig pancreas pie and a celeberratorry glass o' Dandelion an Burrdock..."
Last edited by BEagle; 19th Dec 2004 at 18:56.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: pillar to post.
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Call me naive if you will...
At the risk of sounding like a Daily Mail reader, why can't the nation that made the Lightning, Harrier etc JUST BUILD OUR OWN JETS?
France and Sweden do it. As I understand it, Rafale and Gripen aren't quite as capable as Typhoon, but they are in service because they didn't require 37 commitee meetings and years of political wrangling every time the designers want to change anything.
Or we could go the Japanese route and licence-build F-15s. Stick a BAe radar and RR engines in them, a la phantom. Jobs for the boys and a capable jet, now
Btw I'm not aircrew, but it is saddening to see the same mistakes being made every time the forces, esp the RAF, get anything new.
At the risk of sounding like a Daily Mail reader, why can't the nation that made the Lightning, Harrier etc JUST BUILD OUR OWN JETS?
France and Sweden do it. As I understand it, Rafale and Gripen aren't quite as capable as Typhoon, but they are in service because they didn't require 37 commitee meetings and years of political wrangling every time the designers want to change anything.
Or we could go the Japanese route and licence-build F-15s. Stick a BAe radar and RR engines in them, a la phantom. Jobs for the boys and a capable jet, now
Btw I'm not aircrew, but it is saddening to see the same mistakes being made every time the forces, esp the RAF, get anything new.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Several miles SSW of Watford Gap
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
plebby 1st tourist
Welcome to the world of living in a government department where buying from the US costs jobs in someone's constituency (jobs mean votes) and or effects share prices (prosperity means votes), and building a European ac - allegedly - shows a commitment to Europe. Mind you just buying US is not all its cracked up to be anyone involved in STOVL JCA(JSAF) want to add anything here (STOVL variant = RR engine = jobs = votes; also = less range/payload = less utility than Carrier or CTOL varients)?
As for the Harrier - correct was British; however is now largely American.
Welcome to the world of living in a government department where buying from the US costs jobs in someone's constituency (jobs mean votes) and or effects share prices (prosperity means votes), and building a European ac - allegedly - shows a commitment to Europe. Mind you just buying US is not all its cracked up to be anyone involved in STOVL JCA(JSAF) want to add anything here (STOVL variant = RR engine = jobs = votes; also = less range/payload = less utility than Carrier or CTOL varients)?
As for the Harrier - correct was British; however is now largely American.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
What price the JSF then?
No one has picked up the quote from Jock Stirrup in yesterday's torygraph.
"We should not just compare the cost of the project to initial estimates but to benchmarks against similar projects. The JSF, the plane's main US rival, had cost £40.5 billion in design and development. For the Typhoon the . . . bill is about £25 billion"
So if JSF is the Typhoon's main rival why are we buying both?
OK I know one is a bomber and the other is a fighter-bomber but why buy both then? If we do buy both then we need less of the fighter-bombers!
No one has picked up the quote from Jock Stirrup in yesterday's torygraph.
"We should not just compare the cost of the project to initial estimates but to benchmarks against similar projects. The JSF, the plane's main US rival, had cost £40.5 billion in design and development. For the Typhoon the . . . bill is about £25 billion"
So if JSF is the Typhoon's main rival why are we buying both?
OK I know one is a bomber and the other is a fighter-bomber but why buy both then? If we do buy both then we need less of the fighter-bombers!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Silly Question
just a (pretty stupid) question, Could a Typhoon in wartime be
A. launched from the new RN carriers.
B. be recovered on the new RN carriers.
The main deck or the new carriers was supposed to be about 260m long, the T/O distance for the Typhoon is stated at 300m.
I guess the landing is not really possible, even with the tail hook.
cheers
A. launched from the new RN carriers.
B. be recovered on the new RN carriers.
The main deck or the new carriers was supposed to be about 260m long, the T/O distance for the Typhoon is stated at 300m.
I guess the landing is not really possible, even with the tail hook.
cheers
From Future Aircraft: RN site
The MOD considered all other options very carefully before selecting the JSF as the preferred aircraft for its new aircraft carriers. The other options included a marinised version of the Eurofighter (232 Eurofighters are ordered for the RAF) the American F18E, the French Rafale and an updated Harrier. But the Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) variant JSF emerged as the best option.
The MOD considered all other options very carefully before selecting the JSF as the preferred aircraft for its new aircraft carriers. The other options included a marinised version of the Eurofighter (232 Eurofighters are ordered for the RAF) the American F18E, the French Rafale and an updated Harrier. But the Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) variant JSF emerged as the best option.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There you have it then.
If the Typoon cannot use the carrier but the JSF is the rival to the Tihoon why are we buying ANY of the hoon machines?
The pundits all say we don't need a fighter. The Typhoon can't use carriers and tranche 1 can't bomb. Not only that but it is an 'old' machine albeit extensively modernised since its laucnh 6 years ago <g>.
If the Typoon cannot use the carrier but the JSF is the rival to the Tihoon why are we buying ANY of the hoon machines?
The pundits all say we don't need a fighter. The Typhoon can't use carriers and tranche 1 can't bomb. Not only that but it is an 'old' machine albeit extensively modernised since its laucnh 6 years ago <g>.
After the fiascos with Tornado, and some other BAE and European colborative products, and the delays and wrangling in the Eurofighter programme some cynicism about Typhoon is inevitable and justified, but I'm always astonshed by the sheer ignorance displayed about the programme and the aircraft, and by the touchingly naive belief that the USAcan do no wrong when it comes to advanced aircraft programmes. The 'buy American' argument is all well and good, if you've not looked in any detail at F-22, C-130J, Apache, etc.
The T1 Typhoons WILL bomb. Ensuring that they will be given that capability at Block 5 (and then retrofitting the remainder) has been the main cause of the T2 signature delay.
It's likely that Typhoon's A-G capabilities will eventually be greater than JSF's - except when it comes to range and it will be a more flexible, more versatile platform.
Don't ignore the fact that external carriage of all of the weapons the UK was relying on has just been canned from JSF (no ASRAAM, no Storm Shadow) and that the aircraft's A-A capabilities are as nothing compared to Typhoon's.
Developing a Typhoon with a hook and a new gear would not be rocket science, if you absolutely had to reduce to a single FJ type, but we do not. If we need carriers, the the Typhoon/JSF mix is better than relying only on JSF.
The T1 Typhoons WILL bomb. Ensuring that they will be given that capability at Block 5 (and then retrofitting the remainder) has been the main cause of the T2 signature delay.
It's likely that Typhoon's A-G capabilities will eventually be greater than JSF's - except when it comes to range and it will be a more flexible, more versatile platform.
Don't ignore the fact that external carriage of all of the weapons the UK was relying on has just been canned from JSF (no ASRAAM, no Storm Shadow) and that the aircraft's A-A capabilities are as nothing compared to Typhoon's.
Developing a Typhoon with a hook and a new gear would not be rocket science, if you absolutely had to reduce to a single FJ type, but we do not. If we need carriers, the the Typhoon/JSF mix is better than relying only on JSF.
The 'pundits' PN cites are an interesting lot. Many of them moan about the loss of the SHAR on the one hand, and then inform the world that no-one does air-air combat any more, and if they did, then we could rely on the Americans anyway. They'd also do well to remember :
It is necessary to win the air battle before embarking on the land battle. If this is not done, then operations on land will be conducted at a great disadvantage. (Montgomery, 1944)
If there aren't enough F/A-22s to go around, or if the Americans aren't there (EU operation, perhaps, since El Presidente seems keen on this sort of thing?) and if the opposition are a) reasonably competent b) reasonably well equipped and c) have a BVR capability then having Typhoon is no bad thing...
It is necessary to win the air battle before embarking on the land battle. If this is not done, then operations on land will be conducted at a great disadvantage. (Montgomery, 1944)
If there aren't enough F/A-22s to go around, or if the Americans aren't there (EU operation, perhaps, since El Presidente seems keen on this sort of thing?) and if the opposition are a) reasonably competent b) reasonably well equipped and c) have a BVR capability then having Typhoon is no bad thing...
Suspicion breeds confidence
Archimedes,
Well either there is an air threat or there isn't. If there is then we need to maintain our land and naval air defence and perhaps the projected Typhoon order is justifiable. The problem is that govt has said that there is no air threat and we can get rid of the Shar and reduce other assets. You can't utter that statement and in the same breath justify the procurement of 232 largely air defence a/c.
I hope, if push comes to shove, the Americans don't send us what they sent us in 1939 - their best wishes
Many of them moan about the loss of the SHAR on the one hand, and then inform the world that no-one does air-air combat any more, and if they did, then we could rely on the Americans anyway.
I hope, if push comes to shove, the Americans don't send us what they sent us in 1939 - their best wishes
Hmmm.
I don't think that retiring SHar early and reducing or stopping the Typhoon buy are remotely comparable.
Retiring Shar leaves a short term gap in a small spectrum of capability (carrier-based fleet air defence). A replacement for SHar has already been selected. In the interim Fleet Air Defence can still be provided by other means (land based, allied, SAMs, etc.). We could decide that expeditionary ops involving carriers are something we'll no longer do (in the short or long term), and still be able to do expeditionary warfare (albeit with some restrictions).
From FOC in 2007 Typhoon will be a multi-role platform (even the Tranche 1 jets) replacing Jaguar and Tornado F3, and increasingly augmenting a dwindling GR4 fleet.
Even in the AD role it does more than the SHar, (UKAD, QRA, expeditionary AD/AS, maritime, etc.) and will do so more impressively (6+ BVRAAMs, HMS, longer endurance, longer missile reach, etc.) and so it would be quite possible to decide "the AD mission is less important, so we don't need SHar, but do still need Typhoon."
Carriers provide a capability that is needed infrequently, and one that can realistically and legitimately be provided by Allies, whereas the need for land based AD is 'constant' and therefore must be a national capability.
I don't think that retiring SHar early and reducing or stopping the Typhoon buy are remotely comparable.
Retiring Shar leaves a short term gap in a small spectrum of capability (carrier-based fleet air defence). A replacement for SHar has already been selected. In the interim Fleet Air Defence can still be provided by other means (land based, allied, SAMs, etc.). We could decide that expeditionary ops involving carriers are something we'll no longer do (in the short or long term), and still be able to do expeditionary warfare (albeit with some restrictions).
From FOC in 2007 Typhoon will be a multi-role platform (even the Tranche 1 jets) replacing Jaguar and Tornado F3, and increasingly augmenting a dwindling GR4 fleet.
Even in the AD role it does more than the SHar, (UKAD, QRA, expeditionary AD/AS, maritime, etc.) and will do so more impressively (6+ BVRAAMs, HMS, longer endurance, longer missile reach, etc.) and so it would be quite possible to decide "the AD mission is less important, so we don't need SHar, but do still need Typhoon."
Carriers provide a capability that is needed infrequently, and one that can realistically and legitimately be provided by Allies, whereas the need for land based AD is 'constant' and therefore must be a national capability.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Carriers provide a capability that is needed infrequently, and one that can realistically and legitimately be provided by Allies, whereas the need for land based AD is 'constant' and therefore must be a national capability.
Don't the US have as many F15c based in the UK as we do F3s?
Last edited by Navaleye; 21st Dec 2004 at 11:28.