Firefighters Strike.......Again
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Working hard,
Driving an HGV vehicle camouflaged or otherwise at normal road speed is reasonably similar. The similarity ends when you are required to manouvere it at high speeds through busy traffic on congested roads.
Following a 2 week training course, on return to station brigade drivers carry out routine driving of appliances to make sure that they are very aware of how to handle them. They are then required to undergo emergency fire appliance driver training which trains them for driving at speed as you would while responding to emergencies.
Not all appliances are the same to drive at speed, weight variations, movement of the water in the tanks, the engine power, braking characteristics, weather conditions all go to making appliances different to handle. It's all very well being able to drive at speed but being able to stop is a different matter or thinking ahead as to what other motorist are going to do when they see you. When a car drives in front of you because they don't look in mirrors or can't hear you because they have the radio up full blast is quite exciting to say the least.
As to what firefighters are paid you can find that out very easily it is no secret. Getting into an argument regarding the wages of different professions is pointless as we all think that we deserve more. Who for example thinks that footballers or television personalities deserve the money they get..
An agreement was however signed in June 2003 giving a wage rise which we still have not received. Even when it is received a qualified firefighter will receive £25k annually which while being not bad leaves you struggling to pay the mortgage or even be able to get your feet on the housing market in the South East.
I do not know what you are alluding to in respect of taxable and non-taxable benefits. If you have anything specifically in mind please share it with me and I will be happy to provide the correct information.
With regards to payment for working public holidays, firefighter like everyone else required to work public holidays do so at premium rates. As to the work carried out on those days after the appliances and equipment are checked to ensure they are in working order we stand down. We still turn out as normal to fires and other calls for assistance, we also undertake any other tasks required. I am sure that other than personnel on active duty, even the armed forces treat public holidays differently for personnel required to work on those days. Do the forces go on exercise or whatever they do on every other day of the year, on Christmas or New Years Day, I do not think so.
Given all that I still hope the the respective negotiators on either side can get around the table and sort this out and are allowed to get on with it without anymore government interference.
Hi Ali,
The main issue regarding the use of the appliances is training as detailed in my last post. There may well also be insurance issues linked to this as if one was involved in an accident which was being driven by someone with limited training what liability issues does that throw up.
As I stated earlier the appliances do not put out fires, cut people out of cars etc it is the people in them.
As regards to the government inspired stitch up, the details have been in all the better newspapers for all to see. Indeed last weekend before Monday\'s meeting details were in some of the Sunday papers detailing the shenannigens to be expected..
As you asked, I am a member of a Local Government Fire Brigade not an Airport Authority one.
Driving an HGV vehicle camouflaged or otherwise at normal road speed is reasonably similar. The similarity ends when you are required to manouvere it at high speeds through busy traffic on congested roads.
Following a 2 week training course, on return to station brigade drivers carry out routine driving of appliances to make sure that they are very aware of how to handle them. They are then required to undergo emergency fire appliance driver training which trains them for driving at speed as you would while responding to emergencies.
Not all appliances are the same to drive at speed, weight variations, movement of the water in the tanks, the engine power, braking characteristics, weather conditions all go to making appliances different to handle. It's all very well being able to drive at speed but being able to stop is a different matter or thinking ahead as to what other motorist are going to do when they see you. When a car drives in front of you because they don't look in mirrors or can't hear you because they have the radio up full blast is quite exciting to say the least.
As to what firefighters are paid you can find that out very easily it is no secret. Getting into an argument regarding the wages of different professions is pointless as we all think that we deserve more. Who for example thinks that footballers or television personalities deserve the money they get..
An agreement was however signed in June 2003 giving a wage rise which we still have not received. Even when it is received a qualified firefighter will receive £25k annually which while being not bad leaves you struggling to pay the mortgage or even be able to get your feet on the housing market in the South East.
I do not know what you are alluding to in respect of taxable and non-taxable benefits. If you have anything specifically in mind please share it with me and I will be happy to provide the correct information.
With regards to payment for working public holidays, firefighter like everyone else required to work public holidays do so at premium rates. As to the work carried out on those days after the appliances and equipment are checked to ensure they are in working order we stand down. We still turn out as normal to fires and other calls for assistance, we also undertake any other tasks required. I am sure that other than personnel on active duty, even the armed forces treat public holidays differently for personnel required to work on those days. Do the forces go on exercise or whatever they do on every other day of the year, on Christmas or New Years Day, I do not think so.
Given all that I still hope the the respective negotiators on either side can get around the table and sort this out and are allowed to get on with it without anymore government interference.
Hi Ali,
The main issue regarding the use of the appliances is training as detailed in my last post. There may well also be insurance issues linked to this as if one was involved in an accident which was being driven by someone with limited training what liability issues does that throw up.
As I stated earlier the appliances do not put out fires, cut people out of cars etc it is the people in them.
As regards to the government inspired stitch up, the details have been in all the better newspapers for all to see. Indeed last weekend before Monday\'s meeting details were in some of the Sunday papers detailing the shenannigens to be expected..
As you asked, I am a member of a Local Government Fire Brigade not an Airport Authority one.
Last edited by Runway 31; 7th Aug 2004 at 12:04.
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Ali
I agree that RW31 comes across as a reasoned sort of chap; and I have some sympathy with the firemen being given the present runaround. However, when their pay (even pre-payrise), working patterns and conditions are compared with most junior members of the armed forces and the paramedics, they win comfortably. And as for 'putting their life on the line' - well, OK, but how often -and again in comparison with the armed forces, police, and paramedics they are not extraordinary. With every respect, I think that line is a bit stretched.
So I repeat, their cause for striking yet again in so short a time is, in my view, entirely unjustifiable. At the end of the day it will be down to the ballot, ie individual choice. Government interference maybe, but at the end of the day it's their choice - and conscience.
Let us not be seduced by velvet tongues.
I agree that RW31 comes across as a reasoned sort of chap; and I have some sympathy with the firemen being given the present runaround. However, when their pay (even pre-payrise), working patterns and conditions are compared with most junior members of the armed forces and the paramedics, they win comfortably. And as for 'putting their life on the line' - well, OK, but how often -and again in comparison with the armed forces, police, and paramedics they are not extraordinary. With every respect, I think that line is a bit stretched.
So I repeat, their cause for striking yet again in so short a time is, in my view, entirely unjustifiable. At the end of the day it will be down to the ballot, ie individual choice. Government interference maybe, but at the end of the day it's their choice - and conscience.
Let us not be seduced by velvet tongues.
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The Armed Forces is different with regard to public hoildays. I have worked a number of public holidays and some of those were on exercise, maybe not Christmas or New Year but public holidays none the less.
And don't forget that not everyone gets paid a premium to work these days. We get paid the same rate regardless of day of the week, shift, public holiday and there is no such thing as overtime. It's in the job description when we signed up and we accept it, and we regularly modernise and change working practices. Sounds like we're the ones with something to complain about!!
And don't forget that not everyone gets paid a premium to work these days. We get paid the same rate regardless of day of the week, shift, public holiday and there is no such thing as overtime. It's in the job description when we signed up and we accept it, and we regularly modernise and change working practices. Sounds like we're the ones with something to complain about!!
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This is a complicated argument different from the 40% demand of Fresco 1. It appears that the government desire a strike, for various reasons that probably include breaking the FBU and appearing tough in a pre-election year, and are actively engineering a collapse in talks. However, if a strike poses such risks to life and property (undoubtedly it does, despite the best efforts of military cover and the likelihood of firefighters crossing the picket lines to respond to serious accidents) then the government should obtain an injunction (or use prerogative powers) to rule the strike illegal. This would be too much for the remaining "brothers" that can still stomach New Labour, so it is easier to simply wheel out the troops once more.
The firefighters are in a very difficult position, as striking will make them public enemy no 1, with good reason! However, there is a glimmer of hope as various regions appear to be revolting against the Local Government Association by discussing separate and local agreements with the FBU. Hopefully, this will destroy the government's strategy to engineer a strike and kill the spectre of troops having to act as firefighters.
The firefighters are in a very difficult position, as striking will make them public enemy no 1, with good reason! However, there is a glimmer of hope as various regions appear to be revolting against the Local Government Association by discussing separate and local agreements with the FBU. Hopefully, this will destroy the government's strategy to engineer a strike and kill the spectre of troops having to act as firefighters.
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Should the strikes go ahead, I wonder if the Green Goddess crews will have to deal with a similar number of mysteriously well-timed tyre and car fires, carefully placed in open ground, started within minutes of the strike officially commencing?
Don't tell me it didn't happen!
The Appliances are all owned by the local authorities - not the firefighters, so if it comes to it, why not use them? And any excuses that our drivers can't handle such a mighty piece of hardware is clearly bulls**t.
I used to have an enormous respect for the firefighters but there's ittle sympathy at SBG towers now!
SBG
Don't tell me it didn't happen!
The Appliances are all owned by the local authorities - not the firefighters, so if it comes to it, why not use them? And any excuses that our drivers can't handle such a mighty piece of hardware is clearly bulls**t.
I used to have an enormous respect for the firefighters but there's ittle sympathy at SBG towers now!
SBG
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Thank you all for your views, I respect them all even the ones that I don't agree with.
I can asure you that this is all about destroying the FBU. It was made very clear yesterday morning on radio 4 where Councillor Coleman the Chair of the London Fire And Civil Defense Authority came out and stated that this was the governments stance and that he supported it fully. I have a recording of the interview and can forward it if required. At least he comes out and states his case allowing you to see who and what we are up against.
I do not however have any respect for anyone who comes out as the last poster did with the suggestion that firefighters stole cars and set them alight.
I can asure you that this is all about destroying the FBU. It was made very clear yesterday morning on radio 4 where Councillor Coleman the Chair of the London Fire And Civil Defense Authority came out and stated that this was the governments stance and that he supported it fully. I have a recording of the interview and can forward it if required. At least he comes out and states his case allowing you to see who and what we are up against.
I do not however have any respect for anyone who comes out as the last poster did with the suggestion that firefighters stole cars and set them alight.
From Runway 31
And just where does SBG state or even infer that firefighters stole cars or even anything else.
And if pumping water is a requirement, then the old Green Goddess can equal most pumps. (as long as someone can supply it with water.)
I do not however have any respect for anyone who comes out as the last poster did with the suggestion that firefighters stole cars and set them alight.
And if pumping water is a requirement, then the old Green Goddess can equal most pumps. (as long as someone can supply it with water.)
TAC Int Bloke
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No-one's suggesting car theft, however, oppos in the Liverpool area for Fresco 1 went to several suspicious incidents of burning tyres and cars- almost immediately the strike started. Perhaps it was the fairies?
Pretending it couldn’t' have happened undermines your credibility or perhaps you really think the FBU doesn’t contain any militants
prepared to risk lives
-Nick
Pretending it couldn’t' have happened undermines your credibility or perhaps you really think the FBU doesn’t contain any militants
prepared to risk lives
-Nick
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As stated, I didn't say/imply/infer that firefighters stole cars. What I did say is that across many regions during the first night of Fresco support there were a surprising amount of - shall we say 'conveniently' - well-timed fires, including: piles of tyres, oil drums filled with various materials, most of which produced oily black smoke (set for effect rather than the actual fire perhaps?), abandoned cars, and so on....
At the time, and with the background cast as it was, it was politically unacceptable to highlight these, and other incidents. Now, however...
SBG
At the time, and with the background cast as it was, it was politically unacceptable to highlight these, and other incidents. Now, however...
SBG
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Use of Red Fire Trucks
One of my colleagues was a Det Co for Fresco 1. The reason she was given for not using the civvy kit was that the FBU crews, on their return, would 'black' the trucks and refuse to use the equipment again since it had been used to 'break' the strike.
What say you to that RW31?
What say you to that RW31?
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Runway 31 still has not answered the specifics I posed. Come on be honest and straight and no politically correct answers or obfuscation this time. Do you get double time for bank holidays and time off in lieu and why dont you work normally on such days?
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Runway, wingeing about completely satifactory pay and benefits will hold no weight as far as I am concerned. you already get paid far too much as a result of your out dated union. In reality, you get paid far more than most other emergency service organisations, yet only work 4 days on-shift, during which, if it is at night, will spend that time in bed.
By demanding extra funds, you are depleting the same pot that the armed forces also draw from, and instead of it going to essential new kit for the fire service, it goes into your pockets.
How many of you guys hold second jobs (perfectly legally I know but still recieving extra income)?
And in response to the party line you need danger money, pass a thought for our young squadies, who on 12 grand a year, get shot at in Basra to come home, not to wife and kids for leave, but some fire station because the FBU are having a little gripe with Tone and his motly crew. I am sorry; I am the last person to support the many of the views of this govt, however, I firmly believe despot organisations such as the FBU should have been left for the Knackers yard many years ago.
By demanding extra funds, you are depleting the same pot that the armed forces also draw from, and instead of it going to essential new kit for the fire service, it goes into your pockets.
How many of you guys hold second jobs (perfectly legally I know but still recieving extra income)?
And in response to the party line you need danger money, pass a thought for our young squadies, who on 12 grand a year, get shot at in Basra to come home, not to wife and kids for leave, but some fire station because the FBU are having a little gripe with Tone and his motly crew. I am sorry; I am the last person to support the many of the views of this govt, however, I firmly believe despot organisations such as the FBU should have been left for the Knackers yard many years ago.
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Evening all, I am not a regular contributor to this forum, but I am ex RM and for the last 25 years I have been a Police Officer and the last 20 of them a Roads Policing (Traffic) Officer.
On a regular basis I see the professional work that they do in often very unpleasant conditions. normally at serious road accidents but also at chemical incidents and large industrial fires etc.
During the last couple of Fresco's I was an escort vehicle for Royal Navy and Army (Queens Royal Hussars) leading them out to the scene of their allocated incidents.
During the last lot, I did 3 14 hour night shifts, got turned out to a dustbin on fire, on one shift and nothing on the other two. Not exactly hard work and this was covering the largest council estate in europe.
I believe that a total of 4 % of their work is on emergency response, the majority of which is automatic fire alarms, rubbish fire and skips alight etc.
They need to modernise in their outlook and in the way that they are led by their union, they are there to protect life and property, they cant do that if they are on strike.
In order to balance the above I believe this government is the trickiest slipperiest shower ever to have been voted in in many a year.
On a regular basis I see the professional work that they do in often very unpleasant conditions. normally at serious road accidents but also at chemical incidents and large industrial fires etc.
During the last couple of Fresco's I was an escort vehicle for Royal Navy and Army (Queens Royal Hussars) leading them out to the scene of their allocated incidents.
During the last lot, I did 3 14 hour night shifts, got turned out to a dustbin on fire, on one shift and nothing on the other two. Not exactly hard work and this was covering the largest council estate in europe.
I believe that a total of 4 % of their work is on emergency response, the majority of which is automatic fire alarms, rubbish fire and skips alight etc.
They need to modernise in their outlook and in the way that they are led by their union, they are there to protect life and property, they cant do that if they are on strike.
In order to balance the above I believe this government is the trickiest slipperiest shower ever to have been voted in in many a year.
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Spotting bad guys
Should the strikes go ahead, I wonder if the Green Goddess crews will have to deal with a similar number of mysteriously well-timed tyre and car fires, carefully placed in open ground, started within minutes of the strike officially commencing?
What does it infer if it does not mean that firefighters started them?. Have you ever thought that the people that we deal with every day timed it to take maximum effect.
There were a lot of things that happened that were not broadcast mainly because it did not fit the governments idea of what they wanted broadcast.
Maple 01
I will say here and now that no firefighter will risk lives by starting a fire. I will however concede that we have militants but I do not consider for 1 minute that your suggestion is valid.
Working hard
I have already given my answer that we get paid premium rates of pay and a day in lieu. I personally because of my rank am not entitled to this and do not receive it. I still await your reply to the supposed taxable and non-taxable benefits we are supposed to get.
Spotter FC
Your friend may well have been told what you state, does not make it true though. I state again that they will be taken away this time for use by the armed forces if it gets to a strike.
mbga9pgf
I have not at anytime whinged about my pay. I mearly stated that an agreement was reached and signed in June 2003 that as John Prescott stated for all to hear in the commons " By 1st July 2004 firefighters will be on £25k. This has not happened.
With regards to what the other emergency services are paid, I cannot do anything about their conditions of service. It is up to them to do as they see fit to look after themselves. Suffice to say even after the wage agreement is paid in full a qualified firefighter will still be £5k per annum behind a policeman.
While firefighters work a rota system of 4 on and 4 off, 48 hours per week is worked. 2 x 10 hour day shifts and 2 x 14 hour nightshifts. While beds are available in fire stations we are able to stand down from 2330.
Funding for the fire service comes from the Council Tax, military funding comes from the treasury and is not affected by whatever is spent on the fire service.
Millions of people have more than one job. Whats your point. Look at your MP he will probably be taken in thousands from consultancies and directorships. How can they complain about someone else having a second job.
I have never mentioned anything on here regarding danger. All I will say is that the 2 firefighters buried last week in London are missed by there families every bit as much as by the families of your colleagues that have been killed by hostilities in Iraq. God bless them all.
Should the strikes go ahead, I wonder if the Green Goddess crews will have to deal with a similar number of mysteriously well-timed tyre and car fires, carefully placed in open ground, started within minutes of the strike officially commencing?
What does it infer if it does not mean that firefighters started them?. Have you ever thought that the people that we deal with every day timed it to take maximum effect.
There were a lot of things that happened that were not broadcast mainly because it did not fit the governments idea of what they wanted broadcast.
Maple 01
I will say here and now that no firefighter will risk lives by starting a fire. I will however concede that we have militants but I do not consider for 1 minute that your suggestion is valid.
Working hard
I have already given my answer that we get paid premium rates of pay and a day in lieu. I personally because of my rank am not entitled to this and do not receive it. I still await your reply to the supposed taxable and non-taxable benefits we are supposed to get.
Spotter FC
Your friend may well have been told what you state, does not make it true though. I state again that they will be taken away this time for use by the armed forces if it gets to a strike.
mbga9pgf
I have not at anytime whinged about my pay. I mearly stated that an agreement was reached and signed in June 2003 that as John Prescott stated for all to hear in the commons " By 1st July 2004 firefighters will be on £25k. This has not happened.
With regards to what the other emergency services are paid, I cannot do anything about their conditions of service. It is up to them to do as they see fit to look after themselves. Suffice to say even after the wage agreement is paid in full a qualified firefighter will still be £5k per annum behind a policeman.
While firefighters work a rota system of 4 on and 4 off, 48 hours per week is worked. 2 x 10 hour day shifts and 2 x 14 hour nightshifts. While beds are available in fire stations we are able to stand down from 2330.
Funding for the fire service comes from the Council Tax, military funding comes from the treasury and is not affected by whatever is spent on the fire service.
Millions of people have more than one job. Whats your point. Look at your MP he will probably be taken in thousands from consultancies and directorships. How can they complain about someone else having a second job.
I have never mentioned anything on here regarding danger. All I will say is that the 2 firefighters buried last week in London are missed by there families every bit as much as by the families of your colleagues that have been killed by hostilities in Iraq. God bless them all.
Last edited by Runway 31; 8th Aug 2004 at 09:14.
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Im not exactly clued up on the details and statistics of this whole situation but theres a couple of general points i'd like to comment on.
Firstly, firefighters on £25k a year? Whilest the public recognise the work you do (when you are working) is dangerous, but £25k pa dangerous, when your other emergency services colleagues are on much lower wages?
Secondly, i don't see how the fire service can strike, expecting the Armed Forces to pick up the slack with their outdated equipment.
You say you joined the fire service to save lives, as i expect most firemen did, but you draw the line when you want money. Isn't that effectively putting a price on the lives of people, on the lives of the public you are employed to protect and help? At the end of the day your money, equipment etc comes from the taxpayer, if we're not getting the service, maybe our council tax bills should be a bit lower for a few months?
Firstly, firefighters on £25k a year? Whilest the public recognise the work you do (when you are working) is dangerous, but £25k pa dangerous, when your other emergency services colleagues are on much lower wages?
Secondly, i don't see how the fire service can strike, expecting the Armed Forces to pick up the slack with their outdated equipment.
You say you joined the fire service to save lives, as i expect most firemen did, but you draw the line when you want money. Isn't that effectively putting a price on the lives of people, on the lives of the public you are employed to protect and help? At the end of the day your money, equipment etc comes from the taxpayer, if we're not getting the service, maybe our council tax bills should be a bit lower for a few months?
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RW31
Re-read my posts. Those personnel who served on, or were part of the supporting effort of FRESCO know that there were many fires started in the manner I and others described above. Inference? Who has most to gain from demonstrating a high call-out rate within minutes of the Armed Services' crews taking over? The fires were - in the main - carefully set and placed so as not to cause any risk to life. Are you trying to assert that there was a nationwide campaign by the arsonists and hooligans of Britain, timed to start the minute the Military crews took over? If that were the case, wouldn't the fires have been set with a little less care? Get real - if you can't see it for what it was, don't try to pull the wool over the eyes of those who stood in for the so called underpaid and overworked firefighter.
SBG
Re-read my posts. Those personnel who served on, or were part of the supporting effort of FRESCO know that there were many fires started in the manner I and others described above. Inference? Who has most to gain from demonstrating a high call-out rate within minutes of the Armed Services' crews taking over? The fires were - in the main - carefully set and placed so as not to cause any risk to life. Are you trying to assert that there was a nationwide campaign by the arsonists and hooligans of Britain, timed to start the minute the Military crews took over? If that were the case, wouldn't the fires have been set with a little less care? Get real - if you can't see it for what it was, don't try to pull the wool over the eyes of those who stood in for the so called underpaid and overworked firefighter.
SBG
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Yes Spotting I do believe that the neds and hooligans took advantage of the strike. The fire service had nothing to gain from these fires. I know that they happended as Strathclyde had one of the highest instances of them. All the persons who were apprehended here were non-brigade.
I think that we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I think that we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Last edited by Runway 31; 8th Aug 2004 at 09:11.
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RW31 please specify what is the PREMIUM rate for bank holiday working. It could be anything from an additional 10% to 3 times. You really do seem very unwilling to put precise answers together. I asked for a list of "perks" so that we may all understand better, I have little idea what you get, as do most of us it seems. Perhaps an indication of the TRUE cost would be for you to provide the total personnel cost of a brigade and the number of personell (or full time equvalent) so that we can see a simple average per person, In any case why do you shy from facts about money?
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Working hard, I have already stated that it is double time plus a day in lieu, which part of that don't you understand. It is also in the papers and on the telly. It is there for all to see its no secret.
Ask yourself why we when they are complaining they are not taking away time in lieu under the modernisation agenda. The reason being is that it is allocated as part of our annual leave whether you work bank holidays or not every member gets allocated 8 days towards their annual leave allocation for public holiday working time in lieu. If they took it away it would put us under the statutory minimum holiday entitlement and they would have to allocate additional annual leave days to compensate.
As regards to the cost of the provision of the fire service, this varies across the country. I would suggest that you go speak to your local authority or go down to your local library and find the information for yourself. I think that you will find that compared to the other services provided by the authority we come out rather well. The Audit Commision year after year praise us as being the most efficient service provided and thats before any so called modernisation. In Strathclyde it is around 13p per person per day which considering the service provided is very reasonable.
Ask yourself why we when they are complaining they are not taking away time in lieu under the modernisation agenda. The reason being is that it is allocated as part of our annual leave whether you work bank holidays or not every member gets allocated 8 days towards their annual leave allocation for public holiday working time in lieu. If they took it away it would put us under the statutory minimum holiday entitlement and they would have to allocate additional annual leave days to compensate.
As regards to the cost of the provision of the fire service, this varies across the country. I would suggest that you go speak to your local authority or go down to your local library and find the information for yourself. I think that you will find that compared to the other services provided by the authority we come out rather well. The Audit Commision year after year praise us as being the most efficient service provided and thats before any so called modernisation. In Strathclyde it is around 13p per person per day which considering the service provided is very reasonable.
Last edited by Runway 31; 9th Aug 2004 at 09:35.