Cranwell / Dartmouth to go?
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Whatever decisions are announced on Wednesday, 'Buff' will be away on his Jollies on Thursday when Parliament is in recess.
He'll probably be back from Tuscany by late September should you need to ask him any questions!
He'll probably be back from Tuscany by late September should you need to ask him any questions!
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Why Not?
Given the future size, shape and employment of the UK armed forces, it would make sense to combine all officer training in one purple establishment. The current story may just be an ill informed rumour, but the fact is - it would make sense. Go back 20 years and I doubt anyone could have predicted the JSCSC at Shrivenham. However, it works and makes sense. Nevertheless, the would be no point of the RN and RAF combining, with the brown jobs remaining at Sandhurst - close all three or none at all.
IMHO sooner or later some form of combined inital officer training will be introduced, it's only a matter of when, not if. Forget traditions, as usual it will all come down to simple economics.
IMHO sooner or later some form of combined inital officer training will be introduced, it's only a matter of when, not if. Forget traditions, as usual it will all come down to simple economics.
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"JimLad
RNR do a great job, but six weeks on the very short knife and fork course at BRNC does not give you much of a platform here, IMHO.
Also makes it unlikely that you have served as aircrew in the forces, I suspect...."
Completely correct, nor would I claim that my part time pussers experience counts for much beyond some limited experience in my own small branch and plenty of time on FTRS in the big world of jointery. However, I do have some very valid professional links to the aircrew world (this forum also applies to those of us who give you the reason to leave the ground) and like to keep abreast of current developments/rumours, as I feel this site beats Pravda (sorry defencenet) anyday of the week
RNR do a great job, but six weeks on the very short knife and fork course at BRNC does not give you much of a platform here, IMHO.
Also makes it unlikely that you have served as aircrew in the forces, I suspect...."
Completely correct, nor would I claim that my part time pussers experience counts for much beyond some limited experience in my own small branch and plenty of time on FTRS in the big world of jointery. However, I do have some very valid professional links to the aircrew world (this forum also applies to those of us who give you the reason to leave the ground) and like to keep abreast of current developments/rumours, as I feel this site beats Pravda (sorry defencenet) anyday of the week
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Agree with all of the sentimentality about BRNC.
The voice of Lieutenant Frank Trickey RN (as he then was), Parade Gunner, still haunts me:
and
The voice of Lieutenant Frank Trickey RN (as he then was), Parade Gunner, still haunts me:
"Exmouth Senior Divison, centre rank 13, 'old yer head up. Stick your chest out. If you haven't got a chest, go to slops and draw one"!
"I earned my rank. I didn't go to Gieves and buy it"!
Last edited by Argus; 20th Jul 2004 at 08:26.
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Prole
Hush. We are discreetly different forces that attract different people. Most of the time we also do different jobs. You'll be calling for the same uniform next. Some of our training is the same, some of it similar. However, I joined the RAF and proud of it. I made a positive decision to join it and not either of the others. The changes (erosion) would have to be pretty big to put us all in together at that stage - it would just end up as 3 seperate training facilities co-located or (more likely) the Army would bully us all into doing it their way!
Hush. We are discreetly different forces that attract different people. Most of the time we also do different jobs. You'll be calling for the same uniform next. Some of our training is the same, some of it similar. However, I joined the RAF and proud of it. I made a positive decision to join it and not either of the others. The changes (erosion) would have to be pretty big to put us all in together at that stage - it would just end up as 3 seperate training facilities co-located or (more likely) the Army would bully us all into doing it their way!
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The Royal Navy seem to be getting the rough end of the stick again after the loss of Greenwich now Dartmouth. Since Cranwell was a RN base (Daedalus) perhaps it should be combined to provide OTC for both services.
I've been giving some thought as to what to do with CWL when it closes, I'll have York house for the Egg Banjo Club!
I've been giving some thought as to what to do with CWL when it closes, I'll have York house for the Egg Banjo Club!
IOT at Cranwell may go elsewhere, but I'd be amazed if the station itself was closed. Let's face it, IOT can be done anywhere where there is a running track, somewhere to erect tripods and some classrooms. The training though is DIFFERENT for Navy, Air Force (and Army). I don't care how joint operations get, the operating varies between the services and not because we're trying to be different! We do need to know what the other chaps are doing, we don't need to be able to do their job for them.
Perhaps this is just so that senior orficers can refurbish CHOM and use it themselves because it looks nice
Perhaps this is just so that senior orficers can refurbish CHOM and use it themselves because it looks nice
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No establishment is a holy cow: the die in a ditch issue here is service identity/esprit de corps. I suspect that the defence Training review is looking at the Lympstone model which seems to work well for the Booties. Plenty of spare capacity alongside depleted recruit classes in single service training establishments, with the Army, as ever, insisting on keeping orficers and chaps apart - pobably the price of accepting further Regimental mergers/losing so many tanks.
Much of these "historical" issues are really quite recent - late Victorian say. BRNC 1905. I wonder what the outcry was like when Confidential Reporting came in, not to mention the abolition of purchasing commissions.
BRNC and Cranwell are not important: the battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic are. Every Establishment that closes is painful, but the service survives. The traditions of fighting and winning agaisnt odds are what we are about. Often enemies have included the prliament and the Treasury: ther's a fine continuing tradition!
Much of these "historical" issues are really quite recent - late Victorian say. BRNC 1905. I wonder what the outcry was like when Confidential Reporting came in, not to mention the abolition of purchasing commissions.
BRNC and Cranwell are not important: the battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic are. Every Establishment that closes is painful, but the service survives. The traditions of fighting and winning agaisnt odds are what we are about. Often enemies have included the prliament and the Treasury: ther's a fine continuing tradition!
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BRNC and Cranwell aren't important?!?! 
I may be mistaken but aren't they both listed buildings? There is little enough money spent on our listed buildings as it is. At least they are both still serving a useful purpose and as such get looked after.
The other thing to remember is that Dartmouth is partly funded by all the international students we have (I think one of them pays for about three or four of us! I know when I was there a lot of them were sent to Dartmouth because Daddy had been etc. How many would not bother if we move? How much more expensive would it become to train our own new officers?
Dartmouth, Cranwell and Sandhurst are more than just old buildings. They are symbols of the best of our armed forces, or are percieved that way around the world. What damage would it cause to HM Armed Forces Plc to get rid of them?
I may be mistaken but aren't they both listed buildings? There is little enough money spent on our listed buildings as it is. At least they are both still serving a useful purpose and as such get looked after.
The other thing to remember is that Dartmouth is partly funded by all the international students we have (I think one of them pays for about three or four of us! I know when I was there a lot of them were sent to Dartmouth because Daddy had been etc. How many would not bother if we move? How much more expensive would it become to train our own new officers?
Dartmouth, Cranwell and Sandhurst are more than just old buildings. They are symbols of the best of our armed forces, or are percieved that way around the world. What damage would it cause to HM Armed Forces Plc to get rid of them?
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MKG
I would be sorry to see these fine buildings lost to large hotel chains but Dartmouth and Cranwell ARE just old buildings. Greenwich was special and that is being looked after by budgets other than Defence. TLBs simply cannot afford to continue to haemorrhage money for non core activities. I am as proud of our architectural heritage as the next man, but let Golden Brown pay for their upkeep.
BRNC and Cranwell may have a social cachet for foreign officer cadets but some of our greatest aviators and sailors learnt their trade living in accommodation hulks and nissen huts (not to mention under hedges). we cannot match the first class Military Universities enjoyed by some of our NATO allies. Unless we are prepared to invest in reaching that sort of standard, then we must make our training the best for our own people, using whatever establishments we need to.
Listed buildings are an incubus. Spend the money on more training places at sea and more training flying hours.
I would be sorry to see these fine buildings lost to large hotel chains but Dartmouth and Cranwell ARE just old buildings. Greenwich was special and that is being looked after by budgets other than Defence. TLBs simply cannot afford to continue to haemorrhage money for non core activities. I am as proud of our architectural heritage as the next man, but let Golden Brown pay for their upkeep.
BRNC and Cranwell may have a social cachet for foreign officer cadets but some of our greatest aviators and sailors learnt their trade living in accommodation hulks and nissen huts (not to mention under hedges). we cannot match the first class Military Universities enjoyed by some of our NATO allies. Unless we are prepared to invest in reaching that sort of standard, then we must make our training the best for our own people, using whatever establishments we need to.
Listed buildings are an incubus. Spend the money on more training places at sea and more training flying hours.
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Some may be interested to reflect on how many of our once active military bases are now museums, one is a base and a museum. At ths rate all of the armed forces of the UK may end up as exhibits in museums for our children to visit during history trips, once they have been completely axed.
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I heard something similar from a reliable source at the end of last year, although it was in reference to Sandhurst only. If it was not for this (secondary source!) corroboration I would take this wish a large pinch of salt due to the points raised regarding access to seaborne training, lack of a runway and lack of the extensive miliary training areas that surround Sandhurst.
My early memories of Cranwell were coloured (light blue?) by the aircraft activity on the other side of the road and this helps reinforce the characteristic ethos of each service. Compare this with the Royal Air force patches mentioned in another thread!
We have this supposed motto in our service called "RISE" for respect, integrity, ethos and service. The ethos element is being eroded by those military, political and civil servants above us who see such sacrifices as expedient to their careers. I therefore find myself losing respect at a rapid rate. How about "Aquiescence, Ridicule, Self-interest, Expedience" as a motto, with a suitable acronym!
My early memories of Cranwell were coloured (light blue?) by the aircraft activity on the other side of the road and this helps reinforce the characteristic ethos of each service. Compare this with the Royal Air force patches mentioned in another thread!
We have this supposed motto in our service called "RISE" for respect, integrity, ethos and service. The ethos element is being eroded by those military, political and civil servants above us who see such sacrifices as expedient to their careers. I therefore find myself losing respect at a rapid rate. How about "Aquiescence, Ridicule, Self-interest, Expedience" as a motto, with a suitable acronym!
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Since no one listened the first time I'll say it again.
Including foreign dosh.
BRNC costs £20m per year.
Upgrade cost to current standards >£70m
These are measures put up by serving officer's and published due to serving officers leaking it.
My guess - don't bet on it.
Including foreign dosh.
BRNC costs £20m per year.
Upgrade cost to current standards >£70m
These are measures put up by serving officer's and published due to serving officers leaking it.
My guess - don't bet on it.
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Fawkes
I agree that a lot of our best people have learnt their stuff in the field.
As to haemorrhaging mpney, while the MOD can still "afford" to waste as much money as it does on £1000 chairs etc, personally I feel that it is a weak argument for getting rid of the Colleges.
Not to mention that by having the three separate, we maintain our individual service identities. Much as I appreciate the need for jointery, we are still slightly different people doing quite different jobs. It would be a shame to lose that.
I agree that a lot of our best people have learnt their stuff in the field.
As to haemorrhaging mpney, while the MOD can still "afford" to waste as much money as it does on £1000 chairs etc, personally I feel that it is a weak argument for getting rid of the Colleges.
Not to mention that by having the three separate, we maintain our individual service identities. Much as I appreciate the need for jointery, we are still slightly different people doing quite different jobs. It would be a shame to lose that.
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How long till Tony decides that the Queen’s Commission is an outmoded and class dominated concept, and discriminates against candidates from less privileged backgrounds and those who suffered a state education.
The oath of allegiance will be replaced with an affirmation of loyalty to the Labour Party.
The railways are now controlled by the Government again as they work toward the common ownership of the means of supply and production. The bourgeois middle class are being taxed till the pips squeak and their decadent pensions plans raided as part of the redistribution of wealth. The unions have unprecedented power to enable the emancipation of the working classes.
I’m beginning to wonder who won the Cold War?
The oath of allegiance will be replaced with an affirmation of loyalty to the Labour Party.
The railways are now controlled by the Government again as they work toward the common ownership of the means of supply and production. The bourgeois middle class are being taxed till the pips squeak and their decadent pensions plans raided as part of the redistribution of wealth. The unions have unprecedented power to enable the emancipation of the working classes.
I’m beginning to wonder who won the Cold War?