Wg Cdr Guy Gibson VC DFC DSO
His actions in dealing with the two crews who "failed" during the dams raid surely prove his attitude toward those he considered to be of lower standing than himself.
Im at work and need to check the exact detail but two of the crews returned early without going near the dams. Both cited Navigational problems and fog.
Gibson interviwed both pilots shortly after and the SNCO led crew were posted forthwith. The Officer crew were slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again.
Ill check when I get home on the exact detail.
Gibson interviwed both pilots shortly after and the SNCO led crew were posted forthwith. The Officer crew were slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again.
Ill check when I get home on the exact detail.
I remember being involved with another hero, Johnnie Johnson, in Aden. He was certainly not one of natures gentlemen, but perhaps you needed to be a selfish egotist to become a fighter ace in WW2.
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Percy Pickard (Gp Capt on the Amien Prison Raid) didn't have a reputation for being an @rse, yet he certainly fits alongside many of the heroes of Jacko's list and was one of the most famous airmen of the war years. Indeed, whilst he didn't receive a VC for Op JERICHO, the French were so certain that he deserved one ahead of other VC recipients that they initially marked the award on his gravestone, convinced that it would be awarded.
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Wing Commander Guy Gibson was a man of his class and time. He was a professional military man prior to the outbreak of World War II and perhaps his attitude to life reflected that. I read a book quite recently about his early life prior to joining the RAF. His father lived in India, his mother was an alcoholic who lived in England with her family including Guy who was a youngest son, his mother died tragically at a young age due to an accident. I would suggest that if this situation arose today then Guy and his family might be taken in to care. When he led the Dams Raid I believe that he did not have enough flying hours to qualify him for an ATPL nowadays. He was a young man who fate decided would be made a "hero", a much abused word nowadays. Let him be remembered as a representative of RAF Bomber Command the vast majority of whose crews faced nearly certain death in one of its most unpleasant forms with stoicism and bravery and did their duty and died unacknowledged.
Tony Fallows
Swanwick ATC Centre
Tony Fallows
Swanwick ATC Centre
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one chap who claimed to work with Gibson claimed he had a terrible reputation; he then went on to explain that he drank too much and spent his evenings chasing women.
Whilst not directly relating to this thread, another member of 29 sqn who served with Gibson is to be remembered on 1 Oct. The Lord Mayor of Hull will be presenting a plaque to Hymers College in memory of Plt Off (?) Freer who was kia on 11 May 41.
He was flying a Blenheim at the time, so may be that also answers earlier questions about the type in use.
He was flying a Blenheim at the time, so may be that also answers earlier questions about the type in use.
DC10RealMan,
Very eloquently put, just a damm shame the "system" at the time didn't take a similar view.
Trying to exploit the mans reputation and status by sending him to the USA and encouraging him to stand as a Tory MP did nothing for his sense of reality and certainly added to the enormous ego he acquired prior to his death.
Very eloquently put, just a damm shame the "system" at the time didn't take a similar view.
Trying to exploit the mans reputation and status by sending him to the USA and encouraging him to stand as a Tory MP did nothing for his sense of reality and certainly added to the enormous ego he acquired prior to his death.
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Pity about all this character assassination. I know little of their true character, and I doubt whether others on this thread do so - other than through hearsay and written innuendo. It is quite misleading to try to define such people by comparing them with other well-known wartime RAF personalities - I knew two of the those mentioned by Jacko, and neither could be regarded as being contemporarily superior! We are all wired up in different ways - vive la difference.
Whatever flaws they had, so what? They were young men tasked with violent deeds, and their Service records and exploits reflect considerable bravery. Surely this doesn't merit an undefendable public kicking sixty years later on? Or are we on yet another quest to expose and record the 'truth'- lest we forget.
Whatever flaws they had, so what? They were young men tasked with violent deeds, and their Service records and exploits reflect considerable bravery. Surely this doesn't merit an undefendable public kicking sixty years later on? Or are we on yet another quest to expose and record the 'truth'- lest we forget.
jindabyne, I quite agree (my query to Skeleton shouldn't be taken as a desire to gain information against Gibson for knocking him - I'm just interested in the history).
Part of the broader problem, I'd suggest, is the bizarre notion that heroes are all thoroughly nice chaps; in Gibson's case, the problem is made worse by the expectation that he was, in fact, just like Richard Todd...
Part of the broader problem, I'd suggest, is the bizarre notion that heroes are all thoroughly nice chaps; in Gibson's case, the problem is made worse by the expectation that he was, in fact, just like Richard Todd...
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BEags
Bugger. Too much claret! You are of course correct it was Blenheims at Digby at the time - can't for the life of me think where Defiants came from - must be cos I was feeling defiant about some of the crap you read in the press these days. Ho hum. Still think he must have been a tout circlement bon oeuf.
If you make it to the Phantom Phliers not even remotely disguised PU in the usual place on the Friday before Remembrance Sunday I'll buy you that pint I owe you from 1982!
If you make it to the Phantom Phliers not even remotely disguised PU in the usual place on the Friday before Remembrance Sunday I'll buy you that pint I owe you from 1982!
Claret? Is that Wheel-talk for Vino rosso collapso di Tesco?
Is there a qualifying criterion for entry to the Phantom Phliers PU, old chum?
Can't help thinking that Boulton-Paul had a point with the Defiant. Not only did the nav have to sort out the intercept, he also had to fire the waepons. So none of that "You fired too late despite my perfect 0.7 Ra solution" crap. Like when Wee Stevie wouldn't give me a SP III kill because there were only 29, not 30 frames on the film......
It was rather a hoot though, thinking back on it all!
Is there a qualifying criterion for entry to the Phantom Phliers PU, old chum?
Can't help thinking that Boulton-Paul had a point with the Defiant. Not only did the nav have to sort out the intercept, he also had to fire the waepons. So none of that "You fired too late despite my perfect 0.7 Ra solution" crap. Like when Wee Stevie wouldn't give me a SP III kill because there were only 29, not 30 frames on the film......
It was rather a hoot though, thinking back on it all!
Certainly no slur here from me, he was a leader of his time and he was like so many of his generation tasked with implementing a plan that was obviously going to cost many lives on both sides. This he did.
Says it all.
We may look back at history and say he was a B
of a leader but so what he was a brave one, but so were the rest of his squadron. I guess getting "rid" of crews quietly by overnight postings for those not performing or not prepared to risk all was par for the course in WW2. What else could they do? Indeed Gibson himself (or his Flight Commanders) spotted a couple of aircrew that they themselves had tried to pass on beforehand!! Needless to say they were returned whence they came in very short order.
Whatever flaws they had, so what? They were young men tasked with violent deeds, and their Service records and exploits reflect considerable bravery
We may look back at history and say he was a B
of a leader but so what he was a brave one, but so were the rest of his squadron. I guess getting "rid" of crews quietly by overnight postings for those not performing or not prepared to risk all was par for the course in WW2. What else could they do? Indeed Gibson himself (or his Flight Commanders) spotted a couple of aircrew that they themselves had tried to pass on beforehand!! Needless to say they were returned whence they came in very short order.
I’m old enough to have interveiwed several Dambuster survivors, and while there’s no doubt that Gibson earned respect, he wasn’t much liked, whereas Mickey Martin and Len Cheshire were BOTH.
Gibson’s treatment of some of those who flew on the raid was appalling. It was clear that those in the third wave would have the toughest job of all – with more difficult navigation with the lower moon and gathering mist. They were also tasked with penetrating German defences that had already been ‘stirred up’ by the previous waves and alerted by the previous attacks, and had to be flexible enough to attack targets missed by the first waves, or the back-up targets. The aircraft did not leave Scampton until after midnight (almost four hours after the first wave!) going in so much later that much of their return flight would be through pre-dawn mist, and even leaving them still over enemy territory in daylight. But Gibson left it to his NCO pilots to form the backbone of this wave, and gave them little credit after the mission, even though the successful pilots (Brown and Townsend) had to make several dummy runs before making successful attacks, and then had to fly recces over the Dams that had been attacked earlier that night. Several people involved in Op Chastise have opined that Townsend, in particular, showed heroism that equalled anything displayed in the first wave.
Both these NCO pilots hit their targets (Townsend probably bombed the Bever Dam rather than the Ennepe) but found no congratulations from the Boss when they returned to Scampton, both having had a hard fight to get home, running out under fire from very heavy flak, and crossing the enemy coast without the cover of darkness.
Flight Sergeant Anderson was the pilot posted away after the mission, and he (the last to take off) aborted his mission only after having received a last minute change of target (from the Diemel to the Sorpe) losing his rear turret, after becoming uncertain of his position, after taking a pasting from the defences around Hamm (woken up by Otley’s aircraft) and with dawn only 90 minutes away.
I’ve never heard of any of the survivors criticising Anderson’s actions (quite the reverse, in fact). But Gibson was less ‘understanding’ and posted him out. Two officer pilots turned back in the Second Wave, and received no such treatment.
To damn Anderson as “not performing or not prepared to risk all” is even shabbier now than it was at the time.
Gibson’s treatment of some of those who flew on the raid was appalling. It was clear that those in the third wave would have the toughest job of all – with more difficult navigation with the lower moon and gathering mist. They were also tasked with penetrating German defences that had already been ‘stirred up’ by the previous waves and alerted by the previous attacks, and had to be flexible enough to attack targets missed by the first waves, or the back-up targets. The aircraft did not leave Scampton until after midnight (almost four hours after the first wave!) going in so much later that much of their return flight would be through pre-dawn mist, and even leaving them still over enemy territory in daylight. But Gibson left it to his NCO pilots to form the backbone of this wave, and gave them little credit after the mission, even though the successful pilots (Brown and Townsend) had to make several dummy runs before making successful attacks, and then had to fly recces over the Dams that had been attacked earlier that night. Several people involved in Op Chastise have opined that Townsend, in particular, showed heroism that equalled anything displayed in the first wave.
Both these NCO pilots hit their targets (Townsend probably bombed the Bever Dam rather than the Ennepe) but found no congratulations from the Boss when they returned to Scampton, both having had a hard fight to get home, running out under fire from very heavy flak, and crossing the enemy coast without the cover of darkness.
Flight Sergeant Anderson was the pilot posted away after the mission, and he (the last to take off) aborted his mission only after having received a last minute change of target (from the Diemel to the Sorpe) losing his rear turret, after becoming uncertain of his position, after taking a pasting from the defences around Hamm (woken up by Otley’s aircraft) and with dawn only 90 minutes away.
I’ve never heard of any of the survivors criticising Anderson’s actions (quite the reverse, in fact). But Gibson was less ‘understanding’ and posted him out. Two officer pilots turned back in the Second Wave, and received no such treatment.
To damn Anderson as “not performing or not prepared to risk all” is even shabbier now than it was at the time.
Why was he posted out then is the obvious question. Gibson must have had his reasons, maybe a past history between the two.
I understood obviously wrongly that he never went near the dams.
I for one would never question any of the Dambusters crews courage, quite the reverse is true in fact.
Interviewing some of the survivours must have been an honour and more revealing than any history book.
I understood obviously wrongly that he never went near the dams.
I for one would never question any of the Dambusters crews courage, quite the reverse is true in fact.
Interviewing some of the survivours must have been an honour and more revealing than any history book.
Gentleman Aviator
the expectation that he was, in fact, just like Richard Todd...
I heard a good dit about RT and the filming of "Dambusters" at Scampton or wherever, which was a working station at the time. Apparently, to avoid confusing actors with real serving people (after some luvvies got bollocked for not saluting a real orfiser), it was decided that the actors would wear brown boots/shoes to distinguish them (B&W film so it wouldn't show).
Having been really commissioned, Todd insisted on wearing black shoes ..... and getting the salutes!
Thank you, Jacko - fills in the gaps in my memory.
Slightly OT, but wrt Richard Todd, he, of course, took part in another 'epic' of WW2, namely seizing Pegasus Bridge. Useful background info for when he later played his own CO [I'm fairly certain he was one of Major John Howard's men] in The Longest Day
Slightly OT, but wrt Richard Todd, he, of course, took part in another 'epic' of WW2, namely seizing Pegasus Bridge. Useful background info for when he later played his own CO [I'm fairly certain he was one of Major John Howard's men] in The Longest Day
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Jacko
There is/was probably enough dirt around to portray wartime 'personalities' in whatever light you wish to choose. And the older one gets, the better/worse the telling usually becomes. Sometimes out spite, sometimes through memory-blur. I say this not out of unpleasantness or disrespect, but experience. Look only as far as this forum for proof!
As for being 'liked', so what? It has long been described in military circles that being likeable is not a pre-requisite leadership trait. I've had a couple of squadron bosses who were far from popular in the crewroom, but most of the team would have wanted them at the front in difficult times. I've also had thoroughly nice COs who were equally useless in the air.
To be both liked and warrior-like is to be perfect. I suspect that not many were.
There is/was probably enough dirt around to portray wartime 'personalities' in whatever light you wish to choose. And the older one gets, the better/worse the telling usually becomes. Sometimes out spite, sometimes through memory-blur. I say this not out of unpleasantness or disrespect, but experience. Look only as far as this forum for proof!
As for being 'liked', so what? It has long been described in military circles that being likeable is not a pre-requisite leadership trait. I've had a couple of squadron bosses who were far from popular in the crewroom, but most of the team would have wanted them at the front in difficult times. I've also had thoroughly nice COs who were equally useless in the air.
To be both liked and warrior-like is to be perfect. I suspect that not many were.
Jindy,
Obviously.
But simply being an obnoxious git, refusing advice, crawling to your superiors and exercising favouritism and prejudice to your subordinates doesn't automatically make one a good leader, either.
The great leader will be:
1) Obeyed without question
2) Respected and trusted
3) Liked
Probably in that order.
Obviously.
But simply being an obnoxious git, refusing advice, crawling to your superiors and exercising favouritism and prejudice to your subordinates doesn't automatically make one a good leader, either.
The great leader will be:
1) Obeyed without question
2) Respected and trusted
3) Liked
Probably in that order.