Redundancy payout to be announced in July?
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Heard about one of the options being considered last night. When they close the Jags down it will leave about 60 pilots that can't be put back in the system so they will be ofered the chance of re-roling to one of the branches that is short of manpower - like Admin.
The fact that I heard it in the pub may take away some of the credence to this story!
The fact that I heard it in the pub may take away some of the credence to this story!
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SBW, D4R
Just reading your discussion about whos rules to use to calculate redundancy payouts. Don't know if you guys are aware but if (and its a very big if) there are any redundancies then one would hope the RAF would use the QRs for the Royal Air Farce.
In said QRs there are very clear rates of payment for redundancy. Its a reducing scale, but if you still have 5 years to serve the payout is 1 1/2 years salery (plus any IPP already due of course).
Unfortunatly I cannot find any QRs to quote the number from but believe me its there. Will supply the reference and post a copy of it in due course if anyone is interested.
You aint seen me right.
Just found it.
Chapter 44
QR3170-3175
Here is an extract, the airmens rates are essesentially the same.
REDUNDANCY - COMPENSATION TERMS
SECTION 1 - GENERAL CONDITIONS
3170. Sponsor:SPP(Pens)
(1) Compensation for early retirement or redundancy will be payable in the circumstances specified in para 3170A.
(2) Compensation will take the form of a tax free lump sum payment known as a Special Capital Payment. The amount of the Special Capital Payment is to be calculated in accordance with paragraphs 3171 to 3174.
(3) Qualifying Service means full pay service from age 18. Reckonable Service means full pay service from age 18 for servicemen and age 21 for officers, whilst a member of the AFPS. Additionally, for the purposes of calculating the rate of pension and terminal grant, notional years of service which have been bought under the Purchase of Added Years Scheme and actual service brought into the AFPS by way of a Transfer Value may be included as reckonable, but not qualifying. Contracted out service means full pay service during which contracted out rates of National Insurance contributions were paid.
3170A
(1) An officer of the rank of Air Commodore or above may be awarded a special capital payment if on or after 18 July 2001 he is called upon to retire under paragraph 2905(4) before his normal retirement date. For these purposes, a person\'s normal retirement date is the date to which he was conditioned to serve immediately before he was called upon to retire under paragraph 2905(4).
(2) Without prejudice to clause (1), compensation will be payable in the form of a special capital payment where an officer or serviceman is made redundant under a redundancy programme declared by the Defence Council. Instructions will be issued as and when necessary on the scope of the redundancy programme, the selection procedures and the extent to which application may be made for premature release on redundancy terms.
SECTION 2 - OFFICERS SERVING ON PERMANENT COMMISSIONS
3171. Special Capital Payments. Sponsor:SPP(Pens)
(1) Subject to paragraph 3171A, the amount of the special capital payment will be equivalent to a number of months pay as follows:
(a) Officers with at least 13 years qualifying service:
Uncompleted portion of career Special capital payment (Note 1)
Years to normal retiring age / Months pay
5 or more / 18
4 / 15
3 / 11
2 / 7
1 / 3
Of course there are special arrangements for the 1150 Air Officers that we currently have in the RAF.
You aint seen me right
Just reading your discussion about whos rules to use to calculate redundancy payouts. Don't know if you guys are aware but if (and its a very big if) there are any redundancies then one would hope the RAF would use the QRs for the Royal Air Farce.
In said QRs there are very clear rates of payment for redundancy. Its a reducing scale, but if you still have 5 years to serve the payout is 1 1/2 years salery (plus any IPP already due of course).
Unfortunatly I cannot find any QRs to quote the number from but believe me its there. Will supply the reference and post a copy of it in due course if anyone is interested.
You aint seen me right.
Just found it.
Chapter 44
QR3170-3175
Here is an extract, the airmens rates are essesentially the same.
REDUNDANCY - COMPENSATION TERMS
SECTION 1 - GENERAL CONDITIONS
3170. Sponsor:SPP(Pens)
(1) Compensation for early retirement or redundancy will be payable in the circumstances specified in para 3170A.
(2) Compensation will take the form of a tax free lump sum payment known as a Special Capital Payment. The amount of the Special Capital Payment is to be calculated in accordance with paragraphs 3171 to 3174.
(3) Qualifying Service means full pay service from age 18. Reckonable Service means full pay service from age 18 for servicemen and age 21 for officers, whilst a member of the AFPS. Additionally, for the purposes of calculating the rate of pension and terminal grant, notional years of service which have been bought under the Purchase of Added Years Scheme and actual service brought into the AFPS by way of a Transfer Value may be included as reckonable, but not qualifying. Contracted out service means full pay service during which contracted out rates of National Insurance contributions were paid.
3170A
(1) An officer of the rank of Air Commodore or above may be awarded a special capital payment if on or after 18 July 2001 he is called upon to retire under paragraph 2905(4) before his normal retirement date. For these purposes, a person\'s normal retirement date is the date to which he was conditioned to serve immediately before he was called upon to retire under paragraph 2905(4).
(2) Without prejudice to clause (1), compensation will be payable in the form of a special capital payment where an officer or serviceman is made redundant under a redundancy programme declared by the Defence Council. Instructions will be issued as and when necessary on the scope of the redundancy programme, the selection procedures and the extent to which application may be made for premature release on redundancy terms.
SECTION 2 - OFFICERS SERVING ON PERMANENT COMMISSIONS
3171. Special Capital Payments. Sponsor:SPP(Pens)
(1) Subject to paragraph 3171A, the amount of the special capital payment will be equivalent to a number of months pay as follows:
(a) Officers with at least 13 years qualifying service:
Uncompleted portion of career Special capital payment (Note 1)
Years to normal retiring age / Months pay
5 or more / 18
4 / 15
3 / 11
2 / 7
1 / 3
Of course there are special arrangements for the 1150 Air Officers that we currently have in the RAF.
You aint seen me right
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Aahhh, but try thinking like a treasury bod…..
1. Make 33 year old aircrew redundant:
Cost = 18 months pay at £35k pa = £52,500
Saving = £35k for 5 years (until IPP) = £175,000
Net saving = £122,500
2. Make 40 year old PAS aircrew redundant:
Cost = 18 months pay at £50k pa = £75,000
Saving = £50k for 15 years (ignoring pay increases) = £750,000
Net saving = £675,000
Now which to choose …. Oh bu@@er!
Bottom line is - it's the skills that you have (or don't) that will decide how useful (or not) you are.
D4R
1. Make 33 year old aircrew redundant:
Cost = 18 months pay at £35k pa = £52,500
Saving = £35k for 5 years (until IPP) = £175,000
Net saving = £122,500
2. Make 40 year old PAS aircrew redundant:
Cost = 18 months pay at £50k pa = £75,000
Saving = £50k for 15 years (ignoring pay increases) = £750,000
Net saving = £675,000
Now which to choose …. Oh bu@@er!
Bottom line is - it's the skills that you have (or don't) that will decide how useful (or not) you are.
D4R
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Now Now chaps, here we are talking about long term savings over 15 years when we can't even carry budget surplus over from one year to the next!
Don't forget that making post age 38 redundant incurs immediate pension and gratuity on top of the settlement - might make the short term costs prohibitive. On the other hand, 33 year old sprog gets nowt until he's 55.
Bu99er - indeed, with a size 12 cricket bat!
Don't forget that making post age 38 redundant incurs immediate pension and gratuity on top of the settlement - might make the short term costs prohibitive. On the other hand, 33 year old sprog gets nowt until he's 55.
Bu99er - indeed, with a size 12 cricket bat!
Vage, not quite..those 33 yr old sprogs are entitled to the redundancy + pension..someone like moi would get 7/8ths of my pension at age 35, having done 14 years of my 'time' post 21.
HM
HM
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As a member of several of the OR Redundancy Boards last time round, you may be interested to know that ACRs were a key factor in determining who went.
Assuming aircrew boards will work in similar fashion this time round, I suggest the following:
1. Volunteers will go first. If there are 50 places and 100 volunteers, then there will be no involuntary redundancies.
2. Next, the board will first look for specialists with rare/important qualifications that make them more valuable. We were given a list of qualifications to look for, and the pile was divided accordingly. Some strange things came out of this ... the quals we looked for were directed by PMA; the Regiment, for example, wanted to retain Rapier FSB instructors because most of them had converted to FSC ... there were only a few FSC instructors left, so FSBs were retained because of the shortage (even though FSB was going out of service).
3. Next, the non-specialists will be placed in strict order of ability based on their last 4 ACRs. In essence, we conducted a promotions board, except that, on completion, the list was reversed, so that the 'worst' candidates would be the first to go!
4. Finally, we went through both piles to examine personal circumstances, based mainly on letters of application, occasionally with support from commanders, and referring back to ACRs where appropriate. Special cases (including some with special quals) were then slotted into the pile according to their merits.
At the end of the day, I felt the process was extremely fair but mainly done to the best interests of the Service. The way personal circumstances were taken into account was very welcome.
The other thing to remember of course, is that when your mate gets it and you don't, it's probably because the Service thinks less of you than him/her, so crack on with appropriate banter!!
Assuming aircrew boards will work in similar fashion this time round, I suggest the following:
1. Volunteers will go first. If there are 50 places and 100 volunteers, then there will be no involuntary redundancies.
2. Next, the board will first look for specialists with rare/important qualifications that make them more valuable. We were given a list of qualifications to look for, and the pile was divided accordingly. Some strange things came out of this ... the quals we looked for were directed by PMA; the Regiment, for example, wanted to retain Rapier FSB instructors because most of them had converted to FSC ... there were only a few FSC instructors left, so FSBs were retained because of the shortage (even though FSB was going out of service).
3. Next, the non-specialists will be placed in strict order of ability based on their last 4 ACRs. In essence, we conducted a promotions board, except that, on completion, the list was reversed, so that the 'worst' candidates would be the first to go!
4. Finally, we went through both piles to examine personal circumstances, based mainly on letters of application, occasionally with support from commanders, and referring back to ACRs where appropriate. Special cases (including some with special quals) were then slotted into the pile according to their merits.
At the end of the day, I felt the process was extremely fair but mainly done to the best interests of the Service. The way personal circumstances were taken into account was very welcome.
The other thing to remember of course, is that when your mate gets it and you don't, it's probably because the Service thinks less of you than him/her, so crack on with appropriate banter!!
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 24th Oct 2004 at 12:40.
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Vage Rot
"Don't forget that making post age 38 redundant incurs immediate pension and gratuity on top of the settlement - might make the short term costs prohibitive. On the other hand, 33 year old sprog gets nowt until he's 55."
Immediate pension I can understand (although I'm not sure how PAS affects this). However, out of interest where did you get the gratuity bit from?
Also I'm not trying to point fingers at different ages, it's just that in previous redundancy pushes it has been the more senior of us that have been targeted. This time I can see that the axe could also fall on the mid-30's bulge (in Binnsworth speak) as well. As I said in my last post, IMHO it will be what you can offer the Service in terms of useable skills that will determine how likely a target you are rather than just seniority.
STH
Was writing this post at the same time as yours, and agree your comments completely. Although I seem to remember last time that it felt guiling to see some of the worst paid large amounts of money to leave, whilst those who remained had to work even harder.
D4R
"Don't forget that making post age 38 redundant incurs immediate pension and gratuity on top of the settlement - might make the short term costs prohibitive. On the other hand, 33 year old sprog gets nowt until he's 55."
Immediate pension I can understand (although I'm not sure how PAS affects this). However, out of interest where did you get the gratuity bit from?
Also I'm not trying to point fingers at different ages, it's just that in previous redundancy pushes it has been the more senior of us that have been targeted. This time I can see that the axe could also fall on the mid-30's bulge (in Binnsworth speak) as well. As I said in my last post, IMHO it will be what you can offer the Service in terms of useable skills that will determine how likely a target you are rather than just seniority.
STH
Was writing this post at the same time as yours, and agree your comments completely. Although I seem to remember last time that it felt guiling to see some of the worst paid large amounts of money to leave, whilst those who remained had to work even harder.
D4R
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D4R
Whichever of us remain will have to work even harder ... whoever goes!
Also, I want to reiterate the point that I was dealing with other ranks, and not aircrew. Although the same principles should apply, I think it is probably true to say that the range of remuneration is much greater within a particular aircrew specialisation than within a trade group. This makes use of cost an attractive discriminator from a bean counter perspective.
Also, the comments made by previous posters do not take into account things like BSA. As this is worth as much as £36,180 PA to someone with 3 teenagers, you have to wonder whether such things become a factor if the bean counters get involved.
That said, I suspect the methods used to select people for redundancy may well be laid down in regs.
Ho hum!
STH
Whichever of us remain will have to work even harder ... whoever goes!
Also, I want to reiterate the point that I was dealing with other ranks, and not aircrew. Although the same principles should apply, I think it is probably true to say that the range of remuneration is much greater within a particular aircrew specialisation than within a trade group. This makes use of cost an attractive discriminator from a bean counter perspective.
Also, the comments made by previous posters do not take into account things like BSA. As this is worth as much as £36,180 PA to someone with 3 teenagers, you have to wonder whether such things become a factor if the bean counters get involved.
That said, I suspect the methods used to select people for redundancy may well be laid down in regs.
Ho hum!
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 4th Jun 2004 at 22:36.
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D4R
O's qualify for immediate pension and gratuity (3 x Pension) at the 16/38 point if on a Permanent Commission. Hence they have already qualified fo pension and gratuity become payable on discharge.
Good to see STH post on how it's done but as you say, those left just have to work harder. That said - we carry some people anyway!
O's qualify for immediate pension and gratuity (3 x Pension) at the 16/38 point if on a Permanent Commission. Hence they have already qualified fo pension and gratuity become payable on discharge.
Good to see STH post on how it's done but as you say, those left just have to work harder. That said - we carry some people anyway!
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Bearing in mind how thin on the ground we are I can't see NCA featuring in this equation
...........which is feckin sad as with the right package most of us would be off tomorrow
...........apart from the malingering long term sick feckers who are causing no end of heartache at the coal face 
who are bound to stay as it's EASY MONEY!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
...........which is feckin sad as with the right package most of us would be off tomorrow...........apart from the malingering long term sick feckers who are causing no end of heartache at the coal face who are bound to stay as it's EASY MONEY!!all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 5th Jun 2004 at 07:41.
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Chaps,
Looking for a little advice here. Just chopped from Linton, staring down the barrel of re-selection. What do you think the chances are of getting a pat on the back followed by a boot up the ar$e?
Cynicism, Rumour and pure conjecture more than welcome!
Thanks
Looking for a little advice here. Just chopped from Linton, staring down the barrel of re-selection. What do you think the chances are of getting a pat on the back followed by a boot up the ar$e?
Cynicism, Rumour and pure conjecture more than welcome!
Thanks
High
The RAF doesn't owe anyone a living, and never has! In previous times of pilot surplus some guys who have been chopped off fast jet OCUs have become 'Mr' quite quickly afterwards. The RAF has been wasting talent (and taxpayers money) for years, I see no reason why it should change now!
The RAF doesn't owe anyone a living, and never has! In previous times of pilot surplus some guys who have been chopped off fast jet OCUs have become 'Mr' quite quickly afterwards. The RAF has been wasting talent (and taxpayers money) for years, I see no reason why it should change now!
Last edited by Biggus; 13th Jun 2004 at 07:40.