Which RAF Stations will Go.
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I reitererate that all of the above is speculation, hearsay and crew room gossip (mostly from the cleaner!). What it does show though is that despite the announcement of the White Paper, yet again, within a week the 'rank and file' return to 'shifting sands' and moving 'goal posts' as we still can't buckle down and do our job because we know that even more change is about to occur.
It is very difficult to muster enthusiasm and passion when there is yet more speculation and rumour, after an already negative 2 year period of anxiety on PPrune and in crew rooms.
Personally I believe that our lords and masters should be more open and honest with us, even if made aware of the options will stop this continued 'eating up from the inside' that is just continuing to occur.
The sooner we all (including families) know where we stand then the quicker we can adjust, adapt and progress these changes to put into place the capabilities that are envisaged. If yet more time is taken to study, debate, decide and eventually announce these other changes and the results of the 'ongoing work', then it is no wonder the morale of Service personnel will continue to be low. However, may I suggest that now is the time to front up with the entire 'way forward' - good and bad - to allow us on the shop floor to get on and make it work.
It is very difficult to muster enthusiasm and passion when there is yet more speculation and rumour, after an already negative 2 year period of anxiety on PPrune and in crew rooms.
Personally I believe that our lords and masters should be more open and honest with us, even if made aware of the options will stop this continued 'eating up from the inside' that is just continuing to occur.
The sooner we all (including families) know where we stand then the quicker we can adjust, adapt and progress these changes to put into place the capabilities that are envisaged. If yet more time is taken to study, debate, decide and eventually announce these other changes and the results of the 'ongoing work', then it is no wonder the morale of Service personnel will continue to be low. However, may I suggest that now is the time to front up with the entire 'way forward' - good and bad - to allow us on the shop floor to get on and make it work.
Last edited by Front Seater; 27th Jul 2004 at 11:15.
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We don´t need airbases, all of our aeroplanes are/will soon be operating overseas on deployments in support of "international police actions".
When one hot spot cools off, the party will just up sticks and move on to the next.
When one hot spot cools off, the party will just up sticks and move on to the next.
IMHO most deserve to go...........explanation follows.
I well remember post 'Options' (the only option was get smaller) at the final dinner night the guest speaker (CAS at the time) declaring that '... it was a good thing to close small bases so that we could move on to well appointed super bases.'
Anyone out there care to list our well appointed super bases?
OK so they all (the ones that matter) have a runway - but some (eg LYNEHAM) maybe a tad too short for the A400 all up.
But which ones have sufficient support facilities for our weaponry and people on and off duty (SLA, SFA etcand decent gym, sports pitches, swimming pool, running track, Education Centre - Internet (to PPrune of course), access to schools, doctors, dentists for the Flag Followers. We could all add to this list I'm sure
Answers on a stamp please (and don't put down BIAP - it rains rockets too often!).
I well remember post 'Options' (the only option was get smaller) at the final dinner night the guest speaker (CAS at the time) declaring that '... it was a good thing to close small bases so that we could move on to well appointed super bases.'
Anyone out there care to list our well appointed super bases?
OK so they all (the ones that matter) have a runway - but some (eg LYNEHAM) maybe a tad too short for the A400 all up.
But which ones have sufficient support facilities for our weaponry and people on and off duty (SLA, SFA etcand decent gym, sports pitches, swimming pool, running track, Education Centre - Internet (to PPrune of course), access to schools, doctors, dentists for the Flag Followers. We could all add to this list I'm sure
Answers on a stamp please (and don't put down BIAP - it rains rockets too often!).
BATCO, under JAR 25 requirements, an A400M at its 2.5g manouevre limited MTOW of 126 500 kg requires a balanced field length of about 1680m at ISA+15 with a wet RW. Even Lyneham's 'bent' short RW has an ASDA of 1826m; the main has an ASDA of 2386m.
So why is Lyneham 'a tad too short' for the Bristol Bureaufreighter?
So why is Lyneham 'a tad too short' for the Bristol Bureaufreighter?
RAF Stations / Unit Closures
Always a great pity when any Unit or Station etc is forced to shut down, often just to satisfy the idiotic ideas of those in the MOD and Government circles.
As I understand (and please correct me if I am wrong), both the CDS and CGS appear to think all these cuts are a super idea, of course their knighthoods, lordships and nice fat pensions etc, are all fairly safe I would assume.
However, what are the thoughts of the CAS as regards the proposed cuts for the RAF, he appears to be keeping his head fairly well down. Is it not time for all the really senior military officers to at last show some courage and openly stick up for and defend the wellbeing of all the UK servicmen and families.
Unfortunately it is so easy for the military to be used as a political football and many people only start to be concerned, when there might just be the odd war to be sorted out. So come on chaps, Chief of the Defence Staff, Chief of the General Staff, Chief of the Air Staff & First Lord of the Admiralty. Show some courage and for once forget being ever so correct and speak out against the proposed cuts and speak up loud and clear for the well being of all servive personnel.
As I understand (and please correct me if I am wrong), both the CDS and CGS appear to think all these cuts are a super idea, of course their knighthoods, lordships and nice fat pensions etc, are all fairly safe I would assume.
However, what are the thoughts of the CAS as regards the proposed cuts for the RAF, he appears to be keeping his head fairly well down. Is it not time for all the really senior military officers to at last show some courage and openly stick up for and defend the wellbeing of all the UK servicmen and families.
Unfortunately it is so easy for the military to be used as a political football and many people only start to be concerned, when there might just be the odd war to be sorted out. So come on chaps, Chief of the Defence Staff, Chief of the General Staff, Chief of the Air Staff & First Lord of the Admiralty. Show some courage and for once forget being ever so correct and speak out against the proposed cuts and speak up loud and clear for the well being of all servive personnel.
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A400 - Lyneham
For once I find myself agreeing with Beagle, Airbus were quite miffed by the duff claim that Lyneham is too small for the A400. The thing is designed to fly off 2500 ft strips for gods sake (albeit not at Max AUM). Our leaders were, at best, badly briefed (not uncommon) or maybe economic with the truth to justify a political decision (surely not!).
I suspect that the silly little Dakota-sized hangars would be the only things at Lyneham 'too small' for the Bristol Bureaufreighter!
One point about SMG. Were it to close, which aerodrome would be used for Bkt 1 Abort Points on trans-Atlantic trails? Culdrose??
One point about SMG. Were it to close, which aerodrome would be used for Bkt 1 Abort Points on trans-Atlantic trails? Culdrose??
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Mr Watson,
I am sure that the fact that the Odiham crews travel to Benson for their Sim has already been recognised by those conducting the study. The crews already travel 2 hours for the Sim, (as I said Benson is in the ball park between the north (Leeming) and southern (Yeovilton) options, and therefore another hour and a half will not really effect any budgets or flying programmes.
If Benson does remain Defence estate property then with a bit of careful course programming the same pholosophy to Benson can be applied to the use of the Sim at Wattisham, when AAC crews detach from Middle Wallop for a week or so to conduct a consolidated Sim package.
I am sure that the fact that the Odiham crews travel to Benson for their Sim has already been recognised by those conducting the study. The crews already travel 2 hours for the Sim, (as I said Benson is in the ball park between the north (Leeming) and southern (Yeovilton) options, and therefore another hour and a half will not really effect any budgets or flying programmes.
If Benson does remain Defence estate property then with a bit of careful course programming the same pholosophy to Benson can be applied to the use of the Sim at Wattisham, when AAC crews detach from Middle Wallop for a week or so to conduct a consolidated Sim package.
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Pity Abingdon was not kept rather than Benson as theres a bloody great hangar (ex Jag maintenance shed known as 'F' Hangar) which would have been excellent to house all Merlins under one roof (whereas at Benson the Merlins were split between 28Sqn Hangar & the next one along sharing with the Tutors cos of lack of space (unless it has changed in the last 18mths)...in fact all of Bensons force of Merlins / Pumas & Tutors could easily been located their and still room to spare.
Thought at the time of Abingdons closure an airfield which had more Hangars (incl the big 'F' Hangar), longer main runway (& a shorter secondary rwy in use), more pan space, good engineering facilities and generally bigger allround would have been the ideal candidate to be a Heli station - & of course not too far away from Salisbury Plain trg area ......ah well the Army have a dam good facility now and are part way through a £34 million pound upgrade i believe.....but at least the RAF still use the place ie: Bensons Heli's !!!
Talking to a few Tutor pilots, they said rwy 01/19 sometimes caused them probs on take off/landing cos of the runway orientation at Benson due to the windy conditons (& i think rwy 06/24 is disused?) wheres as Abingdon you have two options - 18/36 or 08/26 which would have been better..
Thought at the time of Abingdons closure an airfield which had more Hangars (incl the big 'F' Hangar), longer main runway (& a shorter secondary rwy in use), more pan space, good engineering facilities and generally bigger allround would have been the ideal candidate to be a Heli station - & of course not too far away from Salisbury Plain trg area ......ah well the Army have a dam good facility now and are part way through a £34 million pound upgrade i believe.....but at least the RAF still use the place ie: Bensons Heli's !!!
Talking to a few Tutor pilots, they said rwy 01/19 sometimes caused them probs on take off/landing cos of the runway orientation at Benson due to the windy conditons (& i think rwy 06/24 is disused?) wheres as Abingdon you have two options - 18/36 or 08/26 which would have been better..
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From a recent Newspaper article
Bases will also be closed. The headquarters of the Jaguar fleet, RAF Coltishall in Norfolk, will go when its 62 strike aircraft are scrapped; other bases earmarked for closure are RAF Wittering in Cambridgeshire, RAF Boulmer in Northumberland and RAF Benson in Oxfordshire. None of Scotland’s three bases – Leuchars, Kinloss and Lossie mouth – is included on the list.
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I was at St Mawgan on Sep 11th and there were a lot of crews and airlines happy in the knowledge that SMG was still open after they had been turned round mid-Atlantic. In the end no-one needed to use us but at least there was a fallback.
Neil,
Abingdon is increasingly encroached upon by development, making flying ops more and more problematic. Benson is not.
Abingdon is in a part of Oxfordshire earmarked for more intensive development. Benson is not.
Abingdon is owned outright by the MoD and can be sold off if necessary. Benson is not.
Abingdon has not received massive investment in its infrastructure. Benson has.
Benson is 25 minutes by car from Strike, Abingdon is not.
Abingdon is increasingly encroached upon by development, making flying ops more and more problematic. Benson is not.
Abingdon is in a part of Oxfordshire earmarked for more intensive development. Benson is not.
Abingdon is owned outright by the MoD and can be sold off if necessary. Benson is not.
Abingdon has not received massive investment in its infrastructure. Benson has.
Benson is 25 minutes by car from Strike, Abingdon is not.
Styron,
Wittering? The minor units basing study has just announced that a whole host of units are going to move IN to Wittering, so I think that is one that is safe.
If they can accomodate all the JSF thingies up the road at Cottesmore then the airfield may be closed after the Harrier OCU winds up.
JN,
You really like Benson don't you? Live nearby?
The sad fact is that all the SH assets at Benson could fit into what the SHAR will leave empty at Yeovilton, whereas all that is at Yeovilton will NOT fit into Benson.
As to the sims of MSHATF, that is a PFI so the cost of moving it will be born by the contractor, just like Lockheed will have to pay to move that lovely shiny J sim and Trg complex at Lyneham to Brize!
The UAS could always move back to Abingdon, maybe joined by LUAS?
Wittering? The minor units basing study has just announced that a whole host of units are going to move IN to Wittering, so I think that is one that is safe.
If they can accomodate all the JSF thingies up the road at Cottesmore then the airfield may be closed after the Harrier OCU winds up.
JN,
You really like Benson don't you? Live nearby?
The sad fact is that all the SH assets at Benson could fit into what the SHAR will leave empty at Yeovilton, whereas all that is at Yeovilton will NOT fit into Benson.
As to the sims of MSHATF, that is a PFI so the cost of moving it will be born by the contractor, just like Lockheed will have to pay to move that lovely shiny J sim and Trg complex at Lyneham to Brize!
The UAS could always move back to Abingdon, maybe joined by LUAS?
Isn't it rather a long way from Woodvale? Or did you mean ULAS, not LUAS?
Abingdon was a perfect UAS base, having 2 excellent runways arranged almost at right angles to each other. Benson has one plus the limited use secondary. Abingdon never had much in the way of noise complaints, Benson is surrounded by rich Nimbys.
Trouble is, Abingdon has since been ruined by the grunts.
Abingdon was a perfect UAS base, having 2 excellent runways arranged almost at right angles to each other. Benson has one plus the limited use secondary. Abingdon never had much in the way of noise complaints, Benson is surrounded by rich Nimbys.
Trouble is, Abingdon has since been ruined by the grunts.
BEagle,
LUAS, ULAS, not sure what to call it these days, yes I meant the City mob.
A friend of mine was on BUAS, or as they preferred to call it, UBAS, they had a lovely tee-shirt titled " U BA***RDS Air Squadron!
So, is it, for example, Birmingham University Air Squadron, or University of Birmingham Air Squadron?
Isn't there still a VGS at Abingdon? Airfield does seem to be rather active for a grunt base........
LUAS, ULAS, not sure what to call it these days, yes I meant the City mob.
A friend of mine was on BUAS, or as they preferred to call it, UBAS, they had a lovely tee-shirt titled " U BA***RDS Air Squadron!
So, is it, for example, Birmingham University Air Squadron, or University of Birmingham Air Squadron?
Isn't there still a VGS at Abingdon? Airfield does seem to be rather active for a grunt base........
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Proone are we not going to need a JSF OCU then? or are you saying that all will fit in at Cott? Given that there will be more ac in total than there are Harriers now I doubt it! Also they are struggling to fit in the heavy maintenance of the Harriers at Cott now that St Athan are loosing the work(to save money). As for Witt I think there is something in a contract about handing the land back to Burley Estate as it was sold and at the price it was bought for! So for £1000 or so you get to spend £Millions to put it back to uncontaminated green fields! Even the penny pinching beancounters will struggle to make that one work. This therefore explains why they are moving units into Witt! Shame they sold off all the quarters recently as they now are struggling to fit them all in. Don't you just love forward planning. This sort of thing is why were in such a state, short term gains cost in the long run. We'll see the contractorisation coming back to bite us in the ar*e shortly when the companies realise they can make bigger bucks from the military as they dont have the manpower to take over the job any more! 
I may be being ignorant, but won't closing St Mawgan reduce the SAR capabilities considerably? Now that Boulmer is gone (or is that just a suggestion?), anyone in the Wash who ends up sailing rather than flying is going to have a rather long wait, aren't they? 
Why don't they close Menwith Hill? That's been taken off the map already
.
Why don't they close Menwith Hill? That's been taken off the map already
.
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Beags - You Quote "Abingdon was a perfect UAS base, having 2 excellent runways arranged almost at right angles to each other. Benson has one plus the limited use secondary. Abingdon never had much in the way of noise complaints, Benson is surrounded by rich Nimbys.
Trouble is, Abingdon has since been ruined by the grunts."
The Army did ruin it abit yeah ie: Tower now vandalised, & when they first moved in the Army held a series of exercises which for example left the runways lights flattened , churned up grass , debris all over the place etc...but i do know a 'clean up' was carried out especially when the VGS moved in .
Considering its been 12 yrs or so not in full RAF use, the runway surfaces aren't too bad as i have found out running my annual Abingdon Fayre Air days ...and limited runway maintainence is or will be carried out to hopefully keep the surfaces decent... & in general is in reasonable condition overall..
All the runway lamps, traffic lights at hold points & anything else looking dangerous were removed about 4 yrs ago as were a Health & Safety issue...
Your quite right in saying that Abingdon had far fewer noise complaints - thats why for example recently a fare bit of Merlin & Puma night flying has taken place here (& has done in the past)cos Benson were getting a shed load of complaints so this way the noise is 'distributed' around, according to a senior source i spoke to very recently from Benson.
pr00ne - Yep 612 VGS are situated here, have been for around 7-8 yrs i think, so that, Heli activity, the odd Skyvan ,C130 or Let410 on Parachute drops makes it pretty active. Better than a Housing estate!
Trouble is, Abingdon has since been ruined by the grunts."
The Army did ruin it abit yeah ie: Tower now vandalised, & when they first moved in the Army held a series of exercises which for example left the runways lights flattened , churned up grass , debris all over the place etc...but i do know a 'clean up' was carried out especially when the VGS moved in .
Considering its been 12 yrs or so not in full RAF use, the runway surfaces aren't too bad as i have found out running my annual Abingdon Fayre Air days ...and limited runway maintainence is or will be carried out to hopefully keep the surfaces decent... & in general is in reasonable condition overall..
All the runway lamps, traffic lights at hold points & anything else looking dangerous were removed about 4 yrs ago as were a Health & Safety issue...
Your quite right in saying that Abingdon had far fewer noise complaints - thats why for example recently a fare bit of Merlin & Puma night flying has taken place here (& has done in the past)cos Benson were getting a shed load of complaints so this way the noise is 'distributed' around, according to a senior source i spoke to very recently from Benson.
pr00ne - Yep 612 VGS are situated here, have been for around 7-8 yrs i think, so that, Heli activity, the odd Skyvan ,C130 or Let410 on Parachute drops makes it pretty active. Better than a Housing estate!
Last edited by Neil Porter; 26th Jul 2004 at 22:50.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Wittering, the CinC says 20R is staying put but . . .
Simulators:
And the F3 simulator is at Coningsby. The jag simulator will stay at Coltishall etc. Still beats commuting stateside for the Harrier sim as was.
Simulators:
And the F3 simulator is at Coningsby. The jag simulator will stay at Coltishall etc. Still beats commuting stateside for the Harrier sim as was.