Our Boats in Iran
Suspicion breeds confidence
I suspect that little of the the kit you quote is actually usable. A squadron of the latest spec F3s with AMRAAMs would be more than a match for their airforce. A CVS could provide local air superiority to cover such a mission. Storm Shadow strikes could take out local AA assets. A well planned surgical strike could be successful.
Everyone said the same thing about the Falklands 23 years ago. It could be done - but is it worth it? and would the incompetant weasels we have for politicians have the spine? I doubt it.
Everyone said the same thing about the Falklands 23 years ago. It could be done - but is it worth it? and would the incompetant weasels we have for politicians have the spine? I doubt it.
Having to operate right next to Iran would probably make things impossible. And we havn't got the forces to do our current jobs.
If it was possible (which it isn't), would it be worth it? NO!! Three piddly little boats, not worth shedding a single drop of blood over.
If it was possible (which it isn't), would it be worth it? NO!! Three piddly little boats, not worth shedding a single drop of blood over.
Navaleye,
..."A well planned surgical strike could be successful.".....
To achieve WHAT exactly?
Don't we have enough on our plates now in that region without taking on Iran and all that would entail as well? World opinion is not exactly on our side now, or haven't you noticed? A totally unjustified and unprovoked strike on Iran would really kick things off big time.
Wuckfit!
..."A well planned surgical strike could be successful.".....
To achieve WHAT exactly?
Don't we have enough on our plates now in that region without taking on Iran and all that would entail as well? World opinion is not exactly on our side now, or haven't you noticed? A totally unjustified and unprovoked strike on Iran would really kick things off big time.
Wuckfit!
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How long have Minimi been standardard issue to the RM ?
The pics I saw certainly included these as well as the SA80 stuff and several other interesting goodies.
And Magellans ?
Come on were these guys really 'lost' ?
Or are we not getting the full story here ?
Arc
The pics I saw certainly included these as well as the SA80 stuff and several other interesting goodies.
And Magellans ?
Come on were these guys really 'lost' ?
Or are we not getting the full story here ?
Arc
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The troops were put on display with weapons, including M-16s, which were nothing to do with them, and were procurred by other means or from other conflicts.
The boys were also pretty certain that they were forcibly taken into Iranian waters. Persian empire flexing its muscles its muscles in light of the nuclear energy/wepaons situation, methinks.
Not worth starting a war over but how about expelling some diplomats.
The boys were also pretty certain that they were forcibly taken into Iranian waters. Persian empire flexing its muscles its muscles in light of the nuclear energy/wepaons situation, methinks.
Not worth starting a war over but how about expelling some diplomats.
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GPS is about as useful as a chocolate fire guard when your doing coastal / river navigation. Take Bahrain for example. When your slap bang in the middle of the channel GPS will reliably tell you that your about 200 yards north of where you are. So if you went by good old infallable GPS you would be well and truely on the putty.
Sometimes diplomacy is the best method (take note Bush and Blair). What would have those Marines opening fire resulted in? Probably their death and a war....
Sometimes diplomacy is the best method (take note Bush and Blair). What would have those Marines opening fire resulted in? Probably their death and a war....
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Tim,
Serious question fella as I genuinly do not know the answer. Havin done the GPS/50 thou comparison in the Emerald Isle and a whole host of other places and found the error to be measured in feet as opposed to yards why is the misalignment you suggest occuring.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Serious question fella as I genuinly do not know the answer. Havin done the GPS/50 thou comparison in the Emerald Isle and a whole host of other places and found the error to be measured in feet as opposed to yards why is the misalignment you suggest occuring.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Silly question here, but did they have Military issue GPS or were they using their own kit? I understand that quite a few guys procure their own kit due to shortages or simply wanting better than issued kit. If it was their own GPS, I guess it could have been degraded due to selective availability.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Iran uses ED50 as well as WGS84. See here. There is a 125 metre difference, and it would seem a lot of hydrographic charts are based on it.
I wonder what charts either or both were using.......
I wonder what charts either or both were using.......
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Perhaps.. we could procure some of their boats and arrange an exchange! 
Red On, Green On
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Always assuming that the charts had been correctly surveyed in the first place, and that nothing has changed since then...
We are talking about mud/sand held in place by reeds, and the continuous flow of varying (with the seasons) amounts of water here, not big lumps of granite that erode by 1mm in 100 years.
We are talking about mud/sand held in place by reeds, and the continuous flow of varying (with the seasons) amounts of water here, not big lumps of granite that erode by 1mm in 100 years.
The border was defined under the 1975 Algiers Agreement as the "thalweg", that is the centreline of the deep water channel. In a tidal estuary full of sandbanks, though, the deep water channel doesn't stay put and therefore: neither does the border.
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Maxy101,
Selective ability is no longer in use - civvy GPS is as accurate as military now. This has been the case for a couple of years. The only 'safeguard' built in is that the spams can turn of the civilian part of the signal entirely, so only military receivers can work.
JD
Selective ability is no longer in use - civvy GPS is as accurate as military now. This has been the case for a couple of years. The only 'safeguard' built in is that the spams can turn of the civilian part of the signal entirely, so only military receivers can work.
JD
Suspicion breeds confidence
It seems our boys were subjected to wholly inappropiate treatment by the Iranians. If the papers are correct and Iran is next on Uncle Sam's destabilisation policy then, I'm all for it. Iran is far more of a menace than Iraq ever was.
Iran menace
Iran menace
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It does seem like that there is a whole load of bo**ocks talked on this subject. From someone who was out there when this event happened and involved with some of the discussions about how this could be prevented and dealt with again I would like to add my 2p worth... I may have been fed (and swallowed) many a duff/party line when I was there but I know enough about the situation to select what I think relevent:
The guys that were captured were an RN/RM training team who's primary job was to teach the Iraqi's to partol the border (the Shatt Al Arab river) themselves a notorious smuggling zone for contraband/ immigrants and terrorists. At the time of the incident they were recce'ing some possible border crossing points. The Iranians pitched up in vessels and 'forced the RN/RM party to the Iranian bank. From here they were captured and taken away.
The border itself is supposed to lie at the deepwater channel of the river, however this is disputed by Iran who claim that the whole river is thiers. As far as GPS works, the RM tend to work in UTM. That part of Iraq(/Iran??) is on the border of 2 UTM zones and provides much confusion - however GPS was not the parties primary means of navigation at the time - although it obviously may have been used as a 'confidence check'. Map coverage of that part if Iraq is not particularly clear.
The weapons that the guys were shown with were those taken from an American patrol some 15 months ago. As to why the guys did not try to fight out of the situation - the rules of engagement would actually prevent you. Any sort of cross-border fire would be considered an act of war against a country that we are not supposed to be at war with. Subsequent recces and plans to re-navigate the river have looked at the possibility of top-covering any naval patrol with chinnok or puma. In thier current roles the weapons on board the ac are for self-defence only again - any cross border fire to defend boats on the river would at best be marginally within current RoE and at worst an act of war.
When approaching the border myself I often witnessed active SA 6 and 8 systems as well as fighters (unknown) latest int certainly believes that the defence of Iran is significant.
The kit lost included 2 x RIBs, GPS and NVGs. The cost in Chinook, Puma and Lynx flying hours since the incident is at least £30,000
Just some facts that will hopefully add a little clarity to the discussion.
The guys that were captured were an RN/RM training team who's primary job was to teach the Iraqi's to partol the border (the Shatt Al Arab river) themselves a notorious smuggling zone for contraband/ immigrants and terrorists. At the time of the incident they were recce'ing some possible border crossing points. The Iranians pitched up in vessels and 'forced the RN/RM party to the Iranian bank. From here they were captured and taken away.
The border itself is supposed to lie at the deepwater channel of the river, however this is disputed by Iran who claim that the whole river is thiers. As far as GPS works, the RM tend to work in UTM. That part of Iraq(/Iran??) is on the border of 2 UTM zones and provides much confusion - however GPS was not the parties primary means of navigation at the time - although it obviously may have been used as a 'confidence check'. Map coverage of that part if Iraq is not particularly clear.
The weapons that the guys were shown with were those taken from an American patrol some 15 months ago. As to why the guys did not try to fight out of the situation - the rules of engagement would actually prevent you. Any sort of cross-border fire would be considered an act of war against a country that we are not supposed to be at war with. Subsequent recces and plans to re-navigate the river have looked at the possibility of top-covering any naval patrol with chinnok or puma. In thier current roles the weapons on board the ac are for self-defence only again - any cross border fire to defend boats on the river would at best be marginally within current RoE and at worst an act of war.
When approaching the border myself I often witnessed active SA 6 and 8 systems as well as fighters (unknown) latest int certainly believes that the defence of Iran is significant.
The kit lost included 2 x RIBs, GPS and NVGs. The cost in Chinook, Puma and Lynx flying hours since the incident is at least £30,000
Just some facts that will hopefully add a little clarity to the discussion.