Hurricane Minor Crash at Duxford
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Good point pr00ne.
The majority of Spitfires and Hurricanes flying about are civilian owned anyway. In these days of cutbacks I can see the BBMF having to be operated under some sort of civ/mil system. Who cares, as long as they're flying.
The majority of Spitfires and Hurricanes flying about are civilian owned anyway. In these days of cutbacks I can see the BBMF having to be operated under some sort of civ/mil system. Who cares, as long as they're flying.
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Good point Pr00n… No it’s not… It’s a bl00dy awful point!
Maybe I’ve missed the point, but from what I’m reading it looks like you’re saying that because a spitfire is no longer a rare site in our skies, the BBMF should be disbanded… What a fantastic attitude you have towards aircraft preservation. It still surprises me that the RAF maintain the BBMF, but for as long as they do, I’ll continue to ‘take my hat off’ to them.
Still, I do think they should be moved here to Scampton! Have them along with the Arrows, and a bit of a ‘visitors centre’ like they have a Conningsby…. I can see that being a real success!!
Maybe I’ve missed the point, but from what I’m reading it looks like you’re saying that because a spitfire is no longer a rare site in our skies, the BBMF should be disbanded… What a fantastic attitude you have towards aircraft preservation. It still surprises me that the RAF maintain the BBMF, but for as long as they do, I’ll continue to ‘take my hat off’ to them.
Still, I do think they should be moved here to Scampton! Have them along with the Arrows, and a bit of a ‘visitors centre’ like they have a Conningsby…. I can see that being a real success!!
GD,
Warbirds are sold and traded all the time, even the BBMF have done it!
Just because I suggested that the BBMF may no longer be as relevant as it once was has no bearing on my view of aircraft preservation!
I am suggesting another look at the rational for the existence of the BBMF as a publicaly funded organisation, just like someone did to the Swordfish Preservation Flight, sorry, I meant the RNHF!
Is it really the role of a modern Air Force in todays climate to be operating warbirds?
Warbirds are sold and traded all the time, even the BBMF have done it!
Just because I suggested that the BBMF may no longer be as relevant as it once was has no bearing on my view of aircraft preservation!
I am suggesting another look at the rational for the existence of the BBMF as a publicaly funded organisation, just like someone did to the Swordfish Preservation Flight, sorry, I meant the RNHF!
Is it really the role of a modern Air Force in todays climate to be operating warbirds?
AllTrimDoubt,
Said;
"What's wrong with today's climate? Positively sunny and all
tickettyboo where I am at the moment old chap!"
Tee Hee!!
Said;
"What's wrong with today's climate? Positively sunny and all
tickettyboo where I am at the moment old chap!"
Tee Hee!!
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Proone old chap,
I must disagree with you on this.
The aircraft of the BBMF belong to the nation, and that is where they should stay, well out of the reach of rich businessmen.
I would not wish to get into the rights and wrongs of civilians displaying warbirds, however if you take a long hard look at recent (tragic) airshows over the last couple of years or so, I regret to say that the statistics for 'civilian-handled' warbirds is NOT good.
I am in no way pointing the finger at anyone, before you all start jumping up and down, but it must be seen in its full context. I will also concede that many are displayed by ex military/display pilots, but there must, surely be some underlying reason for the mishaps??
The BBMF record is pretty exemplory, and may I humbly suggest that the reasons might well include ... currency and proficiency? (Please, that is not meant to be derogatory to anyone else)
As Grob driver points out, disbanding BBMF because there are a few Spitfires flying around now, is certainly not a justifiable reason IMHO and I for one would reject that suggestion.
As for everything coming to Scampton? Now that is a good idea, and would undoubtebly save the MOD some money. There seems little justification to me in having to open Coningsby and Scampton at w/ends when you could operate all assets from Scampton??
What about it Airships???
For Gods sake, lets stop all this suggestion about getting rid of BBMF. Look at the Vulcan, did we not all learn from that little fiasco?? If nothing else, we owe it to all those aviators who have gone before us to keep this (little) bit of RAF history intact and secure for as long as possible, and in the safe hands of the RAF.
Rant over, time for lie down and a large Grouse I think!
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
I must disagree with you on this.
The aircraft of the BBMF belong to the nation, and that is where they should stay, well out of the reach of rich businessmen.
I would not wish to get into the rights and wrongs of civilians displaying warbirds, however if you take a long hard look at recent (tragic) airshows over the last couple of years or so, I regret to say that the statistics for 'civilian-handled' warbirds is NOT good.
I am in no way pointing the finger at anyone, before you all start jumping up and down, but it must be seen in its full context. I will also concede that many are displayed by ex military/display pilots, but there must, surely be some underlying reason for the mishaps??
The BBMF record is pretty exemplory, and may I humbly suggest that the reasons might well include ... currency and proficiency? (Please, that is not meant to be derogatory to anyone else)
As Grob driver points out, disbanding BBMF because there are a few Spitfires flying around now, is certainly not a justifiable reason IMHO and I for one would reject that suggestion.
As for everything coming to Scampton? Now that is a good idea, and would undoubtebly save the MOD some money. There seems little justification to me in having to open Coningsby and Scampton at w/ends when you could operate all assets from Scampton??
What about it Airships???
For Gods sake, lets stop all this suggestion about getting rid of BBMF. Look at the Vulcan, did we not all learn from that little fiasco?? If nothing else, we owe it to all those aviators who have gone before us to keep this (little) bit of RAF history intact and secure for as long as possible, and in the safe hands of the RAF.
Rant over, time for lie down and a large Grouse I think!
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
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I don't recall anyone saying that BBMF should be disbanded. But with all the defence cuts in the offing I think it might be a matter of priorities. Personally, I wouldn't want to see the BBMF disbanded.
Swinging Monkey.
There are not many civilian pilots of warbirds who are not ex military. Yes, I know there are a few - and they fly to a very high standard. They have to go through exactly the same display evaluation as ex military guys who fly civ owned warbirds.
Take a close look at the "recent (tagic) airshows". I think you will find that the majority of the pilots involved were military or ex military. As always there are exceptions to the rule.
On the UK airshow scene the majority of historic military aircraft are civilian owned, and have been for many years. If the BBMF folded tomorrow there would be a 20 minute gap in a 6 hour airshow. If all the civvies went away you would have a 20 minute airshow - 40 minutes if the Reds pitched up.
Reichman
Swinging Monkey.
There are not many civilian pilots of warbirds who are not ex military. Yes, I know there are a few - and they fly to a very high standard. They have to go through exactly the same display evaluation as ex military guys who fly civ owned warbirds.
Take a close look at the "recent (tagic) airshows". I think you will find that the majority of the pilots involved were military or ex military. As always there are exceptions to the rule.
On the UK airshow scene the majority of historic military aircraft are civilian owned, and have been for many years. If the BBMF folded tomorrow there would be a 20 minute gap in a 6 hour airshow. If all the civvies went away you would have a 20 minute airshow - 40 minutes if the Reds pitched up.
Reichman
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Reichman… This isn’t meant to be a personal attack on you but…….,
Wow, I can’t believe you just said that! Are you really shallow enough to think that all the BBMF are good for is a 20min-display slot in a 6 hour show? If all you see in those magnificent aircraft is 20mins of flying, then it’s sad state of affairs! I forget the exact figures but bomber command alone lost something in the region of 60,000 men in WWII. The BBMF serves as a living tribute to those men, not to mention the thousands of others who gave their lives. They gave far more than you and I have ever given. And all you see is 20 mins of flying!
So, we pass the BBMF on to civvy hands… Who gets it?… The highest bidder? It’s a national treasure, and for that reason alone it must remain in national hands.
At the end of the day, operating the BBMF is small fry in comparison to the costs and budgets of the MOD… It’s certainly no good reason to stop operating it.
Wow, I can’t believe you just said that! Are you really shallow enough to think that all the BBMF are good for is a 20min-display slot in a 6 hour show? If all you see in those magnificent aircraft is 20mins of flying, then it’s sad state of affairs! I forget the exact figures but bomber command alone lost something in the region of 60,000 men in WWII. The BBMF serves as a living tribute to those men, not to mention the thousands of others who gave their lives. They gave far more than you and I have ever given. And all you see is 20 mins of flying!
So, we pass the BBMF on to civvy hands… Who gets it?… The highest bidder? It’s a national treasure, and for that reason alone it must remain in national hands.
At the end of the day, operating the BBMF is small fry in comparison to the costs and budgets of the MOD… It’s certainly no good reason to stop operating it.
Red On, Green On
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Perhaps those on this thread with strong (and positive) views on BBMF would like to contribute to my BBMF fantasy aircraft acquisition thread here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=133721
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Reichman,
Words (almost) fail me! Did you read any of what I said in my post before you shot off??
I am well aware that the VAST majority of civilian warbird display pilots are ex military (read para 3 of my post) but so what? The fact remains that BBMF undertake 100's of displays each year, with virtually zero mishaps. Civilian piloted warbirds fly much fewer displays and yet, tragically appear to have MORE mishaps. Why is that do you think? I don't proclain to factually know the reasons, but there must be one, and I simply offered two possible reasons why.
Now if I'm wrong, then I'll gladly take a hit, but unless you come up with something sensible to contradict me, and explain the reasons for the 'not so good' record than I would suggest you keep an open mind on the subject.
You also wrote: .....'I think you will find that the majority of the pilots involved were military or ex military'......
yep, can't argue with that - if all your eggs are chickens eggs, chances are they'll hatch into chickens!
And finally, your most outstanding comment to date was....
'If the BBMF folded tomorrow there would be a 20 minute gap in a 6 hour airshow. If all the civvies went away you would have a 20 minute airshow - 40 minutes if the Reds pitched up'
You patently don't get out to go to many airshows then Sir do you!!
I went to Duxford last weekend for what was primarily a 'civilain' flying show. Although we had a great day, I have to say that many people were pretty disgusted at the total lack of flying, especially from the civilian world.
But still, the BBMF were there
So was a Nimrod
oh, and a Harrier
and a Jaguar as well
plus a Hawk
and a Tornado
and also two Tucanos
just a few more than the civvies (oops, hush my mouth!)
'nuf said.
Grob, thank goodness there are still some people out there with your views. As you so rightly point out, bomber command alone lost more than 60,000 aircrew, not to mention fighter command, coastal command, transport command et al.
Reichman, as a fellow aviator you disapoint me. Comments like yours are what instills some little pen-pushing civil servant in Whitehall to come up with these crazy suggestions to ministers etc., that so often end up happeneing. Please refrain forthwith. Thank you.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
Words (almost) fail me! Did you read any of what I said in my post before you shot off??
I am well aware that the VAST majority of civilian warbird display pilots are ex military (read para 3 of my post) but so what? The fact remains that BBMF undertake 100's of displays each year, with virtually zero mishaps. Civilian piloted warbirds fly much fewer displays and yet, tragically appear to have MORE mishaps. Why is that do you think? I don't proclain to factually know the reasons, but there must be one, and I simply offered two possible reasons why.
Now if I'm wrong, then I'll gladly take a hit, but unless you come up with something sensible to contradict me, and explain the reasons for the 'not so good' record than I would suggest you keep an open mind on the subject.
You also wrote: .....'I think you will find that the majority of the pilots involved were military or ex military'......
yep, can't argue with that - if all your eggs are chickens eggs, chances are they'll hatch into chickens!
And finally, your most outstanding comment to date was....
'If the BBMF folded tomorrow there would be a 20 minute gap in a 6 hour airshow. If all the civvies went away you would have a 20 minute airshow - 40 minutes if the Reds pitched up'
You patently don't get out to go to many airshows then Sir do you!!
I went to Duxford last weekend for what was primarily a 'civilain' flying show. Although we had a great day, I have to say that many people were pretty disgusted at the total lack of flying, especially from the civilian world.
But still, the BBMF were there
So was a Nimrod
oh, and a Harrier
and a Jaguar as well
plus a Hawk
and a Tornado
and also two Tucanos
just a few more than the civvies (oops, hush my mouth!)
'nuf said.
Grob, thank goodness there are still some people out there with your views. As you so rightly point out, bomber command alone lost more than 60,000 aircrew, not to mention fighter command, coastal command, transport command et al.
Reichman, as a fellow aviator you disapoint me. Comments like yours are what instills some little pen-pushing civil servant in Whitehall to come up with these crazy suggestions to ministers etc., that so often end up happeneing. Please refrain forthwith. Thank you.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
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Must agree with Swinging Monkey's point about civil servants taking up suggestions that could jeopardise the future of BBMF - careless talk costs dearly and that is why I jumped to defend BBMF in the face of uninformed criticism and careless suggestions.
On this forum, of all forums, I never expected to see posts like Proone's and Reichman's. Do either have a vested interest in privatisation of BBMF?
On this forum, of all forums, I never expected to see posts like Proone's and Reichman's. Do either have a vested interest in privatisation of BBMF?
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I've been directed to this forum by somebody I work with, to correct the speculation and incorrect assumptions that are being bandied about on this thread.
Firstly, the pilot did NOT have an indication problem with his undercarriage.
Secondly, it is impossible to land, stop on a sixpence, jump out, put control locks in ( not that there are any) and carry on taxiing.
Thirdly, the leg collapsed on landing.
Now I know I wasn't there, but I have it on video and have spoken with the pilot.
How do I know all this?????
BECAUSE I WORK ON THIS AIRCRAFT!
By all means have a discussion about the causes of an incident, but they should be based on fact and not hearsay.
Firstly, the pilot did NOT have an indication problem with his undercarriage.
Secondly, it is impossible to land, stop on a sixpence, jump out, put control locks in ( not that there are any) and carry on taxiing.
Thirdly, the leg collapsed on landing.
Now I know I wasn't there, but I have it on video and have spoken with the pilot.
How do I know all this?????
BECAUSE I WORK ON THIS AIRCRAFT!
By all means have a discussion about the causes of an incident, but they should be based on fact and not hearsay.
The Swinging Ape type being,
These machines do not belong to the nation, they belong to the RAF, a part of the MoD, both of whom have a pretty disreputable past when it comes to preserving historic aircraft. (Beverley, Canberra B(I)8, Victor 1, Vulcan 1, I could go on and on…….)
Scampton is going to be rather full in the not too distant future and I doubt if there will be any surplus space for the BBMF to inhabit.
Grob driver,
To the average punter the demise of the BBMF WOULD only result in a 20 minute gap in a 4 to 6 hour display programme, there are numerous Spitfire, Hurricane display routines and they are increasing by the year.
How is a display by a Spitfire or Hurricane owned and flown by the BBMF somehow more respectful to the 55k who lost their lives in WW2 than a civilian owned example? 99% of the watching audience are entirely and blissfully ignorant as to who actually owns the aircraft.
Now the Lancaster is a different matter, it is unique in Europe and WOULD be missed, though I still don’t see why it can’t be managed ala RNHF as far as funding and resources go.
These machines do not belong to the nation, they belong to the RAF, a part of the MoD, both of whom have a pretty disreputable past when it comes to preserving historic aircraft. (Beverley, Canberra B(I)8, Victor 1, Vulcan 1, I could go on and on…….)
Scampton is going to be rather full in the not too distant future and I doubt if there will be any surplus space for the BBMF to inhabit.
Grob driver,
To the average punter the demise of the BBMF WOULD only result in a 20 minute gap in a 4 to 6 hour display programme, there are numerous Spitfire, Hurricane display routines and they are increasing by the year.
How is a display by a Spitfire or Hurricane owned and flown by the BBMF somehow more respectful to the 55k who lost their lives in WW2 than a civilian owned example? 99% of the watching audience are entirely and blissfully ignorant as to who actually owns the aircraft.
Now the Lancaster is a different matter, it is unique in Europe and WOULD be missed, though I still don’t see why it can’t be managed ala RNHF as far as funding and resources go.
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Paulb
Interesting that the aircraft undercarriage collapsed on landing yet it taxied back in line with the parked aircraft (although is didn’t quite make it!), facing the opposite direction to the active runway (that being 24). Are you saying the aircraft taxied to it ‘resting’ position with the collapsed undercarriage?
Maybe you can help / comment on the proposals that U/C locks (not control lock as you state) could be put in an aircraft that landed with a known undercarriage problem. Is that an unreasonable expectation and if so, can I ask why? You say in your post that it’s “impossible”… I’m not saying jump out, put the locks in and carry on. I’m saying jump out, and leave the aircraft where it is until such time that it can be secured. If that ‘blacks’ the runway, then so be it… Welcome to the world for flying! If the aircraft has a known problem, then what about using an airbag to support the aircraft? Again, is that feasible, or do you simply have to continue taxing and hope the U/C doesn’t give way?
Finally, as someone who obviously works with the BBMF… Any thoughts on these radical plans to privatise you all?!!!!!!!!!!
Pr00n... the clue is in the name.... The Battle of Britain MEMORIAL Flight. As for not beinging to the nation, but belonging to the RAF... Just in case you didn't realise, the RAF in a national force!!! They therefore DO belong to the nation!
Interesting that the aircraft undercarriage collapsed on landing yet it taxied back in line with the parked aircraft (although is didn’t quite make it!), facing the opposite direction to the active runway (that being 24). Are you saying the aircraft taxied to it ‘resting’ position with the collapsed undercarriage?
Maybe you can help / comment on the proposals that U/C locks (not control lock as you state) could be put in an aircraft that landed with a known undercarriage problem. Is that an unreasonable expectation and if so, can I ask why? You say in your post that it’s “impossible”… I’m not saying jump out, put the locks in and carry on. I’m saying jump out, and leave the aircraft where it is until such time that it can be secured. If that ‘blacks’ the runway, then so be it… Welcome to the world for flying! If the aircraft has a known problem, then what about using an airbag to support the aircraft? Again, is that feasible, or do you simply have to continue taxing and hope the U/C doesn’t give way?
Finally, as someone who obviously works with the BBMF… Any thoughts on these radical plans to privatise you all?!!!!!!!!!!
Pr00n... the clue is in the name.... The Battle of Britain MEMORIAL Flight. As for not beinging to the nation, but belonging to the RAF... Just in case you didn't realise, the RAF in a national force!!! They therefore DO belong to the nation!
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Grob Driver
You are missing the point as it touched down the leg collasped
he didn't carry on taxing that's where he ended up!!! If it had been flying legends he would have hit whatever was parked there.
As I said the Hurricane does not have u/c locks
Finally there are no plans to privatise BBMF
You are missing the point as it touched down the leg collasped
he didn't carry on taxing that's where he ended up!!! If it had been flying legends he would have hit whatever was parked there.
As I said the Hurricane does not have u/c locks
Finally there are no plans to privatise BBMF
There is an easier way to save money. Instead of opening Conningsby and Scampton at weekends during the airshow season, just open Conningsby.
There is no real need for the Red Arrows, the RAF has a surplus of Pilots, and has apparently severley pruned the intake of pilots.
The only real use of the reds is as advertising for BAeS, if BAeS really do need the Reds to sell the Hawks, then maybe it would make sense to the bean counters to privatise the Reds and let BAeS run them. That way, BAeS can move them to their own runways and stump up for the pilots wages. No matter who runs them, even if the pay is cr@p, there will still be a glut of people wanting to walk into the bar and say 'Hi I'm Red One' etc.
Perhaps the only way to keep the BBMF fully supported by the MOD beancounters, is to press the fact that after the Tonka, the Spitfire is our second largest quantity of fighters in the RAF. (probably a darned sight more effective as well!), and that when we get Gulf War 3, the American Patriot batteries should not pose too much of a threat to the Spit.
Lets hope the Hurricane is back to full health soon.
There is no real need for the Red Arrows, the RAF has a surplus of Pilots, and has apparently severley pruned the intake of pilots.
The only real use of the reds is as advertising for BAeS, if BAeS really do need the Reds to sell the Hawks, then maybe it would make sense to the bean counters to privatise the Reds and let BAeS run them. That way, BAeS can move them to their own runways and stump up for the pilots wages. No matter who runs them, even if the pay is cr@p, there will still be a glut of people wanting to walk into the bar and say 'Hi I'm Red One' etc.
Perhaps the only way to keep the BBMF fully supported by the MOD beancounters, is to press the fact that after the Tonka, the Spitfire is our second largest quantity of fighters in the RAF. (probably a darned sight more effective as well!), and that when we get Gulf War 3, the American Patriot batteries should not pose too much of a threat to the Spit.
Lets hope the Hurricane is back to full health soon.
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Paulb,
I genuinely bow down to your superior knowledge here and I fully trust what you say.
I was basing my comments on what I remember seeing on the day, and on the photo in the link posted by ‘wub’, where the aircraft appears to be well clear of the runway.
However, I am interested to know… Under different circumstances, in the event of an undercarriage failure on a Hurricane, where the aircraft is still standing, what would be the normal procedure? I’ve suggested the use of U/C locks or an air bag. Two individuals have dismissed that idea as ‘unsuitable’ (I forget the exact words)… We were all speculating on hearsay evidence… you seem to know the facts. Is my idea as ridiculous as some have stated? I now appreciate the U/C locks are not available… how about using an airbag? What would be the normal procedure in this case?
On the subject on privatising the BBMF… It was a question regarding your thoughts on some people views on you guys being nothing more than 20 mins in a display slot. You do an outstanding job (This isn’t meant to be a brown nose session!). I’ve been fortunate enough to fly in your Dac, and have had the privilege of sitting in your spitfires and the Lancaster. As some who will almost certainly never fly such a machine, that is a real honour. I just think it’s a shame that the likes of pr00n and Reichman don’t appreciate it for what (I think) it’s worth.
I’m just glad the pilot is ok… Any word on when we’ll see 363 in the sky again?
Fly safe!
Grob Driver
I genuinely bow down to your superior knowledge here and I fully trust what you say.
I was basing my comments on what I remember seeing on the day, and on the photo in the link posted by ‘wub’, where the aircraft appears to be well clear of the runway.
However, I am interested to know… Under different circumstances, in the event of an undercarriage failure on a Hurricane, where the aircraft is still standing, what would be the normal procedure? I’ve suggested the use of U/C locks or an air bag. Two individuals have dismissed that idea as ‘unsuitable’ (I forget the exact words)… We were all speculating on hearsay evidence… you seem to know the facts. Is my idea as ridiculous as some have stated? I now appreciate the U/C locks are not available… how about using an airbag? What would be the normal procedure in this case?
On the subject on privatising the BBMF… It was a question regarding your thoughts on some people views on you guys being nothing more than 20 mins in a display slot. You do an outstanding job (This isn’t meant to be a brown nose session!). I’ve been fortunate enough to fly in your Dac, and have had the privilege of sitting in your spitfires and the Lancaster. As some who will almost certainly never fly such a machine, that is a real honour. I just think it’s a shame that the likes of pr00n and Reichman don’t appreciate it for what (I think) it’s worth.
I’m just glad the pilot is ok… Any word on when we’ll see 363 in the sky again?
Fly safe!
Grob Driver
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ZH 875 has a point:
The Mk19 Spits also have a higher service ceiling, unless you count the Tonka in full burner and give it unlimited fuel.
However, after fitting it with AMRAAM, the comparison might not bear discussing!
Perhaps the only way to keep the BBMF fully supported by the MOD beancounters, is to press the fact that after the Tonka, the Spitfire is our second largest quantity of fighters in the RAF. (probably a darned sight more effective as well!),
However, after fitting it with AMRAAM, the comparison might not bear discussing!
BBMF funding
If BBMF's funding ever becomes an issue, lets get the hell away from the Gulf, and divert the Telic funding to BBMF. Would certainly get the vote of a few people I know.
And give them a Mossie too!
Paulb, if you need a hand just shout. No expenses required.
And give them a Mossie too!
Paulb, if you need a hand just shout. No expenses required.