Fitness Test - Fail and you're out!
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Fitness Test - Fail and You're Out!
In order to debate this subject satisfactorily, and in case any important policy makers read pprune - someone must play Devil's Advocate.
I have a friend who thinks he might be a fat lazy useless git.
But surely, this is a deep psychological problem, therefore a medical condition.
An admin discharge? Not on your nelly! A medical discharge with an enhanced pension.
Unless of course we would like to spend our increased defence budget (in real terms) on litigation.
Carry On.
In order to debate this subject satisfactorily, and in case any important policy makers read pprune - someone must play Devil's Advocate.
I have a friend who thinks he might be a fat lazy useless git.
But surely, this is a deep psychological problem, therefore a medical condition.
An admin discharge? Not on your nelly! A medical discharge with an enhanced pension.
Unless of course we would like to spend our increased defence budget (in real terms) on litigation.
Carry On.
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Compulsory pre-deployment training has briefly raised itself above the parapet, but with a mouthful of common sense sandwich has been quickly consigned to the 'maybe next time' bin sitting in AOCs office.
Still the massive quantity of whingeing and raised heart rate caused by this rumour amongst the butterballs has probably done the job and got them all a bit fitter.
Fat people: Get off your backsides and start eating a bit less. We're a military force, you're a shambles! If you can't pass your fitness test ( injury excepted ) then you should be Not Combat Ready and left at home with the children. No excuses.
Any fatty who goes to the Middle East with any ideas that they can do as good and as professional a job as their healthy fit Sqn mate is living in cloud cuckoo land. This is not about effort, it's about reality. Any fatty already doing a good job, think how much better you'd be if you could avoid overheating?
Still the massive quantity of whingeing and raised heart rate caused by this rumour amongst the butterballs has probably done the job and got them all a bit fitter.
Fat people: Get off your backsides and start eating a bit less. We're a military force, you're a shambles! If you can't pass your fitness test ( injury excepted ) then you should be Not Combat Ready and left at home with the children. No excuses.
Any fatty who goes to the Middle East with any ideas that they can do as good and as professional a job as their healthy fit Sqn mate is living in cloud cuckoo land. This is not about effort, it's about reality. Any fatty already doing a good job, think how much better you'd be if you could avoid overheating?
I seem to remember many moons ago questioning how it is that we are expected to maintain a certain standard of fitness to carry out our duties (fair enough) and yet are also expected to do, as long as you're not a total blunty, a long day, secondary duties oh and see the family, bluff old traditionalist that I am. I got shouted down for being a barrack room lawyer and was told to toe the party line!!! Lovely!
I hereby call on Mr T Bliar to introduce legislation for a 26 hour day so that we can finally have the time to do all the things that we have to do. Obviously civvies and blunties will get a specially shortened, though not tax exempt, 21.2375 hour day to accommodate the extra hours that the military are working so that, at the end of the fiscal year his friend Gordon's books balance.
I hereby call on Mr T Bliar to introduce legislation for a 26 hour day so that we can finally have the time to do all the things that we have to do. Obviously civvies and blunties will get a specially shortened, though not tax exempt, 21.2375 hour day to accommodate the extra hours that the military are working so that, at the end of the fiscal year his friend Gordon's books balance.
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whowhenwhy
That gets my vote!
Just a couple of things you gorgot..........
hold permanent standby,
work most weekends
show lots of vips round the jets
give talks on jets to civvies visitors on evening
.................................
Oh, and occasionally get some sleep!!
Still, must get the important things in place first eh?
CCS, GDT, RAFFT, PDT (vital for stats you know!)
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
That gets my vote!
Just a couple of things you gorgot..........
hold permanent standby,
work most weekends
show lots of vips round the jets
give talks on jets to civvies visitors on evening
.................................
Oh, and occasionally get some sleep!!
Still, must get the important things in place first eh?
CCS, GDT, RAFFT, PDT (vital for stats you know!)
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
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rudebrat...
I know several people you'd call 'fatty' (well, probably not to their faces) that are CR(A) and CR(S) cat aircrew. They do not live in cloud cuckoo land and still operate their aircraft in the Middle East to their cat standard, and do so extremely professionaly. But of course the racing snake CR cat obviously does a much better and more professional job then them 
Mad Mark!!!
Any fatty who goes to the Middle East with any ideas that they can do as good and as professional a job as their healthy fit Sqn mate is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Mad Mark!!!
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A 4 day week would save non-essential (ie low readiness units)fuel, electricity, heating and lighting costs and would allow time for PT and secondary duties!
Go on someone....it might get you promoted!
What does p s me off is the growing perception I have of bean-counting for the sake of bean-counting. Equipment got to Iraq, however was not distributed within theatre....it got there on paper so that's alright then. There are a few lardarses that show up as an unsightly statistic...so let's revamp the fitness test system (yet again) and make everyone requalify or make everyone do pre-deployment PT (hopefully not, as it may turn out). One instance requires money spending...let's not do that. The other instance just involves f king people around at no cost. A no-brainer for those that pass as leaders in our service today!
Go on someone....it might get you promoted!
What does p
s me off is the growing perception I have of bean-counting for the sake of bean-counting. Equipment got to Iraq, however was not distributed within theatre....it got there on paper so that's alright then. There are a few lardarses that show up as an unsightly statistic...so let's revamp the fitness test system (yet again) and make everyone requalify or make everyone do pre-deployment PT (hopefully not, as it may turn out). One instance requires money spending...let's not do that. The other instance just involves f king people around at no cost. A no-brainer for those that pass as leaders in our service today!
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The fitness test is a piece of piss and anyone who cant pass it first time should be told to F*ck Off, let alone be given four attempts. The offenders should be charged if of appropriate rank or 1021'd if of the right calibre.
There are a cadre of people out there who avoid CCS and fitness tests due to a chronic lack of moral fibre and it boils my piss.
There are a cadre of people out there who avoid CCS and fitness tests due to a chronic lack of moral fibre and it boils my piss.
If you're over 40 and hold an ATPL, you have a medical every 6 months, rather than annually as in HMFC (unless you're over 50 and the medical centre have read the rules)
Isn't that a reasonable way to assess aircrew fitness - by doctors not jockstrappers? Discuss.
Of course, if you're not aircrew, that doesn't really hold sway.
Isn't that a reasonable way to assess aircrew fitness - by doctors not jockstrappers? Discuss.
Of course, if you're not aircrew, that doesn't really hold sway.
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BEagle,
yet again, your common sense approach and comments come to the fore, and once again you get my vote.
It should be the medics who decide whether or not we are fit to fly, NOT a bunch of PTIs who have nothing better to do than kick a ball around all day, and pi$$ people about with their unearned 'power'
Dirty - you are a nob! If you can't say anything sensible, then don't say anything at all. Lack of moral fibre?? I doubt you even understand the terminology.
Regards to all (except the nob Sanchez)
The Swinging Monkey
yet again, your common sense approach and comments come to the fore, and once again you get my vote.
It should be the medics who decide whether or not we are fit to fly, NOT a bunch of PTIs who have nothing better to do than kick a ball around all day, and pi$$ people about with their unearned 'power'
Dirty - you are a nob! If you can't say anything sensible, then don't say anything at all. Lack of moral fibre?? I doubt you even understand the terminology.
Regards to all (except the nob Sanchez)
The Swinging Monkey
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I know several people that I would call 'fatty' to their faces; CR (A) fatties and CR (S) fatties, it matters not. They're still fatties!
I don't doubt that they do a good job sitting in aircon cockpits at FL250, but if the aircraft ( god forbid ) gets downed are they really best positoned to evade through the desert? Are they in the best position to help load an aircraft that has landed at a bare base and needs to turnaround ASAP. What about the fat engineer sweating working on your aircraft. Is he likely to be doing as good a job as the healthy fit geezer. Professional people will of course get the job done, but if they were fitter would they be doing a better and more efficient job? This isn't just about aircrew, it's about being in the military. It applies to Aircrew, groundcrew, blunties and RAF Regt. It's about doing the best job you possibly can to maximise the effort for the team.
If you're fat/unfit you can't maximise this effort. Fat RAF personnel are one of the main reasons we're seen as a waste of space by the other military formations.
Anybody who argues that RAF aircrew should be assessed like the civilian airlines should perhaps leave and fly for one, if that's where they think it's at! Fitness to fly and the fitness level required of a military aviator are two differing requirements. Most military pilots will have realised this, even some VC10 pilots.
Failed fitness test = NCR. Bring it on.
PS You don't need to be thin to be fit or vice versa, apologies to any overweight fit people, I didn't mean you!
I don't doubt that they do a good job sitting in aircon cockpits at FL250, but if the aircraft ( god forbid ) gets downed are they really best positoned to evade through the desert? Are they in the best position to help load an aircraft that has landed at a bare base and needs to turnaround ASAP. What about the fat engineer sweating working on your aircraft. Is he likely to be doing as good a job as the healthy fit geezer. Professional people will of course get the job done, but if they were fitter would they be doing a better and more efficient job? This isn't just about aircrew, it's about being in the military. It applies to Aircrew, groundcrew, blunties and RAF Regt. It's about doing the best job you possibly can to maximise the effort for the team.
If you're fat/unfit you can't maximise this effort. Fat RAF personnel are one of the main reasons we're seen as a waste of space by the other military formations.
Anybody who argues that RAF aircrew should be assessed like the civilian airlines should perhaps leave and fly for one, if that's where they think it's at! Fitness to fly and the fitness level required of a military aviator are two differing requirements. Most military pilots will have realised this, even some VC10 pilots.
Failed fitness test = NCR. Bring it on.
PS You don't need to be thin to be fit or vice versa, apologies to any overweight fit people, I didn't mean you!
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the swinging chimp
just expressing an opinion, after all this is a forum for that kind of thing, sorry if you dont agree with me but just say what i see at my little corner of the RAF where there are certain individuals who havent done CCS for many a moon due to their medical downgrading for having a band aid on their ankle. Also there are more than a healthy amount of people in our "fighting force" who couldn't even pass water, let alone a fitness test. Just disgruntles me a little when you see those who dont do their bit for the team. Obviously rattled your cage though, no offence intended, but would rather you didnt decree what is "suitable" and what isnt for this forum. Apologies if you are an ex jockstrapper or bluntie.
Also, what makes you think that I am not qualified to decide what a lack of moral fibre is?
Regards DS
just expressing an opinion, after all this is a forum for that kind of thing, sorry if you dont agree with me but just say what i see at my little corner of the RAF where there are certain individuals who havent done CCS for many a moon due to their medical downgrading for having a band aid on their ankle. Also there are more than a healthy amount of people in our "fighting force" who couldn't even pass water, let alone a fitness test. Just disgruntles me a little when you see those who dont do their bit for the team. Obviously rattled your cage though, no offence intended, but would rather you didnt decree what is "suitable" and what isnt for this forum. Apologies if you are an ex jockstrapper or bluntie.
Also, what makes you think that I am not qualified to decide what a lack of moral fibre is?
Regards DS
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In the RN all on board ship are required and trained to be able to fight fires.
Therefore, in my opinion, all should be fit enough to make a very good stab at fighting the fire, regardless of trade/rank. It might not need much fitness to be the radar operator, but if you can't fight the fire, then you are worse than a dead weight
Lose the ship, and you've no chance on your own in the oggin.
Perhaps it's not so clear cut in the RAF, but the point remains - just being fit enough to do your primary task might not be enough when push comes to shove.
Therefore, in my opinion, all should be fit enough to make a very good stab at fighting the fire, regardless of trade/rank. It might not need much fitness to be the radar operator, but if you can't fight the fire, then you are worse than a dead weight
Lose the ship, and you've no chance on your own in the oggin.
Perhaps it's not so clear cut in the RAF, but the point remains - just being fit enough to do your primary task might not be enough when push comes to shove.
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Oh Dirty, what have I done?
You don't like it cos I disagree with you, and when I agree with old BEags, I'm licking his arse! well, well, can't win can I?
OK, firstly how does skipping CCS or RAFFT make you lack morale fibre? I didn't miss or fail any CCS or RAFFT, but I know lots who did, and they most certainly did not lack morale fibre in any way. How can you possibly make such a judgement?? It shows a somewhat arrogant attitude on your part old bean.
I am most certainly NOT an ex Bluntie (that was probably the biggest insult you could bestow on me) but I did spend 32 years in the RAF, flying for about 31 of those years. I readily admit that towards the end of my time, I did get overweight and lass fit, and whilst I won't make excuses there were mitigating reasons.
However, despite being overweight, it never affected my ability to perform my flying duties in any way at all. And, even if I had failed the fitness test, or refused to do the CCS it would not have meant that I lacked morale fibre. I would challenge you to swing from a long rope, at night in a gale blah.
Your comments were offensive, and if you are who you claim to be, then you will retract the ones about lack of morale fibre. Fitness has NOTHING whatsoever to do with morale fibre at all.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
BEags old chap, sorry for agreeing with you!
You don't like it cos I disagree with you, and when I agree with old BEags, I'm licking his arse! well, well, can't win can I?
OK, firstly how does skipping CCS or RAFFT make you lack morale fibre? I didn't miss or fail any CCS or RAFFT, but I know lots who did, and they most certainly did not lack morale fibre in any way. How can you possibly make such a judgement?? It shows a somewhat arrogant attitude on your part old bean.
I am most certainly NOT an ex Bluntie (that was probably the biggest insult you could bestow on me) but I did spend 32 years in the RAF, flying for about 31 of those years. I readily admit that towards the end of my time, I did get overweight and lass fit, and whilst I won't make excuses there were mitigating reasons.
However, despite being overweight, it never affected my ability to perform my flying duties in any way at all. And, even if I had failed the fitness test, or refused to do the CCS it would not have meant that I lacked morale fibre. I would challenge you to swing from a long rope, at night in a gale blah.
Your comments were offensive, and if you are who you claim to be, then you will retract the ones about lack of morale fibre. Fitness has NOTHING whatsoever to do with morale fibre at all.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
BEags old chap, sorry for agreeing with you!
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Swinging Chimp
Retracted final comment as you will have seen, unnecessary and childish!!!
My point is simple, the RAFFT is something that we all (bar Wg Cdrs) and above we al have to do. There are some people who get out of it one way and another because of trivial issues, which I see as a lack of moral fibre, not morale fibre. My understanding of this is someone who isnt prepared to suffer a little personal pain to achieve a goal. If this is wrong then I stand corrected. Dont know if that is a typo or wrong end of stick but I am not talking about morale, I am talking about a handful people, who wherever you are in the air force seem to whinge, whine and get out of doing the physical stuff because it doesnt suit them. Maybe I should have been a little more eloquent with my original post but the fact still remains that these people exist and it annoys me.
I am sorry that you find my view arrogant, but it is exactly that, my view! After all these are people who we are trained to fight with, but they dont want to go in the chamber cos it makes their eyes hurt. If they cant hack it they should go elsewhere.
I dont think it is unreasonable for people to be expected to pass their fitness test first time. If they cant be bothered to keep fit, then what does that say about their suitability for a career in the military?
Retracted final comment as you will have seen, unnecessary and childish!!!
My point is simple, the RAFFT is something that we all (bar Wg Cdrs) and above we al have to do. There are some people who get out of it one way and another because of trivial issues, which I see as a lack of moral fibre, not morale fibre. My understanding of this is someone who isnt prepared to suffer a little personal pain to achieve a goal. If this is wrong then I stand corrected. Dont know if that is a typo or wrong end of stick but I am not talking about morale, I am talking about a handful people, who wherever you are in the air force seem to whinge, whine and get out of doing the physical stuff because it doesnt suit them. Maybe I should have been a little more eloquent with my original post but the fact still remains that these people exist and it annoys me.
I am sorry that you find my view arrogant, but it is exactly that, my view! After all these are people who we are trained to fight with, but they dont want to go in the chamber cos it makes their eyes hurt. If they cant hack it they should go elsewhere.
I dont think it is unreasonable for people to be expected to pass their fitness test first time. If they cant be bothered to keep fit, then what does that say about their suitability for a career in the military?
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Can someone correct my ignorance, but I thought all ranks had to do the RAFFT, and that the CCS requirement was mandatory up to Wg Cdr, with some Wg Cdrs and above in expeditionary-type jobs (which job isn't now
) requiring CCS currency.
My view is that, if the lowest AC requires CCS and RAFFT as a minimum, then CAS should be running the bleep test and in the gas chamber alongside him. Any other scenario displays a disgraceful and lamentable lack of leadership from people that are paid large amounts of money to supposedly know better. We are indeed dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants, as those who invoked the name of Douglas Bader have pointed out.
) requiring CCS currency.My view is that, if the lowest AC requires CCS and RAFFT as a minimum, then CAS should be running the bleep test and in the gas chamber alongside him. Any other scenario displays a disgraceful and lamentable lack of leadership from people that are paid large amounts of money to supposedly know better. We are indeed dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants, as those who invoked the name of Douglas Bader have pointed out.
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Double Standards
....I think this whole argument brings up a wider issue; that of double standards.
CCS/RAFFT etc. etc. have to be commented upon in OJARs only if the individual has not completed them, which is a fair call, as O's and NCO's should lead by example.
BUT:
To have that comment raised and written by someone who has not completed these things himself is lunacy.......... credibility, anyone?? Discuss.
CCS/RAFFT etc. etc. have to be commented upon in OJARs only if the individual has not completed them, which is a fair call, as O's and NCO's should lead by example.
BUT:
To have that comment raised and written by someone who has not completed these things himself is lunacy.......... credibility, anyone?? Discuss.
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Gentlemen
Some facts for the thread:
iaw QR430, the RAFFT is mandatory for all ranks: I have personally taken CAS (not the present one i might add) on his test, and just taken my (Gp Capt) Stn Cdr's today. Those over 50 take it voluntarily if they wish.
The RAFFT is not a test of operational fitness/ fitness to fly/ fitness to do any job. It is a health assessment. If you can pass it, it can reasonably safely be said that all or most of the parts that make up the healthy you, are in order: ie diet, alcohol consumption, exercise, cholesterol etc. However, some people are naturally fit, and can pass the test despite poor diet, smoking heavily and drinking vast quantites. No assessment is foolproof: this is the best field test, that is easy to administer and is repeatable. For instance you would complain if you failed the 1.5 mile run if you took it on a windy day.
The sit ups are crap, but they are the best way to do them to standardise the movement. if you have a bad back, you can get the SMO to make you exempt that part of the RAFFT and still take the rest.
The Policy letter which started off the thread simply provides 'teeth' for flt cdrs to use to work on those individuals who do not respond to remedial training. Put simply: if you fail the RAFFT and undergo the 18 week remedial training package as prescribed by your friendly PTI, you will pass the test, or at the very least make an improvement. If you are making an improvement, you will have nothing to fear from the policy because you are showing some sort of positive attitude. If you dont improve (and there is no, ie medical, good reason) you have not done your remedial package: Action can now be taken whereas in the past you would probably have been forgotten.
Finally, PTIs do not all sit around discussing the next fun run or kicking footballs around the gym: we are too busy drinking coffee, admiring ourselves in the mirror and using the sunbed....
Some facts for the thread:
iaw QR430, the RAFFT is mandatory for all ranks: I have personally taken CAS (not the present one i might add) on his test, and just taken my (Gp Capt) Stn Cdr's today. Those over 50 take it voluntarily if they wish.
The RAFFT is not a test of operational fitness/ fitness to fly/ fitness to do any job. It is a health assessment. If you can pass it, it can reasonably safely be said that all or most of the parts that make up the healthy you, are in order: ie diet, alcohol consumption, exercise, cholesterol etc. However, some people are naturally fit, and can pass the test despite poor diet, smoking heavily and drinking vast quantites. No assessment is foolproof: this is the best field test, that is easy to administer and is repeatable. For instance you would complain if you failed the 1.5 mile run if you took it on a windy day.
The sit ups are crap, but they are the best way to do them to standardise the movement. if you have a bad back, you can get the SMO to make you exempt that part of the RAFFT and still take the rest.
The Policy letter which started off the thread simply provides 'teeth' for flt cdrs to use to work on those individuals who do not respond to remedial training. Put simply: if you fail the RAFFT and undergo the 18 week remedial training package as prescribed by your friendly PTI, you will pass the test, or at the very least make an improvement. If you are making an improvement, you will have nothing to fear from the policy because you are showing some sort of positive attitude. If you dont improve (and there is no, ie medical, good reason) you have not done your remedial package: Action can now be taken whereas in the past you would probably have been forgotten.
Finally, PTIs do not all sit around discussing the next fun run or kicking footballs around the gym: we are too busy drinking coffee, admiring ourselves in the mirror and using the sunbed....
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There is obviously resentment at the new system, which I admit to feeling myself. It can be agreed that:
a. A minimum level of fitness is necessary.
b. Anyone dodging this is likely to increase the burden on others.
However:
a. Another set of hoops to jump through makes us all upset.
b. We particularly resent the "nanny state" attitude that the RAF excel at on occasion.
c. The f@#k-about factor the RAF excel at also upsets us.
d. Double standards upset us even more.
It's a balance between the two and the system tends to upset the majority rather than tackling the minority. Like the collective reamings we have all endured at one stage, when the tempting response is "p!ss off Sir, I pull my weight, don't you have the b@lls to tackle those that do't".
a. A minimum level of fitness is necessary.
b. Anyone dodging this is likely to increase the burden on others.
However:
a. Another set of hoops to jump through makes us all upset.
b. We particularly resent the "nanny state" attitude that the RAF excel at on occasion.
c. The f@#k-about factor the RAF excel at also upsets us.
d. Double standards upset us even more.
It's a balance between the two and the system tends to upset the majority rather than tackling the minority. Like the collective reamings we have all endured at one stage, when the tempting response is "p!ss off Sir, I pull my weight, don't you have the b@lls to tackle those that do't".
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Dirty
I am almost in complete agreement with you and I do believe that avoiding both the RAFFT and CCS, in whatever medium, shows a lack of moral fibre.
More importantly, in MY view, I do believe that it shows a massive lack of self discipline. Maintaining a basic degree of fitness and knowledge on CCS based subjects is surely a minimum in todays current environment which sees the Air Force reducing in numbers almost daily.
In addition, I also believe that a good degree of fitness is beneficial to both yourself and the people working with you. Lets face it no one likes picking up the pieces after a less than fit individual can not up the pace when it is necessary, in whatever branch it may be.
Finally I also agree with the fact that it is a disgrace, highlighted by Jesshthedog, that higher ranking individuals are exempt from one/both of the afformentioned tests. Surely if they are imposing such a decree then they should at least be prepared to lead from the front. I am aware that some high ranking members do indeed share this point of view but the majority are preaching from a much higher pedestal. If this was indeed imposed on this sector of the Air Force then, I do agree with a previous comment earlier in the thread, it would complete a much needed culling of the Airships.
More Air ranks and above than aircraft, surely not!!
I am almost in complete agreement with you and I do believe that avoiding both the RAFFT and CCS, in whatever medium, shows a lack of moral fibre.
More importantly, in MY view, I do believe that it shows a massive lack of self discipline. Maintaining a basic degree of fitness and knowledge on CCS based subjects is surely a minimum in todays current environment which sees the Air Force reducing in numbers almost daily.
In addition, I also believe that a good degree of fitness is beneficial to both yourself and the people working with you. Lets face it no one likes picking up the pieces after a less than fit individual can not up the pace when it is necessary, in whatever branch it may be.
Finally I also agree with the fact that it is a disgrace, highlighted by Jesshthedog, that higher ranking individuals are exempt from one/both of the afformentioned tests. Surely if they are imposing such a decree then they should at least be prepared to lead from the front. I am aware that some high ranking members do indeed share this point of view but the majority are preaching from a much higher pedestal. If this was indeed imposed on this sector of the Air Force then, I do agree with a previous comment earlier in the thread, it would complete a much needed culling of the Airships.
More Air ranks and above than aircraft, surely not!!
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I humbly volunteer to be crewed with the 'unfits' 'fatties', 'lazy b@st@rds' or whatever you'd like to call them. If they are exceptional in the air then they have less chance of crashing in hostile territory. If we are unlucky then I'll outrun them when the baddies come and they can keep the baddies busy for me.