Flying training questions 1
Thread Starter
Flying training questions 1
I'm writing a no-notice article on RAF FJ pilot training from ab initio to frontline. Perhaps because of the recent changes, official pubs and online resources are contradictory, outdated, incomplete or confusing. The deadline is a matter of days. There is not time to get answers from Corporate Comms, but I don't think that I'm asking anything that's remotely sensitive. Any help would be gratefully received.
A
What are the academic minima required today? What is the minimum standard realistically acceptable to OASC? Apart from the obvious – asthma, hayfever, diabetes, epilepsy, what diseases are an automatic ‘PMU’ for pilot candidates at OASC? If anyone cares to post the key eyesight and anthropomorphic height/weight/knee-to-buttock limits for pilot training, I’ll happily incorporate them in the article.
B
What proportion of EFTS pilots are UAS UBs, VRs and direct entrants? Roughly what are the numbers? (I know that “DEFTS is a Military Flying School tasked to train up to 130 Army and Royal Navy student pilots every year.” An RAF comparison would be interesting.)
C
After all the recent reorganisation, who uses the 160 hp Fireflies, and who uses the 260s? How has this changed?
D
Several official and semi-official sites talk about 14 UASs, though I still count 15 flying units.
1) Aberdeen, Dundee & St Andrews UAS
2) University of Birmingham AS
3) Bristol UAS
4) Cambridge UAS
5) East Lowlands UAS
6) East Midlands UAS
7) Universities of Glasgow & Strathclyde AS
8) Liverpool UAS
9) University of London AS
10) Manchester & Salford Universities AS
11) Northumbrian Universities AS
12) Oxford University AS
13) Southampton UAS
14) University of Wales AS
15) Yorkshire Universities AS
Where am I going wrong? And when did Queens fold? Weren’t there 17 UASs a few years ago?
E
I read that: “VRs are unsponsored officer cadets (OCs) of the RAFVR and as such are eligible only for attendance pay, travel costs and messing allowance.” In my day they were airmen with the status of officer cadets (Cadet Pilots). Is this no longer the case? If not why not (equality of status with the UBs, perhaps?) When did it change? Does VR membership still last for six terms as standard, or do most VRs now go on until they finish their studies?
F
I read that “Sponsored University Bursars are sponsored students, selected by the Directorate of Recruiting and Selection (DofR&S). They are Officer Cadets (OCs) who receive a bursary, which varies in value according to branch, on the understanding that they will, on satisfactory completion of their degree studies and UAS training, join the RAF for at least a short term commission.” Are there no longer University Cadets – Acting Pilot Officers paid an appropriate salary? When did it change?
G
I read that: “On successful completion of IOT, the Officers selected to be pilots are posted to a University Air Squadron (UAS) for ‘Direct Entry Training’ where they will fly 90 hours in a light-weight aircraft, the Tutor. Those Officers who had previously attended a UAS during their studies (and flown 90 hours) are exempt from this stage.”
How about officers who have completed fewer than 90 hours on a UAS (those who join with only five terms to go, for example)?
H
I read that: “Until the disbandment of JEFTS, Yorkshire UAS was one of two UASs in the country to have a "direct entry flight". This flight was formed because JEFTS was running at maximum capacity. This flight took some of the direct entrants that would otherwise have be trained on the Firefly with JEFTS, and gave them the same course as they would have received had they been with JEFTS.” Which was the second UAS with a Direct Entry Flight?
I
I read that: “Further rationalisation of the RAF EFT task in 2003 has seen the closure of the Church Fenton sqn and the transfer of all of the Direct Entrant students to 14 of the UASs for their training.” Which 14? Which ones don’t parent Direct Entrant studes?
A
What are the academic minima required today? What is the minimum standard realistically acceptable to OASC? Apart from the obvious – asthma, hayfever, diabetes, epilepsy, what diseases are an automatic ‘PMU’ for pilot candidates at OASC? If anyone cares to post the key eyesight and anthropomorphic height/weight/knee-to-buttock limits for pilot training, I’ll happily incorporate them in the article.
B
What proportion of EFTS pilots are UAS UBs, VRs and direct entrants? Roughly what are the numbers? (I know that “DEFTS is a Military Flying School tasked to train up to 130 Army and Royal Navy student pilots every year.” An RAF comparison would be interesting.)
C
After all the recent reorganisation, who uses the 160 hp Fireflies, and who uses the 260s? How has this changed?
D
Several official and semi-official sites talk about 14 UASs, though I still count 15 flying units.
1) Aberdeen, Dundee & St Andrews UAS
2) University of Birmingham AS
3) Bristol UAS
4) Cambridge UAS
5) East Lowlands UAS
6) East Midlands UAS
7) Universities of Glasgow & Strathclyde AS
8) Liverpool UAS
9) University of London AS
10) Manchester & Salford Universities AS
11) Northumbrian Universities AS
12) Oxford University AS
13) Southampton UAS
14) University of Wales AS
15) Yorkshire Universities AS
Where am I going wrong? And when did Queens fold? Weren’t there 17 UASs a few years ago?
E
I read that: “VRs are unsponsored officer cadets (OCs) of the RAFVR and as such are eligible only for attendance pay, travel costs and messing allowance.” In my day they were airmen with the status of officer cadets (Cadet Pilots). Is this no longer the case? If not why not (equality of status with the UBs, perhaps?) When did it change? Does VR membership still last for six terms as standard, or do most VRs now go on until they finish their studies?
F
I read that “Sponsored University Bursars are sponsored students, selected by the Directorate of Recruiting and Selection (DofR&S). They are Officer Cadets (OCs) who receive a bursary, which varies in value according to branch, on the understanding that they will, on satisfactory completion of their degree studies and UAS training, join the RAF for at least a short term commission.” Are there no longer University Cadets – Acting Pilot Officers paid an appropriate salary? When did it change?
G
I read that: “On successful completion of IOT, the Officers selected to be pilots are posted to a University Air Squadron (UAS) for ‘Direct Entry Training’ where they will fly 90 hours in a light-weight aircraft, the Tutor. Those Officers who had previously attended a UAS during their studies (and flown 90 hours) are exempt from this stage.”
How about officers who have completed fewer than 90 hours on a UAS (those who join with only five terms to go, for example)?
H
I read that: “Until the disbandment of JEFTS, Yorkshire UAS was one of two UASs in the country to have a "direct entry flight". This flight was formed because JEFTS was running at maximum capacity. This flight took some of the direct entrants that would otherwise have be trained on the Firefly with JEFTS, and gave them the same course as they would have received had they been with JEFTS.” Which was the second UAS with a Direct Entry Flight?
I
I read that: “Further rationalisation of the RAF EFT task in 2003 has seen the closure of the Church Fenton sqn and the transfer of all of the Direct Entrant students to 14 of the UASs for their training.” Which 14? Which ones don’t parent Direct Entrant studes?
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A
Min standard 5 GCSE's A - C including English and Maths. Additionally two A-level passes are required. (Now A/S levels not sure how they work - check careers website) Realistically, well things have probably changed since I went there but generally most people seem to have 9 - 10 GCSE passes A - C and 3 A-levels A - C
B
Not sure.
C
Don't know.
D
There are 14 UASs the confusion is due to East Lowlands and Aberdeen, Dundee & St. Andrews UASs joining to form East of Scotland UAS.
E
All VRs and UBs have identical rank and are airmen with the status of Officer Cadets. Not sure when changes occurred from what you remembered, certainly not in past 3 years. VRs attest for six terms service, an extension to service is drawn at the UAS Boss' discretion, normally subject to motivation achievement and an application to the RAF. Most VRs that have made it to the end of their second year on a UAS tend to go into the third year.
F
University Cadetships are reserved only for the medical branch. Pilot UCs were stopped in 2000 if I recall correctly. Officer Cadets can receive a commission into the RAFVR in their final year at the staff's discretion. They are paid at APO rates when appropriate. Currently a pilot bursary is £1000 per year.
G
Officers who have not completed EFT will complete EFT on the Tutor at a UAS. EFT is now 60 hours and has been since early 2003. UAS members joining the RAF as pilot have to complete EFT before an IOT date is issued. I know of one case where a VR left the UAS, having graduated without a place in the RAF, shortly after won a place and was sent back to his former UAS to complete EFT.
H
Sorry don't know
I
All 14, see above.
Min standard 5 GCSE's A - C including English and Maths. Additionally two A-level passes are required. (Now A/S levels not sure how they work - check careers website) Realistically, well things have probably changed since I went there but generally most people seem to have 9 - 10 GCSE passes A - C and 3 A-levels A - C
B
Not sure.
C
Don't know.
D
There are 14 UASs the confusion is due to East Lowlands and Aberdeen, Dundee & St. Andrews UASs joining to form East of Scotland UAS.
E
All VRs and UBs have identical rank and are airmen with the status of Officer Cadets. Not sure when changes occurred from what you remembered, certainly not in past 3 years. VRs attest for six terms service, an extension to service is drawn at the UAS Boss' discretion, normally subject to motivation achievement and an application to the RAF. Most VRs that have made it to the end of their second year on a UAS tend to go into the third year.
F
University Cadetships are reserved only for the medical branch. Pilot UCs were stopped in 2000 if I recall correctly. Officer Cadets can receive a commission into the RAFVR in their final year at the staff's discretion. They are paid at APO rates when appropriate. Currently a pilot bursary is £1000 per year.
G
Officers who have not completed EFT will complete EFT on the Tutor at a UAS. EFT is now 60 hours and has been since early 2003. UAS members joining the RAF as pilot have to complete EFT before an IOT date is issued. I know of one case where a VR left the UAS, having graduated without a place in the RAF, shortly after won a place and was sent back to his former UAS to complete EFT.
H
Sorry don't know
I
All 14, see above.
Everything below subject to the caveat that I haven't remembered everything, and I welcome correction...
A). Academic minima are as mentioned by Slow-Rider; 5 GCSEs minimum grade C and 2 A levels. Your GSCEs have to include English if I remember right.
B). This is a total guess, as the DE Flight system was only slowly ramping up when I finally left the UAS world. On my (then) average UAS of (say) 30 undergraduate pilots, you could expect maybe 6-7 of them to have bursaries, and you'd be matched by around 6-7 DE guys straight from IOT. Again, correct for only one UAS around 2002-2003.
C). 160s were only used by MELIN at Cranwell. 260s were used by Army and RN EFT studes at Barkston, and by RAF JEFTS studes at Church Fenton. Now that JEFTS for the RAF is dead, I don't know where those 260s have gone. The MFTS website claims that the RN use 160s for grading as well, but I was led to believe they use some variant of the Grob 115 (D2 or something?) for that.
D). Queens folded in something like 1995-96. ADStAUAS and ELUAS have, as mentioned, now formed ESUAS. I seem to remember Shrivenham was included in the list, although its aircrew bursars went to Oxford UAS.
E). Slow-rider explains it certainly as well as I could; everyone's an airman, with the "status" of Officer Cadet. The Cadet Pilots seemed to die out in the early to mid nineties, based on my old UAS's photoboards! They get 2 years as standard, with the further one or two at the CO's discretion, unless they're sponsored by then. Your comment:
"VRs are unsponsored officer cadets (OCs) of the RAFVR and as such are eligible only for attendance pay, travel costs and messing allowance.” In my day they were airmen with the status of officer cadets (Cadet Pilots)."
confused me; isn't it pretty much the same thing? They're still airmen with the status of officer cadet, just not called cadet pilots.
F). The Cadetship scheme died a death (glad I got in when I did
) except for doctors and dentists, who are on their own odd system. Up until around 1998, they still gave out the occasional full 4-year pilot cadetship. After then, it was limited to final-year "upgrades" for bursary holders. After about 2000 it died altogether. Bursaries are now means tested to their branch; engineers can expect £4000pa, pilots £1050pa. Suppose it seemed daft to pay a potentially good bloke £50000 at uni when you could pay him £4200
G). If you've done a fair bit, you'll go back to top up. Generally, people'll tell you the cut off's something like mid way. If you've done 30 hours until your Spin Aeros Check, you can expect to go back to the start; if you just had formation and FHT to crack, you'll go to your previous UAS and "top-up."
Certainly in my time you'd almost certainly go to your old UAS to top up; with the new direct entry flights being virtually everywhere I don't know if that's changed. During my years as an undergrad we only had one guy out of maybe 6 or 7 who came to us who wasn't from us originally.
H). I believe it was London UAS, ULAS.
I). See above.
Hope this helps. Where can I read the article?
A). Academic minima are as mentioned by Slow-Rider; 5 GCSEs minimum grade C and 2 A levels. Your GSCEs have to include English if I remember right.
B). This is a total guess, as the DE Flight system was only slowly ramping up when I finally left the UAS world. On my (then) average UAS of (say) 30 undergraduate pilots, you could expect maybe 6-7 of them to have bursaries, and you'd be matched by around 6-7 DE guys straight from IOT. Again, correct for only one UAS around 2002-2003.
C). 160s were only used by MELIN at Cranwell. 260s were used by Army and RN EFT studes at Barkston, and by RAF JEFTS studes at Church Fenton. Now that JEFTS for the RAF is dead, I don't know where those 260s have gone. The MFTS website claims that the RN use 160s for grading as well, but I was led to believe they use some variant of the Grob 115 (D2 or something?) for that.
D). Queens folded in something like 1995-96. ADStAUAS and ELUAS have, as mentioned, now formed ESUAS. I seem to remember Shrivenham was included in the list, although its aircrew bursars went to Oxford UAS.
E). Slow-rider explains it certainly as well as I could; everyone's an airman, with the "status" of Officer Cadet. The Cadet Pilots seemed to die out in the early to mid nineties, based on my old UAS's photoboards! They get 2 years as standard, with the further one or two at the CO's discretion, unless they're sponsored by then. Your comment:
"VRs are unsponsored officer cadets (OCs) of the RAFVR and as such are eligible only for attendance pay, travel costs and messing allowance.” In my day they were airmen with the status of officer cadets (Cadet Pilots)."
confused me; isn't it pretty much the same thing? They're still airmen with the status of officer cadet, just not called cadet pilots.
F). The Cadetship scheme died a death (glad I got in when I did
) except for doctors and dentists, who are on their own odd system. Up until around 1998, they still gave out the occasional full 4-year pilot cadetship. After then, it was limited to final-year "upgrades" for bursary holders. After about 2000 it died altogether. Bursaries are now means tested to their branch; engineers can expect £4000pa, pilots £1050pa. Suppose it seemed daft to pay a potentially good bloke £50000 at uni when you could pay him £4200 G). If you've done a fair bit, you'll go back to top up. Generally, people'll tell you the cut off's something like mid way. If you've done 30 hours until your Spin Aeros Check, you can expect to go back to the start; if you just had formation and FHT to crack, you'll go to your previous UAS and "top-up."
Certainly in my time you'd almost certainly go to your old UAS to top up; with the new direct entry flights being virtually everywhere I don't know if that's changed. During my years as an undergrad we only had one guy out of maybe 6 or 7 who came to us who wasn't from us originally.
H). I believe it was London UAS, ULAS.
I). See above.
Hope this helps. Where can I read the article?
Firefly 260s are used for RN EFT, Army EFT and RAF MELIN. Firefly 160s are used for Army Grading.
ADStAUAS + ELUAS = ESUAS. QUAS closed in 96. Shrivenham (RMCSAS) closed in 2000.
The RAF (and RN) EFT course is now 62 hours for all, though undergraduates are expected to fly more just to maintain currency.
No DE students fly with UGSAS, due to lack of military accommodation and compromised training at Glasgow airport.
PM covers source of further detail.
ADStAUAS + ELUAS = ESUAS. QUAS closed in 96. Shrivenham (RMCSAS) closed in 2000.
The RAF (and RN) EFT course is now 62 hours for all, though undergraduates are expected to fly more just to maintain currency.
No DE students fly with UGSAS, due to lack of military accommodation and compromised training at Glasgow airport.
PM covers source of further detail.
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Some UAS bursars/VR's get promoted to the rank of Acting Pilot Officer (at CO's discretion).
UB's wear the blue and white IOT style tapes, the VR's wear plain white tapes.
58KG approx is the minimum wieght for pilot.
The second UAS IIRC was UWAS (Wales) as there was a two page feature spread on it in RAF news when they first started putting DE's through with the UAS's.
UB's wear the blue and white IOT style tapes, the VR's wear plain white tapes.
58KG approx is the minimum wieght for pilot.
The second UAS IIRC was UWAS (Wales) as there was a two page feature spread on it in RAF news when they first started putting DE's through with the UAS's.
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Dug out a medical form from 2003, things may have changed slightly but should be in the "ball park".
Pilot
Weight
56.4 - 94kgs
Functional Reach
720 - 900mm
Sitting Height
865 - 990mm
Buttock - Knee
560 - 660mm
Buttock- Heel
1000 - 1200mm
Hope this is useful.
SR
Pilot
Weight
56.4 - 94kgs
Functional Reach
720 - 900mm
Sitting Height
865 - 990mm
Buttock - Knee
560 - 660mm
Buttock- Heel
1000 - 1200mm
Hope this is useful.
SR
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Hey Jacko, where can we read this article? It is good to see that someone actually wants to get some facts about what they are about to write.
Good luck with your hunt for info, although most of your questions appear to have been answered.
DS
Good luck with your hunt for info, although most of your questions appear to have been answered.
DS
Thread Starter
Thanks to all for the answers - I'd really taken my eye off the EFT 'ball' and was amazed how much had changed since my day.... which was early Bulldog era, and not Avro Tutor era, before you ask.
It's a nice time to write such an article, since so much is about to change with MFTS.
There will be a number of articles relating to training resulting from this. The first of them will be in Air Farces Monthly.....
It's a nice time to write such an article, since so much is about to change with MFTS.
There will be a number of articles relating to training resulting from this. The first of them will be in Air Farces Monthly.....
noprobs
I was under the distinct impression that with JEFTS having folded there are no more Fireflys in the EFT system (certainly not at RAF bases anyway). All EFT is done on the Tutor now, isn't it?
I was under the distinct impression that with JEFTS having folded there are no more Fireflys in the EFT system (certainly not at RAF bases anyway). All EFT is done on the Tutor now, isn't it?
