military CPL requirements
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military CPL requirements
anyone know the requirements to gain a JAA CPL if you are already an RAF pilot? been wading through the CAA site amongst others but cant seem to find anything. of course i am just a truckie so not the smartest
Do you have 2000TT?
If so, see LASORS Section D3.
To download LASORS, see: http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1191
I often wonder how much money my unsolicited work on this some years ago has saved the RAF pilots who've taken advantage of it.....
If so, see LASORS Section D3.
To download LASORS, see: http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1191
I often wonder how much money my unsolicited work on this some years ago has saved the RAF pilots who've taken advantage of it.....
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thanks for the link to lasors though it leaves me a bit confused. going by D3.3 to gain a CPL you have to meet the same criteria as an ATPL, ie. the magical 1000hrs captain as part of 1500p1. am i just reading this wrong? seems that with my 1200 total / 700 p1 / 30 captain i wont be getting much more than a ppl.
J
You could always consider doing ALL the exams like so many Mil ME pilots have already done and are still doing. The scheme was designed so that you would have to do do nigh on a full flying career to qualify. This was to avoid people jumping ship early without having to consider a serious bit of grey-matter/financial strain.
You could always consider doing ALL the exams like so many Mil ME pilots have already done and are still doing. The scheme was designed so that you would have to do do nigh on a full flying career to qualify. This was to avoid people jumping ship early without having to consider a serious bit of grey-matter/financial strain.
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im well aware of why the scheme has been set up and that many are currently taking advantage of it. i am considering doing all the exams, i was merely surprised that there is no real distinction between CPL and ATPl in terms of qualification.
Juliet, the idea was that this was a recruiting and retention incentive. In other words, you have to achieve 2000TT before the scheme kicks in. It then depends upon the type of flying you've done in the RAF; pretty obviously TriStar/VC10 etc time is more relevant to ATPL equivalence than rotting around the weeds at high speed in a FJ - fun though that might be!
The last thing that was needed was some 'Minimum time, sign up and poke off' scheme which would facilitate early exit from the Service. In any case, that would have killed things stone dead. The scheme which was finally agreed between the RAF and the CAA strikes a good balance between time served, type of flying achieved, experience gained, the needs of the Service and the expectation of the individual in post-Service life.
<2000TT - you don't qualify at all.
>2000TT - you get some exceptionally good credits.
Decide which you wish to do - it's your choice... But all to do with retention incentives.
Only 30 hours PIC in 1200 TT? Is that normal these days? Of that 30 PIC, how much is on anything other than light aeroplanes?
The last thing that was needed was some 'Minimum time, sign up and poke off' scheme which would facilitate early exit from the Service. In any case, that would have killed things stone dead. The scheme which was finally agreed between the RAF and the CAA strikes a good balance between time served, type of flying achieved, experience gained, the needs of the Service and the expectation of the individual in post-Service life.
<2000TT - you don't qualify at all.
>2000TT - you get some exceptionally good credits.
Decide which you wish to do - it's your choice... But all to do with retention incentives.
Only 30 hours PIC in 1200 TT? Is that normal these days? Of that 30 PIC, how much is on anything other than light aeroplanes?
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beagle - captaincy time not on light singles - not much! surely you have seen this in your experience. you get very little actual captaincy time during flying training if you go straight into the multi stream. of course once you hit a sqn your total time rockets up, to the extent that the next time that you record anything in the 'captain' column you could already have well over 2000 total. as i said before though i am completely aware that the scheme is set up for retention purposes, merely surprised that the CPL is treated the same as the ATPL. anyway, thanks for the link, ill get my head into the books and study!
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This is possible after one tour multi engine as a co pilot. The 30 hours will be the jetstream and Basic. Hopefully juliet will move to the LHseat and start building up those P1 hours.
Under JARs, the ATPL is a much more senior licence than a CPL. Mil accreditation for the ATPL requires 2000TT, of which 1500 must be on approved ME a/c as PI, including 1000P1C and 500PICU/S.
When you've scaled those dizzy heights, all you need is an IR observed by the CAA, a Class 1 medical and to pass ATPL Air Law. Fill out the form, pay the dosh, wait for the licence to arrive. Worth staying in for!
But only 30 - thirty - hours as captain? And that only on light aeroplanes?? Is that really all they give you these days? How on earth do you ever consolidate you airmanship as a military pilot? On the 'old' UAS/BFTS system, I had 265 TT, 92 PIC when I was awarded my wings, including 44 hrs IF. Of that 127 hrs was on the JP, of which 37 was PIC. Including night flying on the JP. Do you get any solo night flying these days - even if only on light aeroplanes?
Note that civvies require not less than 100 hrs PIC just to take the CPL Skill Test, let alone the IR Skill Test....
When you've scaled those dizzy heights, all you need is an IR observed by the CAA, a Class 1 medical and to pass ATPL Air Law. Fill out the form, pay the dosh, wait for the licence to arrive. Worth staying in for!
But only 30 - thirty - hours as captain? And that only on light aeroplanes?? Is that really all they give you these days? How on earth do you ever consolidate you airmanship as a military pilot? On the 'old' UAS/BFTS system, I had 265 TT, 92 PIC when I was awarded my wings, including 44 hrs IF. Of that 127 hrs was on the JP, of which 37 was PIC. Including night flying on the JP. Do you get any solo night flying these days - even if only on light aeroplanes?
Note that civvies require not less than 100 hrs PIC just to take the CPL Skill Test, let alone the IR Skill Test....
Last edited by BEagle; 6th Oct 2004 at 21:06.
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Well if expensive glossy brochures from PMA are to be believed, the future of Aunty Betty's Airline training scheme is to be no more, (supposedl we are to be overjoyed at the prospect of tours on the ground????!!). As I understand, most first/second tourists can expect grouncrew tour? GREAT.... 
However, with Phat PVR payoffs, surely the 500 Hr p1 JAA exam "frozen" ATPL will get crews into the airlines to build hours? Or is this purely cr*p and is there more to it than a Bristol JAR Ex ml roundschool course? Crews may have to take a temporary pay cut, surely the tax free PVR payoff however will cover this? Are the CAA likely to move the goalposts to a more realistic standard?
Third question,
does anyone else see a further retention issue approximately 2 years down the road? Looking across to the figures, recruitment vs. Supply, civvie sector does not look as if they can supply half the number of required crews for expansion/replacement purposes.... or is this just rumour and speculation also? What happens when we chuck all of our most experienced Chaps?
However, with Phat PVR payoffs, surely the 500 Hr p1 JAA exam "frozen" ATPL will get crews into the airlines to build hours? Or is this purely cr*p and is there more to it than a Bristol JAR Ex ml roundschool course? Crews may have to take a temporary pay cut, surely the tax free PVR payoff however will cover this? Are the CAA likely to move the goalposts to a more realistic standard?
Third question,
does anyone else see a further retention issue approximately 2 years down the road? Looking across to the figures, recruitment vs. Supply, civvie sector does not look as if they can supply half the number of required crews for expansion/replacement purposes.... or is this just rumour and speculation also? What happens when we chuck all of our most experienced Chaps?
Are you sure that you don't mean RAFCAS or Link-up?
Were the hard-won accreditation scheme to be discontinued, there would be little incentive for people to stay on until they'd achieved their 2000TT, 1500 PIC and it'd be back to people working hard in their free time to obain a fATPL by the 'conventional' route - 14 exams, MEP Class Rating and IR on a PA34 etc. So you'd probably lose more people earlier in their careers...... As was happening before the accreditation system came in.
From the TGDA site (still not updated...why not?):
"To qualify for credits under the military accreditation scheme pilots must have a minimum 2000 total flying hours on military aircraft, of which 1500 hrs must be Pilot in Command (max 500 PIC under supervision/Co-pilot P1) of fixed wing aircraft. Those pilots who have completed a recognised ME OCU and who can show 1500 hrs PIC on approved ME aircraft will be considered for accreditation as experienced ME pilots. Those pilots not meeting the ME criteria in full, but who are otherwise eligible, will also be accredited but to a lesser degree."
No 2000TT & 1500PIC = No accreditation. Those ARE realistic figures; the idea was never to give a quick, early path into the airlines but to recognise the experience gained by suitably qualified military pilots. Yes, you'll have to put up with a few years of bull$hit to meet the accreditation minima - or else do your own fATPL in your own time.
Were the hard-won accreditation scheme to be discontinued, there would be little incentive for people to stay on until they'd achieved their 2000TT, 1500 PIC and it'd be back to people working hard in their free time to obain a fATPL by the 'conventional' route - 14 exams, MEP Class Rating and IR on a PA34 etc. So you'd probably lose more people earlier in their careers...... As was happening before the accreditation system came in.
From the TGDA site (still not updated...why not?):
"To qualify for credits under the military accreditation scheme pilots must have a minimum 2000 total flying hours on military aircraft, of which 1500 hrs must be Pilot in Command (max 500 PIC under supervision/Co-pilot P1) of fixed wing aircraft. Those pilots who have completed a recognised ME OCU and who can show 1500 hrs PIC on approved ME aircraft will be considered for accreditation as experienced ME pilots. Those pilots not meeting the ME criteria in full, but who are otherwise eligible, will also be accredited but to a lesser degree."
No 2000TT & 1500PIC = No accreditation. Those ARE realistic figures; the idea was never to give a quick, early path into the airlines but to recognise the experience gained by suitably qualified military pilots. Yes, you'll have to put up with a few years of bull$hit to meet the accreditation minima - or else do your own fATPL in your own time.
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A CPL is of limited use to you. You will have to take the ATPL ground examinations anyway (unless you wait until you're 'accredited'). Once you have the exams, MEP CLass rating and Instrument Rating, you will be awarded a so-called 'frozen' ATPL (actually a CPL+IR). Your licence becomes a full ATPL ('unfrozen') once you have 1500 hours including the requisite number of P1 hours (see LASORS).
If you intend to get yourself an ATPL before you reach the requisite hours for military accreditation, it's going to cost you a heap of money. Having said that, recruiting for the airlines is picking up, and military pilots are held in high regard....
If you intend to get yourself an ATPL before you reach the requisite hours for military accreditation, it's going to cost you a heap of money. Having said that, recruiting for the airlines is picking up, and military pilots are held in high regard....
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Just feed her plenty of wine, then her powers of speech mysteriously disappear! 
As for jobs, CVs will be accepted only when accompanied by an envelope stuffed full of used tenners... Oh, alright. A pint, then.
As for jobs, CVs will be accepted only when accompanied by an envelope stuffed full of used tenners... Oh, alright. A pint, then.
After taxi time, but there are limits. See LASORS:
PLD has for many years recognised military flying experience and have considered military flying hours to be on a par with those gained in civilian flying, therefore when a military pilot applies for a civilian licence the CAA will accept all the flying hours recorded in their military flying logbook, and in addition it has been agreed that military pilots should also be credited for their taxi times.
The maximum taxi time credit PLD will accept is 5% of the total military airborne hours, up to a maximum of 75 hours credit against the ATPL(A) and 10 hours credit against the CPL(A). This corresponds to the average amount of taxi hours credited for civilian pilots under the chock to chock scheme. The times are an allowance to be added to each sortie as follows:-
Taxi Allowance Times:
Fixed Wing Training Aircraft: 10 mins
Fast Jets: 10 mins
Multi-Engined Transport Aircraft: 15 mins
Display Flying: 5 mins
Wheeled Helicopter - Airfield Operations: 5 mins
Wheeled Helicopter - Field Operations: Nil
Skidded Helicopters: Nil
Aircraft Carrier Operations: Nil
However, if you have the sense to keep a CAP409 and log your military hours in that in accordance with civil methods, you should be able to claim the full time from chocks-to-chocks without any 'allowances' or 'maximum credits' which apply only to hours logged in a military logbook. It's worth the effort (barely any) needed!
PLD has for many years recognised military flying experience and have considered military flying hours to be on a par with those gained in civilian flying, therefore when a military pilot applies for a civilian licence the CAA will accept all the flying hours recorded in their military flying logbook, and in addition it has been agreed that military pilots should also be credited for their taxi times.
The maximum taxi time credit PLD will accept is 5% of the total military airborne hours, up to a maximum of 75 hours credit against the ATPL(A) and 10 hours credit against the CPL(A). This corresponds to the average amount of taxi hours credited for civilian pilots under the chock to chock scheme. The times are an allowance to be added to each sortie as follows:-
Taxi Allowance Times:
Fixed Wing Training Aircraft: 10 mins
Fast Jets: 10 mins
Multi-Engined Transport Aircraft: 15 mins
Display Flying: 5 mins
Wheeled Helicopter - Airfield Operations: 5 mins
Wheeled Helicopter - Field Operations: Nil
Skidded Helicopters: Nil
Aircraft Carrier Operations: Nil
However, if you have the sense to keep a CAP409 and log your military hours in that in accordance with civil methods, you should be able to claim the full time from chocks-to-chocks without any 'allowances' or 'maximum credits' which apply only to hours logged in a military logbook. It's worth the effort (barely any) needed!
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Oct 2004 at 21:41.