MPs urge honours system reform
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MPs urge honours system reform
What is this country coming to?
The Order of the British Empire should be scrapped and replaced by a new Order of British Excellence while knighthoods and damehoods should be phased out within five years, a committee of MPs has said.
The Commons Public Administration Committee called for a major overhaul of the honours system, making it more transparent and ending the automatic award of honours to state servants.
The committee said that while there was still "solid" support for the honours system, it said they there was "unease" about the way it operated.
"The title 'Order of the British Empire' was now considered to be unacceptable, being thought to embody values that are no longer shared by many of the country's population," it said.
The committee said that replacing the Order of the British Empire with an Order of British Excellence would be "sensible adaptation" and rejected suggestions of "political correctness".
It said that the new order should, as far as possible, mirror the old one, with the same three levels of Member, Officer and Commander, retaining the old initials of MBE, OBE and CBE.
It said that the only other national honour - apart from those in the personal gift of the Queen - should be the Companion of Honour and that knighthoods and damehoods should be phased out over a five year period.
"Such titles are redolent of past preoccupation with rank and class, just as 'Empire' is redolent of an imperial history. Their continued use strikes a false note (which is why some recipients now prefer not to employ them)," the committee said in its report.
The committee said that "explicit criteria" should be published for each level of the award in the proposed new Order of British Excellence.
The committee said it had found little if any evidence of "serious corruption" in the operation of the honours system but it expressed "unease" at the award of honours to donors to political parties or for "political services".
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The Order of the British Empire should be scrapped and replaced by a new Order of British Excellence while knighthoods and damehoods should be phased out within five years, a committee of MPs has said.
The Commons Public Administration Committee called for a major overhaul of the honours system, making it more transparent and ending the automatic award of honours to state servants.
The committee said that while there was still "solid" support for the honours system, it said they there was "unease" about the way it operated.
"The title 'Order of the British Empire' was now considered to be unacceptable, being thought to embody values that are no longer shared by many of the country's population," it said.
The committee said that replacing the Order of the British Empire with an Order of British Excellence would be "sensible adaptation" and rejected suggestions of "political correctness".
It said that the new order should, as far as possible, mirror the old one, with the same three levels of Member, Officer and Commander, retaining the old initials of MBE, OBE and CBE.
It said that the only other national honour - apart from those in the personal gift of the Queen - should be the Companion of Honour and that knighthoods and damehoods should be phased out over a five year period.
"Such titles are redolent of past preoccupation with rank and class, just as 'Empire' is redolent of an imperial history. Their continued use strikes a false note (which is why some recipients now prefer not to employ them)," the committee said in its report.
The committee said that "explicit criteria" should be published for each level of the award in the proposed new Order of British Excellence.
The committee said it had found little if any evidence of "serious corruption" in the operation of the honours system but it expressed "unease" at the award of honours to donors to political parties or for "political services".
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loadsoflettersandnumbers,
.............."what is this country coming to?".......................
The 21st Century maybe?
What relevance is the British Empire to ANYTHING these days? It hasn't existed since 1947, that is 57 years ago.
Calling people Lord this and Sir that is anachronistic at best and divisive at wost, it also makes this country a laughing stock around the world.
.............."what is this country coming to?".......................
The 21st Century maybe?
What relevance is the British Empire to ANYTHING these days? It hasn't existed since 1947, that is 57 years ago.
Calling people Lord this and Sir that is anachronistic at best and divisive at wost, it also makes this country a laughing stock around the world.
Last edited by pr00ne; 13th Jul 2004 at 11:59.
Yes indeed. Just try calling the next judge you deal with 'mate' and see what happens....
There are more important things to concern our lords and masters than buggering about with tradition, shirly?
There are more important things to concern our lords and masters than buggering about with tradition, shirly?
BEagle,
As I deal with Judges on a daily basis, believe me they would be the first to welcome most of the ridiculous anachronistic trappings of the legal profession vanishing into the historical past where they belong.
I do call lot's of them mate actually, as they do me.
BTW,
Don't call me Shirley!
As I deal with Judges on a daily basis, believe me they would be the first to welcome most of the ridiculous anachronistic trappings of the legal profession vanishing into the historical past where they belong.
I do call lot's of them mate actually, as they do me.
BTW,
Don't call me Shirley!
Gentleman Aviator
pr00ne
are you sure you're not a politician??
my G*d, nearly 60 years old best get rid. So where does that leave the Victoria Cross (and the Station) - Her Late Majesty after all hasn't existed for over 100 years. And speaking of stations, I'm sure Waterloo must offend the Quai d'Orsay!
And another thing
not in my (recent) experience. I recall a certain foreign country (which shall remain nameless) to whom the FO was planning to sent an un-knighted ambassador to replace a knighted one. Unhappy noises from dsaid unnamed country who thought that they would be a local laughing stock due to loss of status. Cue quick KCMG for inbound HBMA.
[and btw, I have no non-academic post nominals, nor do I expect or want any!]
are you sure you're not a politician??
It hasn't existed since 1947, that is 57 years ago.
And another thing
it also makes this country a laughing stock around the world.
[and btw, I have no non-academic post nominals, nor do I expect or want any!]
OK, in COURT then!
"Oi, Mate, that's bollocks. The defence is plainly a lying piece of ****!"
Somehow seems to detract from the formality of the procedings. Even though it might be an entirely accurate assertion!
"Oi, Mate, that's bollocks. The defence is plainly a lying piece of ****!"
Somehow seems to detract from the formality of the procedings. Even though it might be an entirely accurate assertion!
BEagle,
Actually I do talk to Judges in court most every other day, it helps me with the day job, I'm a Barrister.
Those whispered converstaions in front of the court would raise more than a few eyebrows!
WEBF,
No, just with dignity and respect, not cowtowing nonsense and touching one's forelock.
Teeteringhead,
What has the Victoria Cross got to do with an OBE? One is an award for outstanding gallantry, the other is an anachronistic throw back to a time of privilege and oppression.
Engineer,
Do NOT start me on the Bl**dy masons!
Actually I do talk to Judges in court most every other day, it helps me with the day job, I'm a Barrister.
Those whispered converstaions in front of the court would raise more than a few eyebrows!
WEBF,
No, just with dignity and respect, not cowtowing nonsense and touching one's forelock.
Teeteringhead,
What has the Victoria Cross got to do with an OBE? One is an award for outstanding gallantry, the other is an anachronistic throw back to a time of privilege and oppression.
Engineer,
Do NOT start me on the Bl**dy masons!
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Pr00ne
Or should that be (Buff) Hoon
While you're there mate, bin the monarchy. Absolutely no need for them in the twenty first century what so ever.
All traditions that date back further than 15 years (or the age of which ever tw@ thinks these things up) should be abolished.
All ties with national pride and heritage should be severed.
Burn the flag of union that represents the Empire and have a nice new silver one......
....thinking abour it though, silver is probably too expensive and probably harks back too some precious metal that was raped from the land during the 17th & 18th centuries.
Better make it grey.
Or should that be (Buff) Hoon
While you're there mate, bin the monarchy. Absolutely no need for them in the twenty first century what so ever.
All traditions that date back further than 15 years (or the age of which ever tw@ thinks these things up) should be abolished.
All ties with national pride and heritage should be severed.
Burn the flag of union that represents the Empire and have a nice new silver one......
....thinking abour it though, silver is probably too expensive and probably harks back too some precious metal that was raped from the land during the 17th & 18th centuries.
Better make it grey.
Proone,
Just a quote from the London Gazette (or do you disapprove of that organ as being elitist and/or not in keeping with modern values?) "The Queen has been graciously pleased to give orders for the following promotion in and appointments to the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in Afghanistan during the period 1st October 2001 to 31st March 2002:"
Hmmmm, so do you say that awards for gallantry should not be changed, or do you want to go through the list of awards and mark the ones that stay as is and those that should be renamed for fear of offending the wider audience?
let's have a go at some changes shall we? Remember, the rules are no offence and the post nominals should remain the same.
I'll start you off:
AFC - AIR FLYING CITATION (no Air Force soon and the reference to cross may offend non-Christians)
Just a quote from the London Gazette (or do you disapprove of that organ as being elitist and/or not in keeping with modern values?) "The Queen has been graciously pleased to give orders for the following promotion in and appointments to the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in Afghanistan during the period 1st October 2001 to 31st March 2002:"
Hmmmm, so do you say that awards for gallantry should not be changed, or do you want to go through the list of awards and mark the ones that stay as is and those that should be renamed for fear of offending the wider audience?
let's have a go at some changes shall we? Remember, the rules are no offence and the post nominals should remain the same.
I'll start you off:
AFC - AIR FLYING CITATION (no Air Force soon and the reference to cross may offend non-Christians)
Nixor ut Ledo
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They binned the UK civilian honours some time ago down here. Now you can be awarded the Australian Medal, or AM - presumably you don't qualify if you are an 'evenings person'.
"Lord", "Sir" and "OBE" etc have a nice traditional ring to them. Let's not chuck everything out that is worthwhile simply to become trendy.
"Lord", "Sir" and "OBE" etc have a nice traditional ring to them. Let's not chuck everything out that is worthwhile simply to become trendy.
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My only fear of these changes is a systematic undermining of our Royal Family and to slowly attrit the national support for the monarchy. Changes to the UK legal system, House of Lords and "fiddling" with the UK Constitution further confirm my fears. Mark my words, it will not be long before the nation is a homogenous mass of middle-classdom and one step closer to something typically un-British.
Besides, what right have snotty-nosed little government think groups have to destroy the memory of our Nation's heritage, read Empire; a period of our history for which I am proud to recognise. The honours system is an institution which rightly (in most cases) thanks individuals via our Head of State for services to the United Kingdom and not some cheap handout to be given at whim to party sponsors.
Rant over.
Besides, what right have snotty-nosed little government think groups have to destroy the memory of our Nation's heritage, read Empire; a period of our history for which I am proud to recognise. The honours system is an institution which rightly (in most cases) thanks individuals via our Head of State for services to the United Kingdom and not some cheap handout to be given at whim to party sponsors.
Rant over.
Waivar,
Fine by me.
Strange world you must live in.
If you were to wear some of the strange garb I have to wear to go to work from time to time you would know how ridiculous “tradition” can be in the working day.
BigUnitSpecialist,
I just find any reference to the British Empire anachronistic in 2004, and the honours system is a load of outdated irrelevant nonsense that belongs in another thankfully long forgotten era.
Smartman,
Not ALL barristers go on to be politicians, getting here has been enough for me, 2 careers in one life time is enough for me thanks.
Mgba9, oh forget it!
Hmmm, I hadn’t looked at it like that, thanks, another bonus in binning the honours system!
Fine by me.
Strange world you must live in.
If you were to wear some of the strange garb I have to wear to go to work from time to time you would know how ridiculous “tradition” can be in the working day.
BigUnitSpecialist,
I just find any reference to the British Empire anachronistic in 2004, and the honours system is a load of outdated irrelevant nonsense that belongs in another thankfully long forgotten era.
Smartman,
Not ALL barristers go on to be politicians, getting here has been enough for me, 2 careers in one life time is enough for me thanks.
Mgba9, oh forget it!
Hmmm, I hadn’t looked at it like that, thanks, another bonus in binning the honours system!
Gentleman Aviator
m'learned pr00ne
What's in a name? is my point.
The recommendation is not to scrap the Order, but to rename it Order of British Excellence (It is already formally the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire)
So it will still be there, but with an up-to-date name. Do not all countries (maybe China and Libya excepted) have honours?
If we are only talking about names, then the relevance to the VC is clear. Je reste ma valise!
What's in a name? is my point.
The recommendation is not to scrap the Order, but to rename it Order of British Excellence (It is already formally the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire)
So it will still be there, but with an up-to-date name. Do not all countries (maybe China and Libya excepted) have honours?
If we are only talking about names, then the relevance to the VC is clear. Je reste ma valise!
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Why not change the rank structure of the armed forces as well? 'Air Commodore' sounds a bit naval me thinks, a sort of posh chap with a yacht club blazer, beige flannels and an aeroplane?
And as for 'Air Vice Marshal'....
Everybody wears the same uniform, Naval, Army and Air Force - saves a fortune on uniform procurement, and nobody has any rank at all- the biggest guys get their way! RSMs & SWOs are exempt from this rule - they get to clean the bogs for a change!
Uniform to be a trendy, 21st century sort in a dull grey canvas material (So as not to offend anybody)- designed by some arty ponce just out of uni. Senior officers drivers are a thing of the past, and now they have to drive themselves in the station Smart car.
Salary dependant on how much you do. Pilots get the most, Yachties get almost as much, Grunts next and the blanket stackers & MOD policy chaps get naff all..
And traditions dating back to medieval times ? Forget it. They may just offend somebody
Hope Tony Bliar isn't reading this
And as for 'Air Vice Marshal'....
Everybody wears the same uniform, Naval, Army and Air Force - saves a fortune on uniform procurement, and nobody has any rank at all- the biggest guys get their way! RSMs & SWOs are exempt from this rule - they get to clean the bogs for a change!
Uniform to be a trendy, 21st century sort in a dull grey canvas material (So as not to offend anybody)- designed by some arty ponce just out of uni. Senior officers drivers are a thing of the past, and now they have to drive themselves in the station Smart car.
Salary dependant on how much you do. Pilots get the most, Yachties get almost as much, Grunts next and the blanket stackers & MOD policy chaps get naff all..
And traditions dating back to medieval times ? Forget it. They may just offend somebody
Hope Tony Bliar isn't reading this
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We do tend to hang on to some of our quaint traditions, like a brat hangs on to a comfort blanket, long after it should have let go. I'm a keen history buff, but that doesn't mean I want to live in a time warp. If we are going to reward people for their contribution to today's society (sorry, I know that's dirty word to some of you stuffed shirts), then let's have an honours system that has dignity, doesn't sound irrelevant and rewards excellence, rather than rank or position. I think the 'Order of British Excellence' is a great idea.
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I'm with pr00ne and change. All this crap that one sees on the chest of the "great and the good" is just a lot of nonsense and greatly devalues those who have actually EARNED a medal. those that are dished out with achieving a certain rank or station in life should be the first to go. Hereditary peers have gone now lets have a proper clean up. Get rid of most of the Royal hangers on and get some proper respect back for the Head of State but in a much reduced format.
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Bet our brave predecessors who strove to make this country an empire and in two World wars fought to preserve our freedoms and earned their honours and awards would wonder why they bothered if they could read the s**t written on this thread. But what should we expect to come from an establishment led by lawyers who are politicians.
Proone - do you call Bliar Tony, or is it 'mate'?
Proone - do you call Bliar Tony, or is it 'mate'?