History lesson for Army rotorheads; A Bridge Too Far
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History lesson for Army rotorheads; A Bridge Too Far
May I bring to your attention the events of 60 years ago. Today, hundreds of veterans marched over a landmark Dutch bridge to mark the 60th anniversary of the World War II Battle of Arnhem.
Winston Churchill, early in World War 2, decreed the establishment of a new branch of Army aviation to be known as the Army Air Corps. This body of tough, red bereted soldiers comprised of lightly equipped air-landed infantry to form the Parachute Regiment, the Glider Pilot Regiment, who flew gliders carrying specially trained line infantry directly into battle, and the nucleus of what was to become the Special Air Service. All these component elements were to form the Army Air Corps.
Gliders could be landed virtually on top of their objectives, as happened at Pegasus Bridge during the initial operations of the D-Day landings in June 1944. After landing, the pilots then fought as infantry soldiers or assisted in crewing the weapons or equipment they had brought in until withdrawn to fly other missions.
The full story.
More than 16,500 paratroopers and 3,500 troops in gliders were dropped.
Nearly 6,000 from the 1st Airborne Division were captured, and 1,174 killed.
Winston Churchill, early in World War 2, decreed the establishment of a new branch of Army aviation to be known as the Army Air Corps. This body of tough, red bereted soldiers comprised of lightly equipped air-landed infantry to form the Parachute Regiment, the Glider Pilot Regiment, who flew gliders carrying specially trained line infantry directly into battle, and the nucleus of what was to become the Special Air Service. All these component elements were to form the Army Air Corps.
Gliders could be landed virtually on top of their objectives, as happened at Pegasus Bridge during the initial operations of the D-Day landings in June 1944. After landing, the pilots then fought as infantry soldiers or assisted in crewing the weapons or equipment they had brought in until withdrawn to fly other missions.
The full story.
More than 16,500 paratroopers and 3,500 troops in gliders were dropped.
Nearly 6,000 from the 1st Airborne Division were captured, and 1,174 killed.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 19th Sep 2004 at 19:58.
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What's your point SS?
Are you saying that ppruners should spout off here about their sqn/regt/unit history at every anniversary, or are you trying to tell us what a clever chap you are knowing the significant dates in military aviation history?
Perhaps all the other green ppruners were so occupied with attending memorial events or on active service they didn't have time to drone on here, cutting and pasting from the web?
Are you saying that ppruners should spout off here about their sqn/regt/unit history at every anniversary, or are you trying to tell us what a clever chap you are knowing the significant dates in military aviation history?
Perhaps all the other green ppruners were so occupied with attending memorial events or on active service they didn't have time to drone on here, cutting and pasting from the web?
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SS,
The heroic efforts and deeds of those involved are not forgotten by us in the light blue. I have visited Oosterbeek War Cemetary many times to pay my respects to those who fought for their country. It is always a humbling experience, especially when you look at the ages of those who died.
It was during a resupply drop for the troops at Arnheim on 19 Sep that 30 year old Flt Lt David Lord died. He was subsequently awarded a VC for his actions on the resupply. He was piloting a Dakota whose startboard engine had been hit and was on fire. He pressed home the resupply drop and to the amazement of the British and German troops made a second run to drop 2 remaining panniers. Unfortunately as the order was given by Lord to bail out the starboard wing broke from the ac and it plunged to the ground killing all but Fg Off King who was thrown from the aircraft as it broke up. Maj Peter Jackson, CO of one of the Glider Pilot Regiment's Sqns witnessed the last moments of Lord's Dakota. He said "it was the most extraordinary performance."
Just one act of heroism during an appalling time for all those who were involved in this tragic war.
My deepest resect to all those who took part in Operation Market Garden.
The heroic efforts and deeds of those involved are not forgotten by us in the light blue. I have visited Oosterbeek War Cemetary many times to pay my respects to those who fought for their country. It is always a humbling experience, especially when you look at the ages of those who died.
It was during a resupply drop for the troops at Arnheim on 19 Sep that 30 year old Flt Lt David Lord died. He was subsequently awarded a VC for his actions on the resupply. He was piloting a Dakota whose startboard engine had been hit and was on fire. He pressed home the resupply drop and to the amazement of the British and German troops made a second run to drop 2 remaining panniers. Unfortunately as the order was given by Lord to bail out the starboard wing broke from the ac and it plunged to the ground killing all but Fg Off King who was thrown from the aircraft as it broke up. Maj Peter Jackson, CO of one of the Glider Pilot Regiment's Sqns witnessed the last moments of Lord's Dakota. He said "it was the most extraordinary performance."
Just one act of heroism during an appalling time for all those who were involved in this tragic war.
My deepest resect to all those who took part in Operation Market Garden.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
We all conduct our remembrance in our own way.
Point is airborne_artist, in a military aircrew thread it seemed approriate to add a thread for the 60th Anniversary.
I seem to remember no-one complaining about threads for the BoB etc!
also;
Perhaps all the other green ppruners were so occupied with attending memorial events or on active service.
Cut and paste........saves typing!
Thank you Green Bottle 2.
It is always a humbling experience to hear the stories of the GPR pilots and others who took part in events of 60 years ago.
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Gov Mal,
"Confrontation, discussion, reading others views or opinions", call it what you will, whether one has to post a subject or simply a paragraph at the end of a post to get a reaction surely is the reason most of us frequent these forums.
Despite this; A lot of green military pilots on this forum complain that it seems that the blue fraternity try to make it there own. (The 'other' forum site makes this quite clear.)
I find it amazing that no one in green has before taken the opportunity to comment on the Market Garden exploits of the forefathers of the Army Air Corps as it is now, as well as the other exploits of the AACs predecessor. Maybe if nothing else, to let the blue boys know we had some part in the events of both 60 yrs ago and in more recent conflicts.
I feel that I have brought this weekends events to the front of the minds of modern day aircrew, many of whom have been on operations, to remember that these veterans were also Army pilots of a past conflict.
It is so easy to watch the coming weekends events on the media coverage and be in the belief that it was all purely about the Parachute troops.
Let us not forget, that the end result of Market Garden happened because of failings in military intelligence and communication. Funnily enough, 60 yrs on, this still reflects in the results of modern warfare.
I'm surprised by sloppies reaction, after all he seems to be a fine one to talk, with his previous rantings against the domination on pprune by the blues.
And by the way slopps, in the modern age of computers, I think the correct way to type your chosen word of the day is;
tw@
"Confrontation, discussion, reading others views or opinions", call it what you will, whether one has to post a subject or simply a paragraph at the end of a post to get a reaction surely is the reason most of us frequent these forums.
Despite this; A lot of green military pilots on this forum complain that it seems that the blue fraternity try to make it there own. (The 'other' forum site makes this quite clear.)
I find it amazing that no one in green has before taken the opportunity to comment on the Market Garden exploits of the forefathers of the Army Air Corps as it is now, as well as the other exploits of the AACs predecessor. Maybe if nothing else, to let the blue boys know we had some part in the events of both 60 yrs ago and in more recent conflicts.
I feel that I have brought this weekends events to the front of the minds of modern day aircrew, many of whom have been on operations, to remember that these veterans were also Army pilots of a past conflict.
It is so easy to watch the coming weekends events on the media coverage and be in the belief that it was all purely about the Parachute troops.
Let us not forget, that the end result of Market Garden happened because of failings in military intelligence and communication. Funnily enough, 60 yrs on, this still reflects in the results of modern warfare.
I'm surprised by sloppies reaction, after all he seems to be a fine one to talk, with his previous rantings against the domination on pprune by the blues.
And by the way slopps, in the modern age of computers, I think the correct way to type your chosen word of the day is;
tw@
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Thread Starter
Vortex, if you want to make such a sweeping statement such as
may I suggest you get your facts right before jumping onto the anti-SS bandwagon.
Let me enlighten you, care of http://www.arnhemarchive.org/depth.htm
"Failing to pass on word of a possible tank threat was a grave mistake on the part of British Intelligence. Had the 1st Airborne received any hint of this, then they would have had time to form a different attack plan and would have taken much more anti-tank equipment with them."
What part of "grave mistake on the part of British Intelligence." did you find so difficult?
As for a modern day comparison, from the same source;
"...........the Battle for Arnhem might still have been successful if only the radios had functioned correctly. If this had been the case then the 1st Para Brigade could have alerted Divisional HQ of the heavy resistance that they were encountering and subsequently, requested reinforcements."
If only they had mobile phones back then!!!
Not so, more the usual failings of the decision-makers to listen
Let me enlighten you, care of http://www.arnhemarchive.org/depth.htm
"Failing to pass on word of a possible tank threat was a grave mistake on the part of British Intelligence. Had the 1st Airborne received any hint of this, then they would have had time to form a different attack plan and would have taken much more anti-tank equipment with them."
What part of "grave mistake on the part of British Intelligence." did you find so difficult?
As for a modern day comparison, from the same source;
"...........the Battle for Arnhem might still have been successful if only the radios had functioned correctly. If this had been the case then the 1st Para Brigade could have alerted Divisional HQ of the heavy resistance that they were encountering and subsequently, requested reinforcements."
If only they had mobile phones back then!!!
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gentlemen - ignore him. It is a valid point that we should remember significant events in the history of the services we hold dear - but for SiloeSid to make an arguement out of it is pointless and infantile.
For m, the news that some of the veterans parachuted into the DZ today was a source of immense pride - even though my allegiance is primarily to lighgt blue rather than green.
I used to fly an aeroplane named after Flt Lt Lord (all the 10 Sqn VC10s are named after VC winners) and you can not help but feel pride every time you read the dedication telling you how these chaps earned that purple ribbon.
For m, the news that some of the veterans parachuted into the DZ today was a source of immense pride - even though my allegiance is primarily to lighgt blue rather than green.
I used to fly an aeroplane named after Flt Lt Lord (all the 10 Sqn VC10s are named after VC winners) and you can not help but feel pride every time you read the dedication telling you how these chaps earned that purple ribbon.
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"carrying specially trained line infantry directly into battle, and the nucleus of what was to become the Special Air Service. All these component elements were to form the Army Air Corps".
Er, don't think so! The SAS had been up and running for at least two years before Op Market Garden hadn't they?
Er, don't think so! The SAS had been up and running for at least two years before Op Market Garden hadn't they?
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arfur,
Does it really seem to you that I am I making an argument out of this?
May I suggest that you read this thread, not just the sentences that suit you, and in particular look at the names that are making any argumentative comments.
Thank you.
And by the way, you say that you noticed the vets parachuting in. My point is that maybe you didn't notice the vets with the Glider Pilot Regiment / AAC capbadges. These guys were pilots not paras.
Omark,
You are correct in what you say, as in L detachment 1 SAS Brigade back in 1941.
However you seem to have misunderstood the context;
"....of what was to become the Special Air Service."
As in, still in development to become the SAS as we know it now.
SS
Does it really seem to you that I am I making an argument out of this?
May I suggest that you read this thread, not just the sentences that suit you, and in particular look at the names that are making any argumentative comments.
Thank you.
And by the way, you say that you noticed the vets parachuting in. My point is that maybe you didn't notice the vets with the Glider Pilot Regiment / AAC capbadges. These guys were pilots not paras.
Omark,
You are correct in what you say, as in L detachment 1 SAS Brigade back in 1941.
However you seem to have misunderstood the context;
"....of what was to become the Special Air Service."
As in, still in development to become the SAS as we know it now.
SS
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 19th Sep 2004 at 19:27.
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SS,
I find your last post particularly distasteful,
Who are you to throw accusations around about anyone who fought in WW2, were you there, do you have all the details of this incident? I'm sure you feel very brave sat at your computer, and before you start on about how you have been there, so have most of us on this board at some time or other and we have all been scared and had doubts whilst doing whatever it is we do. Do you not think that we could find similar stories from any of the Services and in particular the AAC? Being an ex Lyneham man I have been intimately involved in both the Arnhem and Pegasus Bridge (The Glider Pilots greatest hour in my humble opinion) commemorations, dropping guys at the 50th Anniv and leading the 2000 Drops. I have spent a night in Arnhem and numerous other occasions talking to the veterans, hearing their incredible stories of bravery being retold as if they were everyday occurrences. To a man every veteran had the utmost respect for the RAF crews that dropped them and resupplied them, people like Flt Lt Lord, of course that didn't stop them bantering us about the accuracies of the drops, but it was just that, banter, they understood the dangers of war and accepted them. I think you shoud leave any criticism of the RAF to the veterans who were there and not some sanctimonious tw@ like yourself who wasn't and just wants to partake in some light blue baiting.
I find your last post particularly distasteful,
Who are you to throw accusations around about anyone who fought in WW2, were you there, do you have all the details of this incident? I'm sure you feel very brave sat at your computer, and before you start on about how you have been there, so have most of us on this board at some time or other and we have all been scared and had doubts whilst doing whatever it is we do. Do you not think that we could find similar stories from any of the Services and in particular the AAC? Being an ex Lyneham man I have been intimately involved in both the Arnhem and Pegasus Bridge (The Glider Pilots greatest hour in my humble opinion) commemorations, dropping guys at the 50th Anniv and leading the 2000 Drops. I have spent a night in Arnhem and numerous other occasions talking to the veterans, hearing their incredible stories of bravery being retold as if they were everyday occurrences. To a man every veteran had the utmost respect for the RAF crews that dropped them and resupplied them, people like Flt Lt Lord, of course that didn't stop them bantering us about the accuracies of the drops, but it was just that, banter, they understood the dangers of war and accepted them. I think you shoud leave any criticism of the RAF to the veterans who were there and not some sanctimonious tw@ like yourself who wasn't and just wants to partake in some light blue baiting.
Last edited by Banggearo; 19th Sep 2004 at 21:34.
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I think SS is getting confused, I do remember reading about some very inexperienced USAAF transport pilots releasing early, but that was Italy or North Africa, this isn’t Yank bashing BTW
A small number of RAF fought on the ground at Arnhem, members of the two Light Warning units as well as various downed aircrew
http://www.documentatiegroep40-45.nl...ikel/erks.html
Anyway try
http://www.marketgarden.com/
-Nick
A small number of RAF fought on the ground at Arnhem, members of the two Light Warning units as well as various downed aircrew
http://www.documentatiegroep40-45.nl...ikel/erks.html
Anyway try
http://www.marketgarden.com/
-Nick
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Thread Starter
Banggearo;
As Maple01 said I was probably confused. I apologise for the paragraph and have deleted it, as you have quoted it, others are still able to see my mistake.
The details of the incident to which I was referring are as follows and came from Op Ladbroke - 9/10 July 1943 (Sicily).
Three hundred other British Airborne troops had perished in the sea of Sicily. Gen John Hackett explains:
"The operation was a disaster. US Troop Carrier Command tug pilots, flying C-47s with no crew protection and no self-sealing tanks, with virtually no military experience, were panic-stricken at their first encounter with flak and cast off their Horsa gliders over the sea at night, facing high wind, too far out for most to make landfall. Over three hundred British Airborne soldiers drowned.."
no-one, but maybe Gen John Hackett is!
'Perhaps' I remembered it incorrectly, mind you I had a few bottles of wine that night with the old GPR boys recalling the tale.!
As Maple01 said I was probably confused. I apologise for the paragraph and have deleted it, as you have quoted it, others are still able to see my mistake.
The details of the incident to which I was referring are as follows and came from Op Ladbroke - 9/10 July 1943 (Sicily).
Three hundred other British Airborne troops had perished in the sea of Sicily. Gen John Hackett explains:
"The operation was a disaster. US Troop Carrier Command tug pilots, flying C-47s with no crew protection and no self-sealing tanks, with virtually no military experience, were panic-stricken at their first encounter with flak and cast off their Horsa gliders over the sea at night, facing high wind, too far out for most to make landfall. Over three hundred British Airborne soldiers drowned.."
Who are you to throw accusations around about anyone who fought in WW2
'Perhaps' I remembered it incorrectly, mind you I had a few bottles of wine that night with the old GPR boys recalling the tale.!
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Market-Garden
Silsoe
My extended family has a proud tradition of Army service - Royal Highland Regiment (The Black Watch), The Cameronian Scottish Rifles, Parachute Regiment (several) and SAS.
I also did some time with the Infantry - but the majority of my service was as a Herc pilot in the RAF. As such I was privileged to participate in the Arnhem memorial drop on no fewer than three occasions, once in the lead crew.
Nothing can prepare one for the huge sense of goodwill and gratitude still felt by the locals for the Brits. As I walked through the streets of Arnhem for the duty visit to the John Frost Brug, the shop windows would be hung with bunting, red-white-and-blue tickertape and signs reading 'Welcome back, Tommy'. Amazing.
However, Silsoe, courageous as the participant lions were (and no sane man would question that) they were, as lions so often are, led by donkeys. The single road to Arnhem was so narrow as to be considered single-track in places, and ran through boggy land that even a tracked vehicle could not negotiate if forced off the road.
There was 60+ miles of it - not just the bridges - where a determined enemy with half-decent artillery, if nothing else, could have continually interdicted it at leisure. That should have been obvious to any military planner.
To have succeeded in simultaneously taking all the bridges would have been a stunning military achievement in itself; but to have kept the Nijmegen road open for the weeks and months necessary to bring to fruition the declared goal of an early end to the war would have made it pale into insignificance.
This in no way detracts from the sacrifices made by the Lions themselves: Brits, Yanks, Poles, Commonwealth, Dutch underground to name but the obvious. However, to all:
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we will remember them.
We will remember them.
Gadget
My extended family has a proud tradition of Army service - Royal Highland Regiment (The Black Watch), The Cameronian Scottish Rifles, Parachute Regiment (several) and SAS.
I also did some time with the Infantry - but the majority of my service was as a Herc pilot in the RAF. As such I was privileged to participate in the Arnhem memorial drop on no fewer than three occasions, once in the lead crew.
Nothing can prepare one for the huge sense of goodwill and gratitude still felt by the locals for the Brits. As I walked through the streets of Arnhem for the duty visit to the John Frost Brug, the shop windows would be hung with bunting, red-white-and-blue tickertape and signs reading 'Welcome back, Tommy'. Amazing.
However, Silsoe, courageous as the participant lions were (and no sane man would question that) they were, as lions so often are, led by donkeys. The single road to Arnhem was so narrow as to be considered single-track in places, and ran through boggy land that even a tracked vehicle could not negotiate if forced off the road.
There was 60+ miles of it - not just the bridges - where a determined enemy with half-decent artillery, if nothing else, could have continually interdicted it at leisure. That should have been obvious to any military planner.
To have succeeded in simultaneously taking all the bridges would have been a stunning military achievement in itself; but to have kept the Nijmegen road open for the weeks and months necessary to bring to fruition the declared goal of an early end to the war would have made it pale into insignificance.
This in no way detracts from the sacrifices made by the Lions themselves: Brits, Yanks, Poles, Commonwealth, Dutch underground to name but the obvious. However, to all:
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we will remember them.
We will remember them.
Gadget
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Thread Starter
Thank you Captain Gadget.
Perhaps a good time for this thread to end.
Perhaps a good time for this thread to end.