Can an aircraft limit be broken for SAR?
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You're not allowed to break a rule. When you do so, you do so without consent. Thus the answer to the question remains 'no'.
I admit this may seem a bit confusing, however that must be the attitude to go in with. I know of many people who were very lucky, and others who weren't so, that got themselves into trouble by thinking that while on a SAR mission they operate without a rule book.
I admit this may seem a bit confusing, however that must be the attitude to go in with. I know of many people who were very lucky, and others who weren't so, that got themselves into trouble by thinking that while on a SAR mission they operate without a rule book.
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Gentlemen,
As many of you will know, I AM ex SAR helos, and whilst I cannot confirm or deny it, I would treat the 'report' with a great deal of caution.
I would be astonished if the said helo managede to get faster than Vne (assuming it was under control of course!)
Rules are very very rarely broken, and I can say that I have never knowingly broken them, or even been able to break them, although I will admit that long distance SAROPS have called for some extremely accurate calculations which have been a bit 'iffy'
Gorilla, you are a fool Sir, and your comments prove it.
Kind regards to all SAR boys and girls
The Swinging Monkey
As many of you will know, I AM ex SAR helos, and whilst I cannot confirm or deny it, I would treat the 'report' with a great deal of caution.
I would be astonished if the said helo managede to get faster than Vne (assuming it was under control of course!)
Rules are very very rarely broken, and I can say that I have never knowingly broken them, or even been able to break them, although I will admit that long distance SAROPS have called for some extremely accurate calculations which have been a bit 'iffy'
Gorilla, you are a fool Sir, and your comments prove it.
Kind regards to all SAR boys and girls
The Swinging Monkey
Spanish:
Here's the link to the Rotorheads thread :
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=135614
Here's the link to the Rotorheads thread :
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=135614
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Black, White or Grey........
It appears that there are a lot of people out there, who from the cosy confines of their computer desks are making assumptions based on less than 100% of the true facts. (For a change)
YES there are rules that should never be broken....
YES there are limits that should never be exceeded.....
YES there are situations that should never be approached.....
Ladies and gentlemen, let me ask you this:
IF you are unfortunate enough to crash your aeroplane into the sea, and you are just outside the radius of action of any of our SAR assets, if they stuck to all their limits, and
IF the weather was so bad on scene that, even if they did make it to you, they would be operating beyond their legal limits, and
IF there was a no chance that they would have any fuel remaining for an instrument recovery, if the bad weather caught them out, and certainly no diversion fuel, as is required by the big book, (or sets of books now), that’s if they reached you, and if they found you in the fog, and if they managed to rescue you,
In fact to lift at all would be just stupid.....
Would you want them to try?
YES there are rules that should never be broken....
YES there are limits that should never be exceeded.....
YES there are situations that should never be approached.....
Ladies and gentlemen, let me ask you this:
IF you are unfortunate enough to crash your aeroplane into the sea, and you are just outside the radius of action of any of our SAR assets, if they stuck to all their limits, and
IF the weather was so bad on scene that, even if they did make it to you, they would be operating beyond their legal limits, and
IF there was a no chance that they would have any fuel remaining for an instrument recovery, if the bad weather caught them out, and certainly no diversion fuel, as is required by the big book, (or sets of books now), that’s if they reached you, and if they found you in the fog, and if they managed to rescue you,
In fact to lift at all would be just stupid.....
Would you want them to try?
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17 years..........
I would agree wholeheartedly, however as the 'facts' of this particular incident are now emerging on the rotorheads forum it would appear that a nearby RAF asset was capable of conducting the mission within their limits as they carry a greater fuel load. So why did the RN crew push on? Service rivalry perhaps?
I would agree wholeheartedly, however as the 'facts' of this particular incident are now emerging on the rotorheads forum it would appear that a nearby RAF asset was capable of conducting the mission within their limits as they carry a greater fuel load. So why did the RN crew push on? Service rivalry perhaps?
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Whilst around the house of triple Torque I was made aware of the recent interest in my "INCIDENT". As the pilot of the aircraft in question I am obviously interested in all of the points of view that have been expressed - some sensible - some based on rumour (the purpose of this site??) - and some perhaps from self proclaimed experts who I hope never have to come to save me.
I have nothing to hide and so shall set the story straight. As some of the more informed (experienced) commentators guessed straight away - the limit that was broken was actually Vmax and not Vne, (although Vne is not published for the Sea King - Check with the TPs and Design Authority at Westlands if you disbelieve that).
Whilst I can't address all of the points raised individually I'm sure that the answers will become self evident.
The call came from the RCC that a suspected heart attack victim was currently on a yacht 192 nm south west of the Scillies and required immediate assistance. Our ROA for the conditions of the day was 195nm (with all necessary safeguards built in). We launched and refuelled to max at the Scillies and then relaunched. After about 20 - 25 mins en-route from the Scillies (55 mins into the job) we received an updated position that now gave his location as 205 nm SW of the Scillies. This now put the job beyond our declared range and if this had been the case from the outset it would have been passed to Chivenor automatically by the RCC and by matter of course had we received the info much earlier on we would have done the same. So for the commentator who suggested inter-service rivalry - grow up because you are obviously part of this problem. We have an RAF SAR pilot on exchange and by the way Chivenor are covering our SAR during an annual dining out night next month.
Now faced with a stark choice - either come up with a plan to continue or call the RCC for Chivenor - this would then entail at least another hour delay - for a guy in the throws of a heart attack??? Our on board paramedic advised that the benefit of every minute early would have a direct effect on the subsequent longevity of the patient.
Now with a more accurate fuel burn calculation we assessed that we could reach the yacht but only achieve 10 minutes on task - which even had we been piloted by an RAF crew might not be long enough for a night time highline transfer (Nil moon - sea state 6). Therefore we took advantage of the strong tailwind and climbed with the resulting reduction in Vmax and achieved an altitude that gave an airspeed that exceeded Vmax by 8 kts (for about 15-20 minutes) which would then provide 20 minutes on task with a refuel required at Scillies prior to our return. This deliberate exceeding of Vmax was discussed and although only an average QHI I was nevertheless aware of the implications of exceeding Vmax in the Sea King - namely the initial danger of retreating blade stall. Now for those of you that are familiar with the expression of "flying on the cruise guide" - this is a practise much frowned upon by the RN, however is an SOP for S61 ops in the States. Basically you get a vibration indication on a gauge that is quantified by a detector on the primary jacks with a green and red (unacceptable) band on the gauge. We experienced a low green reading throughout. And dare I say it to the non Sea King guys but the old girl soon tells you if she is not happpy.
Now I don't condone the willful exceeding of any limits unless you can a. justify the requirement and b. are aware of the implications of so doing.
The various other contributors to this subject confirm what was suspected by me and later confirmed by Westlands. Vmax is 10% less than the Vne which is 10% less than Vd which is the max design speed.
In addition to this course of action we requested that the RCC arrange for the in company MayDay relay merchant ship to attempt to transfer the casualty and make best speed towards us. This was eventually achieved and a transfer was completed from the merchant ship in 8 minutes (not bad for RN SAR!!).
The aircraft was then returned (within Vmax) but now into the known about strong headwind although the fast transfer, better than worst case fuel burn etc allowed a return to Culdrose to be made and a refuel was required even though Treliske was only 8 minutes further flying since obviously flying below MLA was a limit with very different implications and one we were not willing to exceed!! I take the hit that we then took off in an unserviceable aircraft (exceeded Vmax) however after nearly 5 hours in the saddle and approaching midnight I beg consideration and forgiveness.
The patient was discharged from hospital 3 days later with a clean bill of health and no lasting ill effects (he had suffered the initial stages of a heart attack) about the same time that I was warned of possible Courts Martial proceedings against me.
The Courts Martial threat receeded (I can now sleep at night!! without the threat of jail) and we all agreed not to break any limits unless we could a. Justify them and b. understand the implications of doing so.
We reported honestly and accurately our exceeding of Vmax which lead to routine inspections and a seviceable aircraft shortly afterwards.
I do stand by the decisions made although accept that a whole raft of other opinions may be offered although as one commentator stated you don't know unless you are there!!
I have nothing to hide and so shall set the story straight. As some of the more informed (experienced) commentators guessed straight away - the limit that was broken was actually Vmax and not Vne, (although Vne is not published for the Sea King - Check with the TPs and Design Authority at Westlands if you disbelieve that).
Whilst I can't address all of the points raised individually I'm sure that the answers will become self evident.
The call came from the RCC that a suspected heart attack victim was currently on a yacht 192 nm south west of the Scillies and required immediate assistance. Our ROA for the conditions of the day was 195nm (with all necessary safeguards built in). We launched and refuelled to max at the Scillies and then relaunched. After about 20 - 25 mins en-route from the Scillies (55 mins into the job) we received an updated position that now gave his location as 205 nm SW of the Scillies. This now put the job beyond our declared range and if this had been the case from the outset it would have been passed to Chivenor automatically by the RCC and by matter of course had we received the info much earlier on we would have done the same. So for the commentator who suggested inter-service rivalry - grow up because you are obviously part of this problem. We have an RAF SAR pilot on exchange and by the way Chivenor are covering our SAR during an annual dining out night next month.
Now faced with a stark choice - either come up with a plan to continue or call the RCC for Chivenor - this would then entail at least another hour delay - for a guy in the throws of a heart attack??? Our on board paramedic advised that the benefit of every minute early would have a direct effect on the subsequent longevity of the patient.
Now with a more accurate fuel burn calculation we assessed that we could reach the yacht but only achieve 10 minutes on task - which even had we been piloted by an RAF crew might not be long enough for a night time highline transfer (Nil moon - sea state 6). Therefore we took advantage of the strong tailwind and climbed with the resulting reduction in Vmax and achieved an altitude that gave an airspeed that exceeded Vmax by 8 kts (for about 15-20 minutes) which would then provide 20 minutes on task with a refuel required at Scillies prior to our return. This deliberate exceeding of Vmax was discussed and although only an average QHI I was nevertheless aware of the implications of exceeding Vmax in the Sea King - namely the initial danger of retreating blade stall. Now for those of you that are familiar with the expression of "flying on the cruise guide" - this is a practise much frowned upon by the RN, however is an SOP for S61 ops in the States. Basically you get a vibration indication on a gauge that is quantified by a detector on the primary jacks with a green and red (unacceptable) band on the gauge. We experienced a low green reading throughout. And dare I say it to the non Sea King guys but the old girl soon tells you if she is not happpy.
Now I don't condone the willful exceeding of any limits unless you can a. justify the requirement and b. are aware of the implications of so doing.
The various other contributors to this subject confirm what was suspected by me and later confirmed by Westlands. Vmax is 10% less than the Vne which is 10% less than Vd which is the max design speed.
In addition to this course of action we requested that the RCC arrange for the in company MayDay relay merchant ship to attempt to transfer the casualty and make best speed towards us. This was eventually achieved and a transfer was completed from the merchant ship in 8 minutes (not bad for RN SAR!!).
The aircraft was then returned (within Vmax) but now into the known about strong headwind although the fast transfer, better than worst case fuel burn etc allowed a return to Culdrose to be made and a refuel was required even though Treliske was only 8 minutes further flying since obviously flying below MLA was a limit with very different implications and one we were not willing to exceed!! I take the hit that we then took off in an unserviceable aircraft (exceeded Vmax) however after nearly 5 hours in the saddle and approaching midnight I beg consideration and forgiveness.
The patient was discharged from hospital 3 days later with a clean bill of health and no lasting ill effects (he had suffered the initial stages of a heart attack) about the same time that I was warned of possible Courts Martial proceedings against me.
The Courts Martial threat receeded (I can now sleep at night!! without the threat of jail) and we all agreed not to break any limits unless we could a. Justify them and b. understand the implications of doing so.
We reported honestly and accurately our exceeding of Vmax which lead to routine inspections and a seviceable aircraft shortly afterwards.
I do stand by the decisions made although accept that a whole raft of other opinions may be offered although as one commentator stated you don't know unless you are there!!
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Triple Matched TQ:
Thanks for the facts. It seems to me that you did the right thing. Very unfortunate that anyone mentioned a court martial, good that it wasn't pursued.
Well done on the mission! Please pass this to the crew.
Matthew.
Thanks for the facts. It seems to me that you did the right thing. Very unfortunate that anyone mentioned a court martial, good that it wasn't pursued.
Well done on the mission! Please pass this to the crew.
Matthew.
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Triple Matched TQ
Utter respect to you (and thats from an ex crab!)
I'de have no hesitation in flying with you, anytime, anywhere.
I take my hat off to you and salute you Sir.
Outstanding work
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a large bottle of Grouse for TM TQ'
Utter respect to you (and thats from an ex crab!)
I'de have no hesitation in flying with you, anytime, anywhere.
I take my hat off to you and salute you Sir.
Outstanding work
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a large bottle of Grouse for TM TQ'
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TM Tq
Lets just hope all those armchair pilots, who obviouly knew all the facts, and all your aircrafts limits inside out, and have obviously spent many years in the role of Search and Rescue, have learnt something.
Bravo indeed
!!!!!
Bravo indeed
!!!!!
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Here's one for Abiw
First Gulf war, 3 hercs at 30 minute spacing heading for ex-lightning hi- altitude Saudi base. I was number two. We all had problems getting airborne and making altitude. We worked some figures back thro ODm and came out with ridiculous weight. Advised other a/c on radio of conclusions. No 1, ignored them, according to crew, hit ground with hell of a thump and crack somewhere up in centre fuselage. I landed using shed loads of power and most of 12000ft runway (yes, speed way above limiting so I held the nose off.. ) and taxied and blocked him in so we could weigh the freight as it came off.....surprise surpise, load was marked in kilos instead of pounds as movers had said.. Point is, had manufacturers limitations been set in concrete I think we would have all had broken main spars instead of the one who ignored best advice.
The broken one was recovered to big "A" without incident, however the subsequent t/o caused fun and frolics as the hot air ducting was also cracked and burnt thro the wiring to the no's 1 & 2 engines or was it 3&4. It was patched up and flown back to UK un pressurised, day light only, within sight of land!!
The broken one was recovered to big "A" without incident, however the subsequent t/o caused fun and frolics as the hot air ducting was also cracked and burnt thro the wiring to the no's 1 & 2 engines or was it 3&4. It was patched up and flown back to UK un pressurised, day light only, within sight of land!!
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Triple
Sounds like a job well done, also from an ex-crab!
Still a bit confused by heedm's posts, but his latest would seem to agree with the general attitude that there is some flex, in some rules, as long as you apply sufficient thought and care.
I'm sure a lot of survivors are just that because of our SAR force's flexibility and professionalism.
Sounds like a job well done, also from an ex-crab!
Still a bit confused by heedm's posts, but his latest would seem to agree with the general attitude that there is some flex, in some rules, as long as you apply sufficient thought and care.
I'm sure a lot of survivors are just that because of our SAR force's flexibility and professionalism.
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Exceeding the Limits!
Obviously a job well done and properly thought through. I cannot even start to imagine why the powers that be thought that taking Courts Martial proceedings against you would solve the problem. If that is their attitude then nobody will ever own up to exceeding limitations (whether by accident or deliberately in the course of duty) and we will all end up flying unserviceable aircraft!
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TMT
A copy book rescue by my reckoning. I'm just astounded that you were threatened with a Courts Martial!
I have some 10 years of experience doing SAR around the SW and 14 on the 'King'. I think it would be fair to say that on every SAR mission I flew on, where time was of the essence, we exceeded the calculated VMAX for the day. Big deal. You could push the 'King' all you wanted, but she soon told you 'don't go there'. The torque/ptit/vibration et al, soon tempered your enthusiasm for the task in hand.
The calculations that are done for ROA, PNR, CP, 5%, fuel burn, SSE, etc, etc, at the start of a watch are bog standard, and do not account for the actual 'being there'.
We were there to do a job. A job for which we had been trained. We were fully aware of the implications of breaking an aircraft and so did not stitch an oppo.
Spanish Waltzer: You don't live at the 200 mile limit, do you? the 3/3A fuel is about 30 minutes more than the 5.
I think I've lost the thread of what I was trying to say, 'cos it's late, but rotary limits do have some flex; just ask an Op Telic Puma operator
TMT, to sum up, I think you can ignore most of this thread and continue to do what you do best. Fly professionally.
BZ
PS. Still throwing dice for the tea?
A copy book rescue by my reckoning. I'm just astounded that you were threatened with a Courts Martial!
I have some 10 years of experience doing SAR around the SW and 14 on the 'King'. I think it would be fair to say that on every SAR mission I flew on, where time was of the essence, we exceeded the calculated VMAX for the day. Big deal. You could push the 'King' all you wanted, but she soon told you 'don't go there'. The torque/ptit/vibration et al, soon tempered your enthusiasm for the task in hand.
The calculations that are done for ROA, PNR, CP, 5%, fuel burn, SSE, etc, etc, at the start of a watch are bog standard, and do not account for the actual 'being there'.
We were there to do a job. A job for which we had been trained. We were fully aware of the implications of breaking an aircraft and so did not stitch an oppo.
Spanish Waltzer: You don't live at the 200 mile limit, do you?
the 3/3A fuel is about 30 minutes more than the 5.I think I've lost the thread of what I was trying to say, 'cos it's late, but rotary limits do have some flex; just ask an Op Telic Puma operator
TMT, to sum up, I think you can ignore most of this thread and continue to do what you do best. Fly professionally.
BZ
PS. Still throwing dice for the tea?
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Pub User, the reason I say that you can't break rules and then condone instances where you can is to avoid having crews with the attitude that there are no rules when on a SAR mission. It happens. See Spur Lash's post.
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If you stay within the "Rules" (SOP, FOB, Flight Manual etc) you are legally covered by the organisation you work for; they remain vicariously liable for your actions. If you step outside these Rules you are on your own in a litigious sense.
I have broken the rules and cut a hole in a tree canopy with a rotor disk to rescue a man, it worked so I got a badge to wear. If it hadn't a crew of four could have died and I could have been negligently liable and possibly criminally responsible.
This is often the reason that aircraft captains who make that step beyond organisational responsibility are often threatened or even taken to courts martial.
Great thread
I have broken the rules and cut a hole in a tree canopy with a rotor disk to rescue a man, it worked so I got a badge to wear. If it hadn't a crew of four could have died and I could have been negligently liable and possibly criminally responsible.
This is often the reason that aircraft captains who make that step beyond organisational responsibility are often threatened or even taken to courts martial.
Great thread
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heedm
Contrary to your last post, at no stage did I say that there were no rules on a SarOp, and we most certainly did not fly with a 'no rules' attitude. We were always fully aware of the rules and complied with them.
However, the knowledge we had of the rules, enabled us to make informed decisions within the flexibility of helicopter operating parameters. As has been mentioned previously, it's not that easy to push a Sea King far, because it just won't let you!
Contrary to your last post, at no stage did I say that there were no rules on a SarOp, and we most certainly did not fly with a 'no rules' attitude. We were always fully aware of the rules and complied with them.
However, the knowledge we had of the rules, enabled us to make informed decisions within the flexibility of helicopter operating parameters. As has been mentioned previously, it's not that easy to push a Sea King far, because it just won't let you!
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I remember the tragic loss of the Moushole Lifeboat many years ago. The Coxswain rejected 2 crew members because the weather was so foul that he would only take one person from any Family.
The SAR Wessex from Culdrose was on station but the Captain (a USN Lt) refused to allow the Crewman to go down because of the appalling conditions. The weather conditions were way outside the limitations of the Wessex but they remained on station.
The crew of the distressed vessel and the entire crew of the Lifeboat perished in the tragedy.
The USN Captain paid his own fare across the Atlantic so that he could pay tribute to the RNLI crew at the Inquest. He described how the Lifeboat had actually timed a run and "beached" itself on the side of the Ship so that the crew could get aboard. This they did but the Lifeboat itself later succumbed to the Elements.
If you are trying to save life then the normal "Rules" for Peacetime Operation do not necesarily apply.
PS
I see on SKY News that HMG are going to introduce legislation that will allow Ambulance Drivers to "jump" Red Lights in an Emergency thus bring them into line with the other Emergency Services.
There are times when normal "RULES" have to give way.
The SAR Wessex from Culdrose was on station but the Captain (a USN Lt) refused to allow the Crewman to go down because of the appalling conditions. The weather conditions were way outside the limitations of the Wessex but they remained on station.
The crew of the distressed vessel and the entire crew of the Lifeboat perished in the tragedy.
The USN Captain paid his own fare across the Atlantic so that he could pay tribute to the RNLI crew at the Inquest. He described how the Lifeboat had actually timed a run and "beached" itself on the side of the Ship so that the crew could get aboard. This they did but the Lifeboat itself later succumbed to the Elements.
If you are trying to save life then the normal "Rules" for Peacetime Operation do not necesarily apply.
PS
I see on SKY News that HMG are going to introduce legislation that will allow Ambulance Drivers to "jump" Red Lights in an Emergency thus bring them into line with the other Emergency Services.
There are times when normal "RULES" have to give way.