Cranwell / Dartmouth to go?
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Cranwell / Dartmouth to go?
From the Telegraph today......
The Royal Navy's historic officer training base at Dartmouth faces closure as part of a wave of heavy defence cuts.
The move is bound to provoke fierce criticism. Previous students at the 140-year-old base include Prince Philip, the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York.
The RAF's officer training base at Cranwell, Lincs, set up in 1920, will also close.
The Army will keep its officer training college at Sandhurst but all Royal Navy and RAF officer training will move to the Joint Services Command and Staff College at Shrivenham, Wilts.
The present Dartmouth college was built in 1905 on land owned by the estate of Sir Walter Raleigh. Before that officers were trained on the wooden ship Britannia moored on the river Dart.
The cuts are part of Ministry of Defence plans to save billions of pounds, as demanded by the Treasury. Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, will announce them on Wednesday, the day before the Commons rises for the summer recess. The timing has been chosen to reduce the amount of time MPs have to debate them.
Mr Hoon will provide no details and will try to explain away the cuts by saying that they form part of a "re-balancing" of the Armed Forces to meet the needs of the 21st century.
We might not have loved our time at Cranners/Dartmouth, but strewth! Isn't Cranwell the oldest Air Academy or something? Bet we keep lots of nice places in / near London tho!
The Royal Navy's historic officer training base at Dartmouth faces closure as part of a wave of heavy defence cuts.
The move is bound to provoke fierce criticism. Previous students at the 140-year-old base include Prince Philip, the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York.
The RAF's officer training base at Cranwell, Lincs, set up in 1920, will also close.
The Army will keep its officer training college at Sandhurst but all Royal Navy and RAF officer training will move to the Joint Services Command and Staff College at Shrivenham, Wilts.
The present Dartmouth college was built in 1905 on land owned by the estate of Sir Walter Raleigh. Before that officers were trained on the wooden ship Britannia moored on the river Dart.
The cuts are part of Ministry of Defence plans to save billions of pounds, as demanded by the Treasury. Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, will announce them on Wednesday, the day before the Commons rises for the summer recess. The timing has been chosen to reduce the amount of time MPs have to debate them.
Mr Hoon will provide no details and will try to explain away the cuts by saying that they form part of a "re-balancing" of the Armed Forces to meet the needs of the 21st century.
We might not have loved our time at Cranners/Dartmouth, but strewth! Isn't Cranwell the oldest Air Academy or something? Bet we keep lots of nice places in / near London tho!
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This has got to be fought. Can I hear the sound of lots of airships and admirals voicing their opinions and putting in their resignations? No....thought not
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
"This has got to be fought."
Why? I can see major advantages in a joint training unit, and Shrivenham has some excellent facilities and joint strategy & tactics organisations.
But then again, I were a Henlow lad and never visited Cranwell in 25 years of service - so I have no emotional bonds with the place
Why? I can see major advantages in a joint training unit, and Shrivenham has some excellent facilities and joint strategy & tactics organisations.
But then again, I were a Henlow lad and never visited Cranwell in 25 years of service - so I have no emotional bonds with the place
We are more and more heavily taxed so that Brown (Save us from the families of Scottish clerics) can throw money at a top-heavy and inefficient NHS, pay classroom assistants more than newly qualified teachers, spend huge sums on anyone who wishes to come to the UK legally or otherwise but national security can go on the back burner. (list by no means exhaustive).
President Kirchner (Argentina), here's your chance to make a name for yourself!
Past graduates of these colleges must be spinning in their graves!
President Kirchner (Argentina), here's your chance to make a name for yourself!
Past graduates of these colleges must be spinning in their graves!
Red On, Green On
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Great idea - with only one small problem for the RN - it's a long way to the sea from Shrivenham, and traditionally the sea is where the RN keeps its ships, and so it is usefull to be by the coast for baby officers to learn about boats etc.
ORAC
Hear hear, OCTU type meself, though I would sound a word of caution, having been to the "Defence Academy" as a guest recently, where on earth would you put the additional studes? Shrivenham/Watchfield already has a diversity of units and roles, ALL RAF and RN officer training would be two massive additions.
What happned to Bracknell, is it still for sale or is it a housing estate?
Hear hear, OCTU type meself, though I would sound a word of caution, having been to the "Defence Academy" as a guest recently, where on earth would you put the additional studes? Shrivenham/Watchfield already has a diversity of units and roles, ALL RAF and RN officer training would be two massive additions.
What happned to Bracknell, is it still for sale or is it a housing estate?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
.....and ALL RAF and RN officer training would be two massive additions.... not as large as you might think after Misters Brown and Hoon get through with the front line....
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I commend the DT for trying to keep defence in the public eye in the run up to Wednesday's cuts - sorry, restructuring - announcement but this story sounds like a rumour dressed up as news. For a start, exactly how much money would you save by closing down the RAFC and building a new one at Shrivenham? You could of course close down the whole station but then you'd need to re-house the Airman Aircrew training school, 45 and 55 Sqns, OASC, DSGT, P&SS, the Red Arrows (then again, maybe no need 
),HQ Air Cadets, and of course the band and that place that delivers pizzas.
I have a feeling the kernel of truth behind it is that there is a proposal to merge RAF and RN engineering officer training at Shrivenham. This has been misinterpreted, willfully or otherwise. Let's hope that's all it is anyway! The Gorilla is right - when I was on IOT we were told Cranwell would be the last station to close, Akrotiri being the second to last.
The Telegraph's defence coverage has always been pants, I think this is just more of the same.
Standing by to consume headdress,
JD
),HQ Air Cadets, and of course the band and that place that delivers pizzas. I have a feeling the kernel of truth behind it is that there is a proposal to merge RAF and RN engineering officer training at Shrivenham. This has been misinterpreted, willfully or otherwise. Let's hope that's all it is anyway! The Gorilla is right - when I was on IOT we were told Cranwell would be the last station to close, Akrotiri being the second to last.
The Telegraph's defence coverage has always been pants, I think this is just more of the same.
Standing by to consume headdress,
JD
What about Boatwork?
As this link demonstrates, boatwork and other practical nautical skills is a major part of naval training. How would this be done at Shrivenham?
Nautical skills are featuring more in training thse days, at HMS Raleigh the initial training of ratings has been changed to give less emphasis on kit and the like and a lot more emphasis on seamanship, boatwork and other practical stuff, in response to the operational needs of the Fleet.
Nautical skills are featuring more in training thse days, at HMS Raleigh the initial training of ratings has been changed to give less emphasis on kit and the like and a lot more emphasis on seamanship, boatwork and other practical stuff, in response to the operational needs of the Fleet.
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Nautical training will be delivered in land-locked Wiltshire using a PFI-provided simulator (the Seaman-sHIp Trainer (****))- which will be late, unable to provide the required throughput and only operate during office hours.
Last edited by airborne_artist; 20th Jul 2004 at 18:32.
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This sounds like a pre-leak to me so that when the cuts...sorry re-structuring is announced it will not seem as bad. Put out a wildly inaccurate rumour to displace attention from whats actually going to be sold off, closed, reorganised etc...
Either that or the DT getting themselves a little confused again. Well done to them though, keep defence cuts in the news or Joe public will forget about them, get what's actually going on into the public domain.
Either that or the DT getting themselves a little confused again. Well done to them though, keep defence cuts in the news or Joe public will forget about them, get what's actually going on into the public domain.
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The DT today reports that the Armed Forces need to make
" £1billion efficiency gains in logistics and procurement". Interesting thought, I wonder how long it will be before the MoD is expected to be self sufficent and make a profit each year.
Cranwell and Dartmouth to go. Is nothing sacred!? I suppose I could just about empathise with how this make would make sense on paper, but these are pretty radical proposals which will require some major doctrinal shifts from both the RN and RAF. For a start one course lasts a year and the other 6 months (give or take). When is the first purple Joint Officer Graduation ceremony to be held?
I hope this is just a far fetched, back of a fag packet proposal from some completely out of touch bean coutner who doesnt know their arse from their elbow.
What made me laugh the most was that Geoff Hoon, who is apparently the defence minister???? is to "disguise the full scale of the cuts by announcing them in at least 3 separate tranches" hmmmmm where have we heard that before? Sounds a bit like Typhoon to me.
Oh and by the way, they are not cuts, mearly a "rebalancing" of the Armed Forces
" £1billion efficiency gains in logistics and procurement". Interesting thought, I wonder how long it will be before the MoD is expected to be self sufficent and make a profit each year.
Cranwell and Dartmouth to go. Is nothing sacred!? I suppose I could just about empathise with how this make would make sense on paper, but these are pretty radical proposals which will require some major doctrinal shifts from both the RN and RAF. For a start one course lasts a year and the other 6 months (give or take). When is the first purple Joint Officer Graduation ceremony to be held?
I hope this is just a far fetched, back of a fag packet proposal from some completely out of touch bean coutner who doesnt know their arse from their elbow.
What made me laugh the most was that Geoff Hoon, who is apparently the defence minister???? is to "disguise the full scale of the cuts by announcing them in at least 3 separate tranches" hmmmmm where have we heard that before? Sounds a bit like Typhoon to me.
Oh and by the way, they are not cuts, mearly a "rebalancing" of the Armed Forces
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0172; 19th Jul 2004 at 15:29.
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Possible merging of things here but anyway. Firstly what is Dartmouth? Its a maintenance nightmare thats what it is! Its old, its falling to bits and to be honest while nice, isnt terribly practical. It is essentially about one buildings worth of classrooms and then two or three buildings worht of cabins, surrounded by ancilliary buildings. Due to its listed status it isnt easy to keep shipshape.
I doubt few would mourn its loss.
However, whats this about RMCS? There is no room on site, there are no runways or boating facilities (apart from a rather fetching lake by the library!) and its run by Cranfield University and Kings College. I think they may be confusing it with somewhere else (I have my suspicions but not saying).
The way to do it is to build some modern accommodation, then some decent joint classrooms, and rejig the training program so that term one is beasting on land (as happens), do the boating on HMS BRISTOL, and combine it with BSSC as part of a discreet module of 4-5 weeks work, using the facilities there plus dockyard and do BSSC as well (as happens to a point already) and then send them to sea and do their final term on land.
Sad, but no real loss.
I doubt few would mourn its loss.
However, whats this about RMCS? There is no room on site, there are no runways or boating facilities (apart from a rather fetching lake by the library!) and its run by Cranfield University and Kings College. I think they may be confusing it with somewhere else (I have my suspicions but not saying).
The way to do it is to build some modern accommodation, then some decent joint classrooms, and rejig the training program so that term one is beasting on land (as happens), do the boating on HMS BRISTOL, and combine it with BSSC as part of a discreet module of 4-5 weeks work, using the facilities there plus dockyard and do BSSC as well (as happens to a point already) and then send them to sea and do their final term on land.
Sad, but no real loss.
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JimLad, you're either not RN or you're an instructor there
I doubt there is an RN officer in the fleet who doesn't have some (possibly very small) sentimental thoughts about Dartmouth.
Where else would you go to get as fit as running up and down to Sandquay? What would be the challenge carrying those telegraph poles on the flat rather than up Cardiac Hill?
Slightly more seriously though, how many more parts of our History do we have to lose before enough is enough? We may all joke that the RAF have habits, that the Army has history, and that the RN has traditions but its true, and its part of what makes us all what we are.
I doubt there is an RN officer in the fleet who doesn't have some (possibly very small) sentimental thoughts about Dartmouth.
Where else would you go to get as fit as running up and down to Sandquay? What would be the challenge carrying those telegraph poles on the flat rather than up Cardiac Hill?
Slightly more seriously though, how many more parts of our History do we have to lose before enough is enough? We may all joke that the RAF have habits, that the Army has history, and that the RN has traditions but its true, and its part of what makes us all what we are.
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"JimLad, you're either not RN or you're an instructor there"
RNR actually! So you're right, I'm not RN - I'm capable of doing more than one job
I guess my limited exposure to BRNC (some 6 weeks in total) means I have a more objective view than my colleagues at work...
RNR actually! So you're right, I'm not RN - I'm capable of doing more than one job
I guess my limited exposure to BRNC (some 6 weeks in total) means I have a more objective view than my colleagues at work...
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JimLad
RNR do a great job, but six weeks on the very short knife and fork course at BRNC does not give you much of a platform here, IMHO.
Also makes it unlikely that you have served as aircrew in the forces, I suspect....
RNR do a great job, but six weeks on the very short knife and fork course at BRNC does not give you much of a platform here, IMHO.
Also makes it unlikely that you have served as aircrew in the forces, I suspect....
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'This wouldn't save money'
BRNC costs some £20m per year to the public purse and is falling apart around the seams.
£20m to pay for 300 students ....maths anyone?
Additionally the place is falling apart - if you had seen it recently you'd know what I mean.
Cost to refurbish >£50m
If I were collocating training I'd move the Officer's into Raleigh _ plenty of real estate and next to the sea to boot.
Justify it ...mmmm. Well you'd have some high ranking help.
surely?
BRNC costs some £20m per year to the public purse and is falling apart around the seams.
£20m to pay for 300 students ....maths anyone?
Additionally the place is falling apart - if you had seen it recently you'd know what I mean.
Cost to refurbish >£50m
If I were collocating training I'd move the Officer's into Raleigh _ plenty of real estate and next to the sea to boot.
Justify it ...mmmm. Well you'd have some high ranking help.
surely?
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BRNC Dartmouth awards a PhD in nostalgia... ask anyone who has marched up that hill and stayed aboard for the prescribed period! Sad if it goes but Tony B and his lot do not deal in history (let alone our Maritime history). Dartmouth and Cranwell will face the axe and the next generation of RN/RAF officers will probably be trained together before moving to appropriate portacabins near sea/runways (HMS Raleigh/RAF EasyLife in rural England). Ethos? This is a new world order, is it not?