Typhoons export chances?(Merged)
I'd always understood that the F-16 was unstable, and recall various Farnborough display pilots saying so in the early days, when it first came over.
Suspicion breeds confidence
I think Jacko is right, I'm sure I saw some F16 sales blurb which said it was the first a/c designed to be unstable from the outset. Mind you that was 30 yrs ago.
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The F-16 is unstable. After engine failure, it's controllable as long as the EPU has fuel, then it's curtains.....and time to leave and take the furniture with you. 
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With regards to EMP - did they not overcome this in the late eighties??? last I heard was that the had a Gamma detector that earthed down the equipment before the pulse hit - Hard to do that on an aircraft I suppose - where's the earth! - Bring back Valves ala the foxbat!
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Typhoon Export
Let's recap
On the off chance that someone lets off an EMP bomb, Singapore should buy F-16, even though the Typhoon beats the pants off the F-16 in the first place.
Chances of Indo getting an EMP bomb?
Chances of Indo going to war with Singapore?
Chances of Typhoon being EMP proof?
Chances of F-16 being EMP proof?
Congrats BlueWolf you have been chosen to represent the UK MoD in the next round of procurement. Go directly to DPA and start writing contracts (sorry I presume you dont work there anyway).
Well done to the Typhoon boys and girls. Firstly for getting the jets out and back, and secondly for giving this project a shot in the arm.
I was lead to beleive that the F-16 was a neutral stability aircraft.
On the off chance that someone lets off an EMP bomb, Singapore should buy F-16, even though the Typhoon beats the pants off the F-16 in the first place.
Chances of Indo getting an EMP bomb?
Chances of Indo going to war with Singapore?
Chances of Typhoon being EMP proof?
Chances of F-16 being EMP proof?
Congrats BlueWolf you have been chosen to represent the UK MoD in the next round of procurement. Go directly to DPA and start writing contracts (sorry I presume you dont work there anyway).
Well done to the Typhoon boys and girls. Firstly for getting the jets out and back, and secondly for giving this project a shot in the arm.
I was lead to beleive that the F-16 was a neutral stability aircraft.
Short Blunt Shock
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Unstable does not necessarily mean unflyable. I would hazard that both aircraft would be unflyable, though, in the event of complete loss of electronics.
Well done to the Typhoon boys - but haven't we been here before? Lets hope our govt now has the balls to resist the inevitable pressure from our US cousins now that they've been shown up. It would be a crying shame if Typhoon were to become the TSR/2 of the 21st century!
Time to see if the 'special relationship' flows both ways.........
(not holding breath..............)
16B
Well done to the Typhoon boys - but haven't we been here before? Lets hope our govt now has the balls to resist the inevitable pressure from our US cousins now that they've been shown up. It would be a crying shame if Typhoon were to become the TSR/2 of the 21st century!
Time to see if the 'special relationship' flows both ways.........
(not holding breath..............)
16B
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samantics chaps
Its rather a definitional arguement, less stable and unstable do eventually meet up somewhere, instability is surely infinite? The more something will tend to want to plough in, the more corrections per second it will require, and so it goes...I guess you have to draw a line between instability and less stable at the point where the human fails and processing power succeeds...?
EMP is a threat but surely there is a newer,cheaper, greater threat from infection to the onboard systems?
Its rather a definitional arguement, less stable and unstable do eventually meet up somewhere, instability is surely infinite? The more something will tend to want to plough in, the more corrections per second it will require, and so it goes...I guess you have to draw a line between instability and less stable at the point where the human fails and processing power succeeds...?
EMP is a threat but surely there is a newer,cheaper, greater threat from infection to the onboard systems?
Last edited by A10 Thundybox; 28th Sep 2004 at 03:55.
Lupus Domesticus
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Hmm. I've been out of both the UK and the industry for many years now.
To answer just noise's points;
1. Undefinable, but probably good
2. Massive
3. Nil
4. Probably nil, but also probably N/A
Correct, I don't work for DPA. If the call were mine, I'd say UK go for a mix of F-15 and Gripen until such time as you can build your own replacement without interference from Europeans and other incompetents.
And I believe my definition of instability is fairly close to that of John Farley.
To answer just noise's points;
1. Undefinable, but probably good
2. Massive
3. Nil
4. Probably nil, but also probably N/A
Correct, I don't work for DPA. If the call were mine, I'd say UK go for a mix of F-15 and Gripen until such time as you can build your own replacement without interference from Europeans and other incompetents.
And I believe my definition of instability is fairly close to that of John Farley.
"If the call were mine, I'd say UK go for a mix of F-15 and Gripen until such time as you can build your own replacement without interference from Europeans and other incompetents."
F-15 is inferior to Typhoon, why would we buy it?
Gripen is inferior to Typhoon, but it would be a great interim aeroplane and a useful addition in a high:low mix. But it's made by European 'incompetents'.
F-15 is inferior to Typhoon, why would we buy it?
Gripen is inferior to Typhoon, but it would be a great interim aeroplane and a useful addition in a high:low mix. But it's made by European 'incompetents'.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Chances of Typhoon being EMP proof? - Nil
Nil? You speak with what authority?
"...Ultra Electronics Electrics Division (UEED)...supply the pilot's Stick Top and Throttle Top for the Eurofighter Typhoon Aircraft, and are therefore responsible for the design and test requirements referenced in the equipment Specification. One of these requirements is Nuclear Hardening."
"QinetiQ, as one of the few global companies that currently offers EMP consultancy, is working with the Typhoon Integrated Project Team and overseeing the work to ensure the aircraft will survive an EMP."
BAe EMP tools
Eurofighter test generators:
SG NEMP-EFA 1, SG NEMP-EFA 2
Pulse simulators according to the EuroFighter-specification SPE-J-000-E-1000 / chapter 4.3.5 (Issue 1,1991-02-14)....With these simulators / test systems equipment or installations can be tested to direct and indirect electromagnetic effects of a nuclear explosion.
An EMC test system from Rohde & Schwarz has gone into operation MTU in Munich. The company is now able to carry out its own EMC tests on engine control systems, test equipment for control systems and ground handling equipment The system allows tests to various regulations such as EFA standard SPE-J-000-E-1000.
Nil? You speak with what authority?
"...Ultra Electronics Electrics Division (UEED)...supply the pilot's Stick Top and Throttle Top for the Eurofighter Typhoon Aircraft, and are therefore responsible for the design and test requirements referenced in the equipment Specification. One of these requirements is Nuclear Hardening."
"QinetiQ, as one of the few global companies that currently offers EMP consultancy, is working with the Typhoon Integrated Project Team and overseeing the work to ensure the aircraft will survive an EMP."
BAe EMP tools
Eurofighter test generators:
SG NEMP-EFA 1, SG NEMP-EFA 2
Pulse simulators according to the EuroFighter-specification SPE-J-000-E-1000 / chapter 4.3.5 (Issue 1,1991-02-14)....With these simulators / test systems equipment or installations can be tested to direct and indirect electromagnetic effects of a nuclear explosion.
An EMC test system from Rohde & Schwarz has gone into operation MTU in Munich. The company is now able to carry out its own EMC tests on engine control systems, test equipment for control systems and ground handling equipment The system allows tests to various regulations such as EFA standard SPE-J-000-E-1000.
Lupus Domesticus
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Hello again ORAC old chap. And apart from lots of free time and a good search engine, your authority is...what precisely?
Specifications, schmecifications. It's never been tested against one. All we have to go on are glossy brochures and spin. I have been aware of the concept described in your link for some considerable time. I do not believe it will actually work in practice. Time, very probably, will prove one of us correct. If that turns out to be you, I will happily eat humble pie. If it's me, billions will have been wasted, and many good people will die needlessly.
Jacko, Typhoon may prove to be superior to the F-15 in time. On paper, it should be. Until then, Typhoon's record is that and nothing more; on paper. The Eagle's record is in the air. It is a proven system.
And the Swedes are not Europeans. They are Scandinavians. There is a difference. Ask any one of them. Ask me, in fact.
Specifications, schmecifications. It's never been tested against one. All we have to go on are glossy brochures and spin. I have been aware of the concept described in your link for some considerable time. I do not believe it will actually work in practice. Time, very probably, will prove one of us correct. If that turns out to be you, I will happily eat humble pie. If it's me, billions will have been wasted, and many good people will die needlessly.
Jacko, Typhoon may prove to be superior to the F-15 in time. On paper, it should be. Until then, Typhoon's record is that and nothing more; on paper. The Eagle's record is in the air. It is a proven system.
And the Swedes are not Europeans. They are Scandinavians. There is a difference. Ask any one of them. Ask me, in fact.
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Hey, it works with all sorts of things. Look:
'Typhoon may prove to be superior to the Spitfire in time. On paper, it should be. Until then, Typhoon's record is that and nothing more; on paper. The Spitfire's record is in the air. It is a proven system.'
Works for me!
'Typhoon may prove to be superior to the Spitfire in time. On paper, it should be. Until then, Typhoon's record is that and nothing more; on paper. The Spitfire's record is in the air. It is a proven system.'
Works for me!
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Bluewolf
So, can you tell us which platform HAS been tested against one -aside from Enola Gay?
All modern systems are susceptible to EMP, and without adequate protection, most would be fatally affected. ORAC describes just some of the 'protection' procedures being applied to Typhoon - and as I implied in an earlier post, there are others which cannot be described in too much detail. All the next generation combat aircraft will be subject to similar treatment; not glossy brochure or spin - but rigorous development and production measures to give the best guarantees available - with the knowledge gained from earlier aircraft (eg Tornado) that were badly protected to begin with. In all of the foregoing, prey tell us just how different Typhoon differs from the rest of the next.
Your response to Jacko belongs in yesterday's tray. Whilst Typhoon has yet to show its combat capability in-Service, there is now enough demonstrated evidence to claim confidence in its superiority (I deliberately avoided the use of 'potential') - especially in the A/A role. Ask those who have flown both. I acknowledge that the A/S role will depend on customer funding - the 'spec' is there, and achievable. All of that avoids talk of cost of ownership, availability, and all related issues - no longer the sole realm of the marketeers.
You seem a little over-sceptical old chap. And oh yaaaaaah - our Svedish friends are very different - not a little to do with a fondness for the clear stuff, schmecification, and the long white cloud.
So, can you tell us which platform HAS been tested against one -aside from Enola Gay?
All modern systems are susceptible to EMP, and without adequate protection, most would be fatally affected. ORAC describes just some of the 'protection' procedures being applied to Typhoon - and as I implied in an earlier post, there are others which cannot be described in too much detail. All the next generation combat aircraft will be subject to similar treatment; not glossy brochure or spin - but rigorous development and production measures to give the best guarantees available - with the knowledge gained from earlier aircraft (eg Tornado) that were badly protected to begin with. In all of the foregoing, prey tell us just how different Typhoon differs from the rest of the next.
Your response to Jacko belongs in yesterday's tray. Whilst Typhoon has yet to show its combat capability in-Service, there is now enough demonstrated evidence to claim confidence in its superiority (I deliberately avoided the use of 'potential') - especially in the A/A role. Ask those who have flown both. I acknowledge that the A/S role will depend on customer funding - the 'spec' is there, and achievable. All of that avoids talk of cost of ownership, availability, and all related issues - no longer the sole realm of the marketeers.
You seem a little over-sceptical old chap. And oh yaaaaaah - our Svedish friends are very different - not a little to do with a fondness for the clear stuff, schmecification, and the long white cloud.
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quote:- So, can you tell us which platform HAS been tested against one -aside from Enola Gay?
Valiant - dropped the bomb in Oz
B-36 -
B-47 -
B-50 - Flown to see what would happen to an aircraft when a nuke goes off nearby.
Ok, all old aircraft in the age of 'getting to know nukes'...
and not relevent to whether any 'new jets' can withstand it.
Valiant - dropped the bomb in Oz
B-36 -
B-47 -
B-50 - Flown to see what would happen to an aircraft when a nuke goes off nearby.
Ok, all old aircraft in the age of 'getting to know nukes'...
and not relevent to whether any 'new jets' can withstand it.
A lot of the techniques used to protect systems from EMP are the same ones (or similar) as those used to mitigate EMC problems.
EMP weapons (thus far anyway) are short range devices, the effect is limited to with 100m (say) of the weapon. Useful against a communications centre on the ground, not so useful against a fast moving aircraft.....
EMP weapons (thus far anyway) are short range devices, the effect is limited to with 100m (say) of the weapon. Useful against a communications centre on the ground, not so useful against a fast moving aircraft.....
Lupus Domesticus
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jindabyne, I'm not certain that we are actually at loggerheads here.
Yes, I'm sceptical. Very sceptical. Just to give you some background, I am an engineer. I am not an aircraft engineer. I have never served in any military. But I have worked for the UK MoD, albeit that it was a while ago now.
These days I make my living by making wine. I'm on the other side of the world from Typhoon and anything which may concern it.
So perhaps I have no business flouting my opinion here; but I have always admitted to being a guest in this forum.
I'm not sure what you mean by "yesterday's tray" with regard to my response to Jacko. I have crossed swords with the illustrious Jackonicko many times, and though we seldom agree, I do have respect for his knowledge, intellect, contacts and professional opinion. I do think that Jacko still believes I don't like Europeans. This isn't the case. I do, however, believe that aeroplanes are best built under one roof.
Without going into the detail of any of the anti-EMP technologies either available or under development, some of which I have had a little to do with, my fundamental opposition to 5th generation aircraft is the un-soundness of building an airframe which is essentialy un-aerodynamic. I believe we are placing too great a reliance on technology which is as yet unprovable.
As I have said, I believe that such an approach belongs in the same basket as building combustable warships, and putting armoured vehicles onto rubber tyres.
Yes, I'm sceptical. Very sceptical. Just to give you some background, I am an engineer. I am not an aircraft engineer. I have never served in any military. But I have worked for the UK MoD, albeit that it was a while ago now.
These days I make my living by making wine. I'm on the other side of the world from Typhoon and anything which may concern it.
So perhaps I have no business flouting my opinion here; but I have always admitted to being a guest in this forum.
I'm not sure what you mean by "yesterday's tray" with regard to my response to Jacko. I have crossed swords with the illustrious Jackonicko many times, and though we seldom agree, I do have respect for his knowledge, intellect, contacts and professional opinion. I do think that Jacko still believes I don't like Europeans. This isn't the case. I do, however, believe that aeroplanes are best built under one roof.
Without going into the detail of any of the anti-EMP technologies either available or under development, some of which I have had a little to do with, my fundamental opposition to 5th generation aircraft is the un-soundness of building an airframe which is essentialy un-aerodynamic. I believe we are placing too great a reliance on technology which is as yet unprovable.
As I have said, I believe that such an approach belongs in the same basket as building combustable warships, and putting armoured vehicles onto rubber tyres.
But surely the technology has been proven? The F117 has been around for a while now, and is certainly unstable....until you add computers.
Like I said, the EMP problem has been around for a while now, and precautions can be taken against (and presumably have been tested in some laboratory somewhere).
As I said earlier, non nuclear EMP devices are short range (in open air anyway, if the pulse gets conducted by cables etc that's another matter).
Like I said, the EMP problem has been around for a while now, and precautions can be taken against (and presumably have been tested in some laboratory somewhere).
As I said earlier, non nuclear EMP devices are short range (in open air anyway, if the pulse gets conducted by cables etc that's another matter).
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 29th Sep 2004 at 11:39.
Suspicion breeds confidence
"If the call were mine, I'd say UK go for a mix of F-15 and Gripen until such time as you can build your own replacement without interference from Europeans and other incompetents."