Last RAF kill
Yes, Him
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Re the Harrier story, Pete Taylor air tested its furniture in 1972 or 73 over northern Germany after a bird strike knacked the engine. After several relight attempts, he banged out, the engine re-lit and off it tootled.
It was intercepted (still squawking emergency?) about half an hour later IIRC by a German F-104 but crashed due fuel exhaustion before they decided about shooting it down or not.
It was intercepted (still squawking emergency?) about half an hour later IIRC by a German F-104 but crashed due fuel exhaustion before they decided about shooting it down or not.
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Sounds just like the Soviet Flogger whose pilot banged out after a flame out in 1989. The engine relit, and it trimmed itself out and decided to auto defect.
The Flogger was intercepted by 2 x F-15Cs from Bitburg as it entered West German airspace, and the UK had a pair of Wattisham F-4s CAPing in the old Amber 37 airway (god did ATC whinge about that!!!) in case it went feet wet. Even the good old Bloodhounds got told to turn the keys in case the fighters lost it!!!
The plan was to shoot it down once it was over the North Sea and away from towns etc. Eventually, the aircraft continued all the way to Belgium where it crashed (tragically killing a Belgian youth) due to fuel starvation.
Regards,
M2
The Flogger was intercepted by 2 x F-15Cs from Bitburg as it entered West German airspace, and the UK had a pair of Wattisham F-4s CAPing in the old Amber 37 airway (god did ATC whinge about that!!!) in case it went feet wet. Even the good old Bloodhounds got told to turn the keys in case the fighters lost it!!!
The plan was to shoot it down once it was over the North Sea and away from towns etc. Eventually, the aircraft continued all the way to Belgium where it crashed (tragically killing a Belgian youth) due to fuel starvation.
Regards,
M2
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Yep! That's it! It was a German Starfighter, not a Lightning! And Yep, that's what happened to the Flogger too (sad as the ending was!).
Right, we've sorted that out!
Now what's all this cr@p from the Navy AGAIN!!
Right, we've sorted that out!
Now what's all this cr@p from the Navy AGAIN!!
Last RAF kill
Quote
(eg: "but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964.")
Waiting for accurate info on this. Circumstantial evidence known: On the night an Indonesian C-130 spread itself over SW Malaya a 60 Sqdn Jav returned to Tengah missing one Firestreak, but with missile shoe still attached, and signs of missile firing. Crew announces 'in flight emergency requiring jettison of missile'. Scepticism on part of groundcrew followed by a end-of-shift briefing on the 'true' story as above, and anyone suggesting otherwise, especially to press, would encounter 'feet not touching the ground, doors slamming, throw away key' syndrome.
Never heard any more. When does the Official Secrets Act expire?
(eg: "but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964.")
Waiting for accurate info on this. Circumstantial evidence known: On the night an Indonesian C-130 spread itself over SW Malaya a 60 Sqdn Jav returned to Tengah missing one Firestreak, but with missile shoe still attached, and signs of missile firing. Crew announces 'in flight emergency requiring jettison of missile'. Scepticism on part of groundcrew followed by a end-of-shift briefing on the 'true' story as above, and anyone suggesting otherwise, especially to press, would encounter 'feet not touching the ground, doors slamming, throw away key' syndrome.
Never heard any more. When does the Official Secrets Act expire?
Peterx60,
Depends.... 30 years is the norm, but there are some documents that have 50, 75 or 100 year classification upon them.
Some documents will be 'weeded' prior to release too. Not sure how FoI might affect this.
And that all assumes that it was written down in the first place! I'd guess, for accounting purposes that the loss of a Firestreak from the inventory would have to be recorded, but of course, if recorded as an emergency....
Depends.... 30 years is the norm, but there are some documents that have 50, 75 or 100 year classification upon them.
Some documents will be 'weeded' prior to release too. Not sure how FoI might affect this.
And that all assumes that it was written down in the first place! I'd guess, for accounting purposes that the loss of a Firestreak from the inventory would have to be recorded, but of course, if recorded as an emergency....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
PeterX60 suggest you write to Steve Clarke at Bentley Priory on 4 Jan 05. The answer should be in the 540 but I will lay odds that it isn't.
You want to frame the question in such a way that the answer will out. If the document is already in the public domain you will be told where to look. You should have the answer by 2 Feb
You want to frame the question in such a way that the answer will out. If the document is already in the public domain you will be told where to look. You should have the answer by 2 Feb
Firestreak had a much bigger warhead than the Sidewinder (designed to make a mess of a Tu-95), so I expect that it would do quite a bit of damage. Would also depend upon where it hit, I guess.
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Hmm! Firestreak vs C130, interesting IR seeker acquisition problem methinks. Suspect you would have to get in pretty close.
Missile failing to fuze correctly could also be a player.
Interesting story ref the Javelin using a Firestreak. I recollect the Javelin Firestreak fit had some particular limitations but I cannot remember exactly what. A glimmer in the grey matter recalls that, due to the missile fire control circuit config, the Javelin had to fire both missiles from the port or starboard wing mountings at the same time. Any ex-Javelin guys on-line to comment?
lm
Missile failing to fuze correctly could also be a player.
Interesting story ref the Javelin using a Firestreak. I recollect the Javelin Firestreak fit had some particular limitations but I cannot remember exactly what. A glimmer in the grey matter recalls that, due to the missile fire control circuit config, the Javelin had to fire both missiles from the port or starboard wing mountings at the same time. Any ex-Javelin guys on-line to comment?
lm
By mid '64 Tengah Javs were a mix, including the redeployed 64 Sqn FAW9R where the inner pylons were long range tanks, only 1 Firestreak per side. Extra fuel came in useful for escorting Beveley/Hastings supply drops and charging around the Sarawak/Indonesian border at low level.
In passing, the erks incredulity at the crew/official story was balanced by disbelief that AI17 would get the beast in firing range, and that a Firestreak would actually hit anything.
In passing, the erks incredulity at the crew/official story was balanced by disbelief that AI17 would get the beast in firing range, and that a Firestreak would actually hit anything.
Gentleman Aviator
Back to the 208 Sqn question....
I'm not that old but ISTR from my first tour on 78 Sqn (70-71) reading in the F540 that the 208 Sqn action had occurred.
Why was it in 78's 540?? IIRC the action was defending a 78 Sqn Dakota, hence the mention of it.
And why did it catch my eye? At the time 208 were also Gulf-based, and the "our sqn saved yours in 194whatever" banter was not unheard.....
..... then again, they do say that the older you get, the more accurately you remember things that never happened.......
I'm not that old but ISTR from my first tour on 78 Sqn (70-71) reading in the F540 that the 208 Sqn action had occurred.
Why was it in 78's 540?? IIRC the action was defending a 78 Sqn Dakota, hence the mention of it.
And why did it catch my eye? At the time 208 were also Gulf-based, and the "our sqn saved yours in 194whatever" banter was not unheard.....
..... then again, they do say that the older you get, the more accurately you remember things that never happened.......
Suspicion breeds confidence
Wasn't Firestreak supposed to have a theoretical head-on IR capability? IIRC the heat generated on the leading edges of a wing caused by supersonic airflow was enough for its seeker to lock on to. Was it ever tested?
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Correct, Lightning mounted Redtops had a front-hemisphere capability. IR acquisition for launch needed a bit more 'oomph' than would be available from 'supersonic flight effects'. Dependent on closing speed, we are talking several miles range at launch. A quick burst of burner from the 'target' was always required for training. Jindi flare was excellent of course!
Redtop was also carried by the Sea Vixen, not totally sure after all this time if they had a true front-hemisphere capability, possibly only high angle-off. Step-in a Sea Vixen man please.
lm
Redtop was also carried by the Sea Vixen, not totally sure after all this time if they had a true front-hemisphere capability, possibly only high angle-off. Step-in a Sea Vixen man please.
lm
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A variation on the initial question, oh wise ones.............
When did we have the last 'Ace'? Also - was an Ace one with 4 confirmed kills? Help appreciated, chaps.
When did we have the last 'Ace'? Also - was an Ace one with 4 confirmed kills? Help appreciated, chaps.
Technically, Britain has never had aces, since the concept was deemed to be inappropriate by Trenchard when he was GOC RFC in France...
However, assuming that the recognition of five victories is the criteria, the last British 'ace' would have been in WW2 or Korea. While I know that a couple of the pilots flying F-86s on exchange were already aces, I'm not sure whether any of the other chaps who scored victories raised their tally to five by gaining a kill. (I feel a visit to the college library coming on...)
Since then AFAIK, the nearest to 'acedom' that any UK pilot has been is 3 victories - a tally shared by Sharkey Ward and Dave Morgan in the Falklands.
<leaves desk for library>
However, assuming that the recognition of five victories is the criteria, the last British 'ace' would have been in WW2 or Korea. While I know that a couple of the pilots flying F-86s on exchange were already aces, I'm not sure whether any of the other chaps who scored victories raised their tally to five by gaining a kill. (I feel a visit to the college library coming on...)
Since then AFAIK, the nearest to 'acedom' that any UK pilot has been is 3 victories - a tally shared by Sharkey Ward and Dave Morgan in the Falklands.
<leaves desk for library>
T'other one...
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