Mail On Sunday Apache story
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"British prison abuse and torture in NI" - a lot of that is republican propaganda and lies - they are very good at that. They were'nt tortured or abused, Bobby Sands et al., starved themselves.
In fact the British military in N.Ireland were so damned constrained by rules and regulations set in place to prevent abuse etc.. that it constrained their operational effectiveness.
Pity the IRA did'nt follow the same rules. They claimed to be in a war, I did'nt see them wearing a uniform or adhering to the geneva convention. Bob Nairac - case example. The PIRA are a funny bunch. They murder 5 british soldiers and as soon as one of them gets it they claim torture and abuse.
Take a look at the Loughgall incident.
In fact the British military in N.Ireland were so damned constrained by rules and regulations set in place to prevent abuse etc.. that it constrained their operational effectiveness.
Pity the IRA did'nt follow the same rules. They claimed to be in a war, I did'nt see them wearing a uniform or adhering to the geneva convention. Bob Nairac - case example. The PIRA are a funny bunch. They murder 5 british soldiers and as soon as one of them gets it they claim torture and abuse.
Take a look at the Loughgall incident.
No abuse in NI, now thats laughable, predictable and yet myopic all at the same time. Yup, the IRA were/still are thugs, doesn't relieve your crowd though does it?
Beagle
Its not whether they have your picture, your DNA or your favorite ice cream treat on it. It the purpose and statement behind its issuance. Your smart enough to know that the argument lies not with what you will get with it, its what you will lose with it. My pilot and instructor certs doesn't have my picture on it, does yours? Are you also so brainwashed to think nothing happened in H block?
Beagle
Its not whether they have your picture, your DNA or your favorite ice cream treat on it. It the purpose and statement behind its issuance. Your smart enough to know that the argument lies not with what you will get with it, its what you will lose with it. My pilot and instructor certs doesn't have my picture on it, does yours? Are you also so brainwashed to think nothing happened in H block?
Last edited by West Coast; 16th May 2004 at 21:49.
Sorry, West Coast, but I have no direct knowledge of what went on in the H-blocks - except that 'Internment without trial' caused sufficient resentment amongst the population for many to rally to the IRA cause.....
There probably were a few sadists acting very improperly there, just as there clearly are in Iraq.
One amusing piece of Anglo-American misunderstanding some years ago was that MacDonalds (who, I understand, sell things called 'burgers') were making compulsory IRA deductions from employee pay. This caused howls of anguish - until it was explained that they were for Individual Retirement Accounts, not the Irish Republican Army!
There probably were a few sadists acting very improperly there, just as there clearly are in Iraq.
One amusing piece of Anglo-American misunderstanding some years ago was that MacDonalds (who, I understand, sell things called 'burgers') were making compulsory IRA deductions from employee pay. This caused howls of anguish - until it was explained that they were for Individual Retirement Accounts, not the Irish Republican Army!
Neat tidbit of info. I'm sure to this day someone in the UK is without doubt that McDonalds supported the IRA (the terrorist one, not the crappy retirement fund) and hates the US for it.
You use a curious word, direct. To me that infers first hand knowledge. Do you have direct knowledge of US prisioner abuse? For that matter do you have direct knowledge of UK travelers in the US being detained or is from the mass media?
You use a curious word, direct. To me that infers first hand knowledge. Do you have direct knowledge of US prisioner abuse? For that matter do you have direct knowledge of UK travelers in the US being detained or is from the mass media?
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West Coast me ol' china,
We have two types of "****" in this thread
In "The War Against Terrorism" who the heck knows the score but in "The War Against Twits" I reckon Beag's is way out in front
Irony and Monty Python, classic UK exports are just a couple of things our "Cousins" have never been able to grasp
Go Beag's Go Beag's Go Beag's..........Yeeeeeaaaaah
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
We have two types of "****" in this thread
In "The War Against Terrorism" who the heck knows the score but in "The War Against Twits" I reckon Beag's is way out in front
Irony and Monty Python, classic UK exports are just a couple of things our "Cousins" have never been able to grasp
Go Beag's Go Beag's Go Beag's..........Yeeeeeaaaaah
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Grandpa Aerotart
From watching the various interviews with low ranking US service men and women over the last few years you could be forgiven for believing they are Jerry Springer's audience, or indeed guests, in uniform.
Chuck
Chuck
West Coast, by 'direct', I mean that I have no information to substantiate any allegations of prisoner abuse in the H-blocks; the last time I was in Ireland was 1962! But I wouldn't rule out incorrect behaviour by isolated individuals and would certainly listen to any accurate reports of such.
Yes, the 'MacDonalds supports the IRA' rubbish is probably still believed by many. Although there certainly are certain establishments in the US which allegedly do support Irish republican groups. Once in Boston, we were advised that a certain bar was on such place - and that any collections made for the live band were more likely to end up going to terrorist organisations. So, as one does, we went there, had a few beers, scoffed the free Happy Hour food and then left before the band started!
Detention of travellers to the US? Certainly have talked to folk who've been messed around. One was an airline pilot who delivered a 747 and was then going to fly back on his own airline to the UK. So - one way ticket, pilot bag and no luggage. The security dimwits employed at the airport immediately raised the alarm as he fitted their 'profile'. Rude questioning and an intrusive search later, he was finally allowed to go.......
Several non-US companies who used to arrange winter seminars in Florida have now realised that their guests are unwilling to attend thanks to the heavy-handedness prevalent at airports. So now they use hotels in the Canary Islands instead.
Relatives in the travel industry tell me that people are now turning to places like Dubai insteard of Florida as, having been subjected to US entry procedures once, they're not prepared to tolerate them again.
Yes, the 'MacDonalds supports the IRA' rubbish is probably still believed by many. Although there certainly are certain establishments in the US which allegedly do support Irish republican groups. Once in Boston, we were advised that a certain bar was on such place - and that any collections made for the live band were more likely to end up going to terrorist organisations. So, as one does, we went there, had a few beers, scoffed the free Happy Hour food and then left before the band started!
Detention of travellers to the US? Certainly have talked to folk who've been messed around. One was an airline pilot who delivered a 747 and was then going to fly back on his own airline to the UK. So - one way ticket, pilot bag and no luggage. The security dimwits employed at the airport immediately raised the alarm as he fitted their 'profile'. Rude questioning and an intrusive search later, he was finally allowed to go.......
Several non-US companies who used to arrange winter seminars in Florida have now realised that their guests are unwilling to attend thanks to the heavy-handedness prevalent at airports. So now they use hotels in the Canary Islands instead.
Relatives in the travel industry tell me that people are now turning to places like Dubai insteard of Florida as, having been subjected to US entry procedures once, they're not prepared to tolerate them again.
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West Coast
Several things pi$$ed us off in Ireland. One was the definite, highly succesful American fundraising efforts for the IRA and the supply of American weapons was also a pi$$er.
The failure of American Courts to extradite murderers like Joe Dougherty to the UK (a NATO Ally) under the so called Political Offence Exception to Extradition was one that gripped our $hit in particular.
The other is the perpetual Hollywood myth of the "Troubles" which are just stomach churning when you analyse the slaughter carried out by indiscriminate bombings and cynical attempts to blame the Police when things got out of hand and too many victims were claimed even for the IRA propaganda machine to whitewash. (Enniskillen, Hyde Park Corner, Harrods, Omagh etc etc)
McGuinness and Adams only started to come to heel when the Clinton administration read their bumps for them after the first WTC, McVeigh etc and put them on the hunting licence if any further terror attacks were carried out in the UK.
Several things pi$$ed us off in Ireland. One was the definite, highly succesful American fundraising efforts for the IRA and the supply of American weapons was also a pi$$er.
The failure of American Courts to extradite murderers like Joe Dougherty to the UK (a NATO Ally) under the so called Political Offence Exception to Extradition was one that gripped our $hit in particular.
The other is the perpetual Hollywood myth of the "Troubles" which are just stomach churning when you analyse the slaughter carried out by indiscriminate bombings and cynical attempts to blame the Police when things got out of hand and too many victims were claimed even for the IRA propaganda machine to whitewash. (Enniskillen, Hyde Park Corner, Harrods, Omagh etc etc)
McGuinness and Adams only started to come to heel when the Clinton administration read their bumps for them after the first WTC, McVeigh etc and put them on the hunting licence if any further terror attacks were carried out in the UK.
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Bloody good shooting if you ask me, once he got the range right of course.
When the whole video is watched, not just the cleverly edited quick version, you will see that the weapon was followed to that location. The weapon had an escort of terrorists intent on shooting down a helicopter. For once the terrorist didnt have the element of surprise and the good guys won 3:0.
When the whole video is watched, not just the cleverly edited quick version, you will see that the weapon was followed to that location. The weapon had an escort of terrorists intent on shooting down a helicopter. For once the terrorist didnt have the element of surprise and the good guys won 3:0.
Jeep
Can you post a link to the complete unedited video? Be nice if posters could make a reasoned decision minus some crafty editing designed to skew opinion.
BHR
Negative ghostrider. Just what is it you do to pay the bills?
Pilgrim
I don't make any attempts to glam up the IRA. I see them in the same light as I do any other terrorists. Just the same a measure of a democracy is not how it treats the average citizen, its how it treats its worst. The happenings at H block speak to that concept, just the same as it does with the current scandel.
As to the general tone of your text. Do a little research in to Hamas funding that originates in the UK. Israel in the past had asked the UK govt to crackdown on terrorist fundraising efforts as the UK was the largest overseas source of funding. You mention extradition. I will look up your example if you look up
DR.Robert Kleasen. For 29 years the US sought his extradition for a double murder. He recently passed of natural causes and thus escaped proper justice. I dont know if Usama Bil Laden will be captured. I only hope your guys dont get him as its been said by high officials in the UK that he wont be extradited to the US if the death penalty is a possible outcome.
Beagle
Thanks for the clarification. The article you pasted, do you know anything about it other than having read it? Trying to figure out what your burden of proof is.
Being a commuter out of San Diego I underwent the same as the 747 pilot you mention. Far from the drama queen like sob stories, my experience has been less traumatic. I fit the same profile as he did for the same reasons. Received the same scrutiny, yet came away less scarred. On my way in a few minutes.
Security dimwits...nope no terrorist would ever think of dressing up as a pilot. I am probably treading on thin ice by even saying this much but a number of US airline crews have been surveiled while overseas. And not by local authorities either. Hotel rooms have been broken in to and uniforms and more importantly airline ID stolen. Enough said, this comes from info in the public domain.
As to the tourists picking destinations other than the US, smaller crowds for me when I venture to Disneyland in a few weeks. Been to Honolulu lately? The amount of tourists there has only increased by my man on the street observations.
Can you post a link to the complete unedited video? Be nice if posters could make a reasoned decision minus some crafty editing designed to skew opinion.
BHR
Negative ghostrider. Just what is it you do to pay the bills?
Pilgrim
I don't make any attempts to glam up the IRA. I see them in the same light as I do any other terrorists. Just the same a measure of a democracy is not how it treats the average citizen, its how it treats its worst. The happenings at H block speak to that concept, just the same as it does with the current scandel.
As to the general tone of your text. Do a little research in to Hamas funding that originates in the UK. Israel in the past had asked the UK govt to crackdown on terrorist fundraising efforts as the UK was the largest overseas source of funding. You mention extradition. I will look up your example if you look up
DR.Robert Kleasen. For 29 years the US sought his extradition for a double murder. He recently passed of natural causes and thus escaped proper justice. I dont know if Usama Bil Laden will be captured. I only hope your guys dont get him as its been said by high officials in the UK that he wont be extradited to the US if the death penalty is a possible outcome.
Beagle
Thanks for the clarification. The article you pasted, do you know anything about it other than having read it? Trying to figure out what your burden of proof is.
Being a commuter out of San Diego I underwent the same as the 747 pilot you mention. Far from the drama queen like sob stories, my experience has been less traumatic. I fit the same profile as he did for the same reasons. Received the same scrutiny, yet came away less scarred. On my way in a few minutes.
Security dimwits...nope no terrorist would ever think of dressing up as a pilot. I am probably treading on thin ice by even saying this much but a number of US airline crews have been surveiled while overseas. And not by local authorities either. Hotel rooms have been broken in to and uniforms and more importantly airline ID stolen. Enough said, this comes from info in the public domain.
As to the tourists picking destinations other than the US, smaller crowds for me when I venture to Disneyland in a few weeks. Been to Honolulu lately? The amount of tourists there has only increased by my man on the street observations.
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Looking at the video it looks to me to be a very professionally carried out operation - excellent shooting, 10/10. Little chit chat and clear communication and line of command.
All I can say is - 3 less to worry about.
As far as boggy land goes; having been the victim of ritual abuse and violence in that country for many years I wish I had the right to justice that so many of the republicans have made so much profit out of.
All I can say is - 3 less to worry about.
As far as boggy land goes; having been the victim of ritual abuse and violence in that country for many years I wish I had the right to justice that so many of the republicans have made so much profit out of.
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Well done US army !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Managed to bomb and kill an Iraqi wedding party, killing 40 people!!
The world is so much safer now - thank god for America!!
What would we do without them?
By the way. What does the US stand for in US army?
unbelievably stupid?
Managed to bomb and kill an Iraqi wedding party, killing 40 people!!
The world is so much safer now - thank god for America!!
What would we do without them?
By the way. What does the US stand for in US army?
unbelievably stupid?
This would be the wedding party with the sniper rifles, large calibre weapons, sat gear, millions in dinars and foreign terrorists in attendance, Ok gotcha.
You going to make any more general statements you will have to retract again because they were wrong like last time you got a hold of a key board and you were called on your clueless statements?
Or will you be like the luvvies who condemned the killing of the innocent farmers in the video that generated this thread. Funny to hear them rail against the US. Murderers, oh those poor farmers out doing a touch of night farming in a war zone offed by the horrible Americans. Haven't heard squat since finding out those poor farmers were transporting weapons and were a legit target. The simple minds who condemn minus the basic clues or facts, many are here on the prune. Thankfully they show their hands early on and are easily discounted as nothing other than trolls.
You going to make any more general statements you will have to retract again because they were wrong like last time you got a hold of a key board and you were called on your clueless statements?
Or will you be like the luvvies who condemned the killing of the innocent farmers in the video that generated this thread. Funny to hear them rail against the US. Murderers, oh those poor farmers out doing a touch of night farming in a war zone offed by the horrible Americans. Haven't heard squat since finding out those poor farmers were transporting weapons and were a legit target. The simple minds who condemn minus the basic clues or facts, many are here on the prune. Thankfully they show their hands early on and are easily discounted as nothing other than trolls.
Easy, tiger!
The 'farmers' may well have been a legitimate target. It was the murder of the wounded man which I found unacceptable.
As for the 'wedding party' - my suspicion is that the 'celebrations' were being used in an attempt to smoke screen the terrorist activities you describe. Unsuccessfully!
West Coast - sound like a major coup in recovering all that evidence. Hope that they captured documents and computers as well, leading military intelligence higher up the trail to that $hit Bin Laden and his murderous gang of followers. For they are the ones ultimately responsible for the deaths of those women and children at the 'wedding', not the US.
The 'farmers' may well have been a legitimate target. It was the murder of the wounded man which I found unacceptable.
As for the 'wedding party' - my suspicion is that the 'celebrations' were being used in an attempt to smoke screen the terrorist activities you describe. Unsuccessfully!
West Coast - sound like a major coup in recovering all that evidence. Hope that they captured documents and computers as well, leading military intelligence higher up the trail to that $hit Bin Laden and his murderous gang of followers. For they are the ones ultimately responsible for the deaths of those women and children at the 'wedding', not the US.
Last edited by BEagle; 21st May 2004 at 08:03.
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Hmmm, Westcoast - your talking sh*t.
I just saw a news report on this. Their were no heavy weapons sniper rifles, large calibre weapons, sat gear, millions in dinars and foreign terrorists in attendance.
Their were:
- a few guns which every house in Iraq has.
- $1000. Hardly a huge amount.
- A large number of men who were of fighting age. Guess that makes them terrorists.
- Many women and children present. Many killed by the USA.
The US army is losing the argument on this one, as reported by the BBC. However nobody can be sure exactly what was going on. I too suspect it could have been dodgy, but it should have been dealt with better. All that has been achieved is more anger in the arab world. The Americans made a hash of it as usual.
Hours of bombing on a single f**king house. I think 40 bombs were dropped. One for each person in attendance. Have the Americans never heard of a term known as "collateral damage".
Surely a softer approach would have been appropriate, such as surrounding the building with a large force and laying seige to it. This would have been the better option. But of course the psycho Americans destroy it with spectre gunships and fighter jets and then follow up on the ground. A wounded animal is much more dangerous than an unwounded one.
Westcoast - your desperately trying to defend your countries tactics, that is perfectly understandable. However this is getting harder and harder for you to do because your military tacticians are too inexperienced in this type of situation (battle for hearts and minds).
The best option would be to give the British commanders control. They would be much more able to control the vast resources and technology which the Americans have. There would certainly be a lot less bloodshed.
I just saw a news report on this. Their were no heavy weapons sniper rifles, large calibre weapons, sat gear, millions in dinars and foreign terrorists in attendance.
Their were:
- a few guns which every house in Iraq has.
- $1000. Hardly a huge amount.
- A large number of men who were of fighting age. Guess that makes them terrorists.
- Many women and children present. Many killed by the USA.
The US army is losing the argument on this one, as reported by the BBC. However nobody can be sure exactly what was going on. I too suspect it could have been dodgy, but it should have been dealt with better. All that has been achieved is more anger in the arab world. The Americans made a hash of it as usual.
Hours of bombing on a single f**king house. I think 40 bombs were dropped. One for each person in attendance. Have the Americans never heard of a term known as "collateral damage".
Surely a softer approach would have been appropriate, such as surrounding the building with a large force and laying seige to it. This would have been the better option. But of course the psycho Americans destroy it with spectre gunships and fighter jets and then follow up on the ground. A wounded animal is much more dangerous than an unwounded one.
Westcoast - your desperately trying to defend your countries tactics, that is perfectly understandable. However this is getting harder and harder for you to do because your military tacticians are too inexperienced in this type of situation (battle for hearts and minds).
The best option would be to give the British commanders control. They would be much more able to control the vast resources and technology which the Americans have. There would certainly be a lot less bloodshed.
For f*ck's sake! I hope that this doesn't turn out to have been a serious blunder?
The next thing you'll be telling me is that the CIA don't know the difference between satellite communication equipment and an innocent Al Jazeera antenna.........
Maybe I'll have a look at Redneck News (Fox) to see what unbiased report they have on this......
The next thing you'll be telling me is that the CIA don't know the difference between satellite communication equipment and an innocent Al Jazeera antenna.........
Maybe I'll have a look at Redneck News (Fox) to see what unbiased report they have on this......
Beagle
You make it look easy talking out both sides of your mouth.
You said before you had the facts...
______________________________________________
"it looks just like the old, pre-cab tractors of my youth still used in that part of the world. Look carefully and you can see the steering wheel, mirror and the hot rear transmission casing. No AAA system I've ever seen looked like that, nor would it be stuck out in the open in that way with a hot barrel after being used."
"Sorry, but convince me it's anything more than gung-ho bullies murdering some farm workers. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise......."
____________________________________________________
Now you say after the unedited version proves you wrong after
all your work to condemn US forces you retreat to this...
_________________________________________________
"The 'farmers' may well have been a legitimate target. It was the murder of the wounded man which I found unacceptable."
_________________________________________________
You found the targeting of the "farmers" unacceptable and condemned it as actions by thugs. Without so much as an accurate fact basing all you knew off a heavily edited (for dubious purposes) video you condemned the attack. Wouldn't a wise man have waited for the facts to come out, or at least seek all available info (unedited version) before finding fault? You condemned the US for the attack, you were wrong we now know. You supported the "farmers" as doing legit work. Wrong again as time and facts have shown.
As to the wedding, you look like a ping pong ball. Bouncing back and forth to one side of the issue to the other. Did you learn a lesson from earlier mistakes and decide to play both sides of the coin?
Look to Fox news all you want. Fox is not my first choice, nor second choice of news. It however hasn't had to appoint a truth czar from the outside to monitor its reporting for bias and accuracy such as the biased broadcasting corporation has had to do. I guess that makes it at least as credible as the BBC as a news source.
As to the wedding, time and not the media will tell. Just as in the "farmer" case we are now seeing limited video clips designed for maximum effect. You may choose to make your case on these, just remember what happened last time you did.
You make it look easy talking out both sides of your mouth.
You said before you had the facts...
______________________________________________
"it looks just like the old, pre-cab tractors of my youth still used in that part of the world. Look carefully and you can see the steering wheel, mirror and the hot rear transmission casing. No AAA system I've ever seen looked like that, nor would it be stuck out in the open in that way with a hot barrel after being used."
"Sorry, but convince me it's anything more than gung-ho bullies murdering some farm workers. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise......."
____________________________________________________
Now you say after the unedited version proves you wrong after
all your work to condemn US forces you retreat to this...
_________________________________________________
"The 'farmers' may well have been a legitimate target. It was the murder of the wounded man which I found unacceptable."
_________________________________________________
You found the targeting of the "farmers" unacceptable and condemned it as actions by thugs. Without so much as an accurate fact basing all you knew off a heavily edited (for dubious purposes) video you condemned the attack. Wouldn't a wise man have waited for the facts to come out, or at least seek all available info (unedited version) before finding fault? You condemned the US for the attack, you were wrong we now know. You supported the "farmers" as doing legit work. Wrong again as time and facts have shown.
As to the wedding, you look like a ping pong ball. Bouncing back and forth to one side of the issue to the other. Did you learn a lesson from earlier mistakes and decide to play both sides of the coin?
Look to Fox news all you want. Fox is not my first choice, nor second choice of news. It however hasn't had to appoint a truth czar from the outside to monitor its reporting for bias and accuracy such as the biased broadcasting corporation has had to do. I guess that makes it at least as credible as the BBC as a news source.
As to the wedding, time and not the media will tell. Just as in the "farmer" case we are now seeing limited video clips designed for maximum effect. You may choose to make your case on these, just remember what happened last time you did.
"I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise"
That's what I wrote.
As for Fox, do you understand satirical comment? Probably not - you might consider it un-American.
That's what I wrote.
As for Fox, do you understand satirical comment? Probably not - you might consider it un-American.