Another Nail in the Coffin
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Another Nail in the Coffin
This was on another thread but probably deserves its own. As always the devil is in the detail but as a concept is yet another nail in the coffin.
From the Telegraph and thanks to HectorusRex for first spotting it
Forces face pay cut but senior officers refuse to surrender rail perk
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 25/04/2004)
The Ministry of Defence is facing angry protests over plans to cut the pay of thousands of Britain's troops at the same time as allowing senior officers to retain the perk of first class train travel.
Under the controversial cost-cutting measures, which are intended to make up for losses incurred before the war in Iraq, large numbers of service personnel will lose the extra pay they receive for performing specialist duties.
Geoff Hoon ordered cuts of £1 billion a year
Among those affected are pilots and aircrew, submariners, parachutists, bomb and ordnance disposal engineers, divers, linguists and even dog handlers.
Officials involved in drawing up the measures argued that members of the special forces should also face pay cuts, but the idea was rejected as too contentious.
A proposal that the first class train travel enjoyed by officers above the rank of major should be removed was also vetoed, adding to the anger of rank-and-file soldiers about their own pay cuts.
The cost-cutting proposals were accepted by the three Services chiefs during a meeting of the Defence Management Board last Thursday.
The board, which includes the heads of the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force, and Sir Kevin Tebbit, the Permanent Under-Secretary of State for Defence, is in the process of deciding on the future structures and budgets of each of the three Services.
The recommendations will be put to Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, next month. If approved, the cuts could come into force as early as 2005.
The budgetary problems within the MoD have been caused by the introduction of a new accounting system. It required that all future spending plans were to be based on the value of the department's assets, such as its tanks, jets and warships.
The Treasury, however, claimed that Mr Hoon's department had got its sums wrong and overestimated the value of its assets. The Defence Secretary has responded by ordering savings of more than £1 billion a year until 2005-2006.
Service pay is one of the most complex areas within the military. It not only varies according to rank, but also length of service. The process is further complicated by the service conditions of personnel qualified in specialist areas, such as flying duties, parachuting and diving.
Under current service pay and conditions, troops in receipt of specialist pay receive extra cash even if they are in a posting that prevents them from using their skills, such as a staff position in the MoD. Under the new proposals, however, only those servicemen and women using their specialist skills - such as pilots posted to an operational squadron - will receive specialist pay.
Flying pay is the most lucrative skill on offer to servicemen. Specialist aircrew, such as Chinook helicopter or Hercules transport aircraft pilots trained to work with the special forces, can boost their salaries by £49.31 a day or about £18,000 a year.
Those qualified to undertake deep and experimental diving can earn £247.61 per dive, while those selected to serve in the submarine service earn an extra £9.80 a day, which rises to a daily rate of £17.72 after 15 years.
Members of the Parachute Regiment are entitled to an additional £4.42 a day, providing they complete four parachute jumps a year.
British officers who join the Brigade of Gurkhas earn an extra £1.16 once they have passed an oral proficiency examination in Gurkhali - the language spoken by Nepalese Gurkhas.
During last Thursday's meeting it was also suggested that hundreds of thousands of pounds could be saved each year if senior officers lost the privilege of first class rail travel. That proposal was thrown out on the grounds that officers travelling to meetings by train require the quieter atmosphere of a first class carriage to prepare.
A senior Army officer said: "Thousands of servicemen and women are going to have their pay cut because senior officers and civil servants got their sums wrong. At the same time, those officials have decided that they can't possibly live without first class rail travel. It's a disgrace."
One RAF officer, who currently earns flying pay, said of the proposed cuts: "If that's what is going to happen, await the mass exodus."
A senior officer in the Parachute Regiment added: "The unintended consequence of this ruling will be that soldiers will leave the forces in their droves.
"The Parachute Regiment and the SAS are already losing men because they are being offered lucrative jobs working for security companies in Iraq. If their pay is going to be cut, they won't think twice about leaving - they'll think once."
From the Telegraph and thanks to HectorusRex for first spotting it
Forces face pay cut but senior officers refuse to surrender rail perk
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 25/04/2004)
The Ministry of Defence is facing angry protests over plans to cut the pay of thousands of Britain's troops at the same time as allowing senior officers to retain the perk of first class train travel.
Under the controversial cost-cutting measures, which are intended to make up for losses incurred before the war in Iraq, large numbers of service personnel will lose the extra pay they receive for performing specialist duties.
Geoff Hoon ordered cuts of £1 billion a year
Among those affected are pilots and aircrew, submariners, parachutists, bomb and ordnance disposal engineers, divers, linguists and even dog handlers.
Officials involved in drawing up the measures argued that members of the special forces should also face pay cuts, but the idea was rejected as too contentious.
A proposal that the first class train travel enjoyed by officers above the rank of major should be removed was also vetoed, adding to the anger of rank-and-file soldiers about their own pay cuts.
The cost-cutting proposals were accepted by the three Services chiefs during a meeting of the Defence Management Board last Thursday.
The board, which includes the heads of the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force, and Sir Kevin Tebbit, the Permanent Under-Secretary of State for Defence, is in the process of deciding on the future structures and budgets of each of the three Services.
The recommendations will be put to Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, next month. If approved, the cuts could come into force as early as 2005.
The budgetary problems within the MoD have been caused by the introduction of a new accounting system. It required that all future spending plans were to be based on the value of the department's assets, such as its tanks, jets and warships.
The Treasury, however, claimed that Mr Hoon's department had got its sums wrong and overestimated the value of its assets. The Defence Secretary has responded by ordering savings of more than £1 billion a year until 2005-2006.
Service pay is one of the most complex areas within the military. It not only varies according to rank, but also length of service. The process is further complicated by the service conditions of personnel qualified in specialist areas, such as flying duties, parachuting and diving.
Under current service pay and conditions, troops in receipt of specialist pay receive extra cash even if they are in a posting that prevents them from using their skills, such as a staff position in the MoD. Under the new proposals, however, only those servicemen and women using their specialist skills - such as pilots posted to an operational squadron - will receive specialist pay.
Flying pay is the most lucrative skill on offer to servicemen. Specialist aircrew, such as Chinook helicopter or Hercules transport aircraft pilots trained to work with the special forces, can boost their salaries by £49.31 a day or about £18,000 a year.
Those qualified to undertake deep and experimental diving can earn £247.61 per dive, while those selected to serve in the submarine service earn an extra £9.80 a day, which rises to a daily rate of £17.72 after 15 years.
Members of the Parachute Regiment are entitled to an additional £4.42 a day, providing they complete four parachute jumps a year.
British officers who join the Brigade of Gurkhas earn an extra £1.16 once they have passed an oral proficiency examination in Gurkhali - the language spoken by Nepalese Gurkhas.
During last Thursday's meeting it was also suggested that hundreds of thousands of pounds could be saved each year if senior officers lost the privilege of first class rail travel. That proposal was thrown out on the grounds that officers travelling to meetings by train require the quieter atmosphere of a first class carriage to prepare.
A senior Army officer said: "Thousands of servicemen and women are going to have their pay cut because senior officers and civil servants got their sums wrong. At the same time, those officials have decided that they can't possibly live without first class rail travel. It's a disgrace."
One RAF officer, who currently earns flying pay, said of the proposed cuts: "If that's what is going to happen, await the mass exodus."
A senior officer in the Parachute Regiment added: "The unintended consequence of this ruling will be that soldiers will leave the forces in their droves.
"The Parachute Regiment and the SAS are already losing men because they are being offered lucrative jobs working for security companies in Iraq. If their pay is going to be cut, they won't think twice about leaving - they'll think once."
The Telegraph is also reporting that Colt and Benson are under threat:
".....Sealand, near Chester; Boulmer, in Northumberland; and Neatishead, in Norfolk, are relatively small but at least two more - at Benson in Oxfordshire and Coltishall in Norfolk - are likely to close as the cuts bite.
Coltishall, the last Battle of Britain airfield still operational, is expected to shut because the Jaguar ground attack aircraft there are to be sold off as part of the cuts." was reported yesterday.
Overstretch, pay cuts, selling off and scrapping assets - that all seems to have been given the nod. But nothing must threaten the First Class rail travel of the privileged ones......
Is the Flying Pay report merely a misunderstanding of the PA spine scheme - or is the Telegraph's report accurate?
".....Sealand, near Chester; Boulmer, in Northumberland; and Neatishead, in Norfolk, are relatively small but at least two more - at Benson in Oxfordshire and Coltishall in Norfolk - are likely to close as the cuts bite.
Coltishall, the last Battle of Britain airfield still operational, is expected to shut because the Jaguar ground attack aircraft there are to be sold off as part of the cuts." was reported yesterday.
Overstretch, pay cuts, selling off and scrapping assets - that all seems to have been given the nod. But nothing must threaten the First Class rail travel of the privileged ones......
Is the Flying Pay report merely a misunderstanding of the PA spine scheme - or is the Telegraph's report accurate?
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I do not qualify for First Class Travel, but aspire to it! Surely there must be some privileges to higher rank? How much, in absolute terms, would be saved by removing this privilege? Also, I thought one of the aims of First Class Travel was to guarantee seats so people could work on route?
I know plenty of people entitled (according to QRs) to Club travel on journeys greater than XX hours (can't remember the exact figure, but it's less than the last train journey I took!), who have been told by local budget holders that they will travel cattle class or not at all. Has this started to happen with rail travel yet?
Do the Services actually pay the full amount for rail journeys?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the rail companies, faced with a reduction in income for duty journies, removed the entitlement to Armed Forces Rail Cards.
On the subject of flying pay, is it not about time we took a look at the entitlement as it applies to people who have not flown for years, and for reasons of age, competence or personal preference will never fly again? I have no qualms with continuing to remunerate those undertaking staff duties between flying tours, but from what I witnessed at STC, there are quite a few people who appear to be taking the p*ss.
(Blue touch paper lit - retires to safe distance!)
I know plenty of people entitled (according to QRs) to Club travel on journeys greater than XX hours (can't remember the exact figure, but it's less than the last train journey I took!), who have been told by local budget holders that they will travel cattle class or not at all. Has this started to happen with rail travel yet?
Do the Services actually pay the full amount for rail journeys?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the rail companies, faced with a reduction in income for duty journies, removed the entitlement to Armed Forces Rail Cards.
On the subject of flying pay, is it not about time we took a look at the entitlement as it applies to people who have not flown for years, and for reasons of age, competence or personal preference will never fly again? I have no qualms with continuing to remunerate those undertaking staff duties between flying tours, but from what I witnessed at STC, there are quite a few people who appear to be taking the p*ss.
(Blue touch paper lit - retires to safe distance!)
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The Telegraph is as usual partly right and partly wrong. The bits that are wrong are the sensationalist linking of the current budget problems and pay. The AFPRB recommend the pay structures and the areas of specilist pay are reviewed in full every 5 years. There is a move for a reduction in the numbers who qualify for some specialist pay but it has nothing to do with the current round of budget business nor is it linked to first class duty travel.
Frankly the Telegraph is more often wrong than right - they really ought to research things more thoroughly - but their agenda is to beat up the government with whatever sticks come to hand so why should they let the facts get in the way!
Don't waste money on buying the rag - read it on line!
Frankly the Telegraph is more often wrong than right - they really ought to research things more thoroughly - but their agenda is to beat up the government with whatever sticks come to hand so why should they let the facts get in the way!
Don't waste money on buying the rag - read it on line!
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Have to agree in the idea that those not actually in a position to carry out the role they are being paid for should not receive the specialist pay!
All those in HQ's etc receiving flying pay when in some instances they have not flown in years and may never will again, seems mad to pay them! On the same path some of these individuals probably received the finiancial incentive payments when in alot of circumstances pilots in flying post did'nt. (especially true in the case of the AAC). Also seems total madness to allow these people to then qualify for PES.
Perhaps the government has finally got something right...Pay those that do the work, not those that did..once..a long long time ago!
Certainly the case of SF when you finish the tour so does the money...so guys firstly what is new and what is the problem in the proposal? And if the answer is retention, don't accept the staff job, put your money where your mouth is and get out!
All those in HQ's etc receiving flying pay when in some instances they have not flown in years and may never will again, seems mad to pay them! On the same path some of these individuals probably received the finiancial incentive payments when in alot of circumstances pilots in flying post did'nt. (especially true in the case of the AAC). Also seems total madness to allow these people to then qualify for PES.
Perhaps the government has finally got something right...Pay those that do the work, not those that did..once..a long long time ago!
Certainly the case of SF when you finish the tour so does the money...so guys firstly what is new and what is the problem in the proposal? And if the answer is retention, don't accept the staff job, put your money where your mouth is and get out!
Aren't there already sufficient regulations in place governing those who seek long term absence from legitimate opportunities to fly receiving Flying Pay? I recall there being something?
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not actually in a position to carry out the role they are being paid for should not receive the specialist pay!
There was a review a few years ago which was meant to identify 'flying related posts' that would continue to receive FP, how many do you think failed to qualify?
Senior officers' flying pay does start to go down after a certain time at SO1 level, but not to zero.
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Wasn't there a DCI out around a year ago stating that regulations, such as QRs, no longer dictate class of travel? I believe it is now up to the budget holder. Also, I understand that there is now a note at the start of QRs stating that they are for guidance only. According to QRs all officers flying over 5 hours are entitled to business class; when was the last time that was honoured for pre-positioning aircrew? Perhaps if we cancelled all admin trips to overseas destinations, for the purpose of checking hotels and meal prices, for a week each time, and believed the crews when they submit receipts and menus - then we could save, oh I dunno - £50 000 each year.
While we're suggesting cost cutting measures - buy into the USAF flight suit and kitting procurement. £50 per suit instead od £130. That could save a few bob.
I could go on...
While we're suggesting cost cutting measures - buy into the USAF flight suit and kitting procurement. £50 per suit instead od £130. That could save a few bob.
I could go on...
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SirToppamHat,
Just how many 'exra' perks would you like to see Officers get?
More Money ?
Better Accomodation ?
Better disturbance allowance ?
More LOA ?
More flying pay ?
Et al ?
I don't think you need any more perks quite frankly!
As for the people at STC receiving flying pay etc. I think that you will find the vast majority of them are your very own Officer bretherin! Why not put a case forward to take their flying pay off them, to ensure that you can have have 1st class rail travel? sound like a plan to me!
Thirtymill, frankly Sir, the same goes for you. Those of us who joined to fly, WANT TO FLY! I have done numerous flying tours, unfortunately inter-laced with a few ground tours forced upon me by the incompetants at PMA. Please don't make life any harder for us though, by cutting our pay old chap!
If money is so vital, lets stop wasting it on all this cr@p niff naff and trivia rubbish such as ethnic minority surveys, this study, that study blah!
I am still the White, English, Male, C of E person I was when I joined up 30+ yrs ago. Why do I need to have to keep filling in forms to say so?
Rant over, time for a lie down
Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, fetch me a large glass of grouse old bean'
Just how many 'exra' perks would you like to see Officers get?
More Money ?
Better Accomodation ?
Better disturbance allowance ?
More LOA ?
More flying pay ?
Et al ?
I don't think you need any more perks quite frankly!
As for the people at STC receiving flying pay etc. I think that you will find the vast majority of them are your very own Officer bretherin! Why not put a case forward to take their flying pay off them, to ensure that you can have have 1st class rail travel? sound like a plan to me!
Thirtymill, frankly Sir, the same goes for you. Those of us who joined to fly, WANT TO FLY! I have done numerous flying tours, unfortunately inter-laced with a few ground tours forced upon me by the incompetants at PMA. Please don't make life any harder for us though, by cutting our pay old chap!
If money is so vital, lets stop wasting it on all this cr@p niff naff and trivia rubbish such as ethnic minority surveys, this study, that study blah!
I am still the White, English, Male, C of E person I was when I joined up 30+ yrs ago. Why do I need to have to keep filling in forms to say so?
Rant over, time for a lie down
Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, fetch me a large glass of grouse old bean'
How lucky I was that, apart from a few weeks holding between courses, 6 weeks filling in for someone else in the Malvinas and 7 weeks of PVR porridge at the end, I never had a single ground tour in the 30 years I had my wings!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Cancelling senior officers rights to first class travel is insignificant when set against the fact that all civil servants, not just MOD, at grade C2 and higher have the right to first class travel.
Stop the military and you immediately have inequality and possible oddities of the CS travelling in a different carriage from his military counter part.
Stop CS first class travel and you have the trades unions at your throat.
I've got it and I want it, but I have only used it twice in 3 years.
Stop the military and you immediately have inequality and possible oddities of the CS travelling in a different carriage from his military counter part.
Stop CS first class travel and you have the trades unions at your throat.
I've got it and I want it, but I have only used it twice in 3 years.
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Swinging Monkey
None. I made the point that I was not entitled to 1st Class Travel.
I do not necessarily want any new, additional perks, but I do wish to retain those that already exist. I do believe in RHIP, else I would not have joined the Service. In this regard we are no different from any other organisation! If it bothers you so much, why did you join? What's stopping you leaving?
I also think that some of your implied inequalities no longer exist; wrt housing in particular, as a SNCO I would actually qualify for a better FQ than I am entitled to as a JO.
I am also not against flying pay, even for those on the ground between flying tours. I 100% agree that we waste loads of money on surveys, IIP, NVQs and so on.
STH
Just how many 'exra' perks would you like to see Officers get?
I do not necessarily want any new, additional perks, but I do wish to retain those that already exist. I do believe in RHIP, else I would not have joined the Service. In this regard we are no different from any other organisation! If it bothers you so much, why did you join? What's stopping you leaving?
I also think that some of your implied inequalities no longer exist; wrt housing in particular, as a SNCO I would actually qualify for a better FQ than I am entitled to as a JO.
I am also not against flying pay, even for those on the ground between flying tours. I 100% agree that we waste loads of money on surveys, IIP, NVQs and so on.
STH
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Not everyone going to a ground tour is a volunteer - I was taken kicking and screaming and am now stuck in the vicious ground tour cycle. If told that promotion to Sqn Ldr means one flying tour followed by a massive pay cut on your ground tours, how many people are going to take it, apart from the creepy types that think they're meant to be CAS. Where would we be with sqns full of 55 year old Flt Lts in a RAF run solely (at all levels) by self-interested career chasers.
That's what the proposal to get rid of flying pay on ground tours would do. When they tried to atract people acros to Ops Support it was with the carrot of accelerated promotion being more likely than staying in the flying branch. You pay (or lose) your money and take your choice. I keep putting flying posts on my annual report wish list but haven't got back there yet.
That's what the proposal to get rid of flying pay on ground tours would do. When they tried to atract people acros to Ops Support it was with the carrot of accelerated promotion being more likely than staying in the flying branch. You pay (or lose) your money and take your choice. I keep putting flying posts on my annual report wish list but haven't got back there yet.
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Accelerated Promotion?
A transfer to OS will not get you promoted quicker than the Flying Branch, but a transfer to Admin might! Rumour control has it that ,this year, the points total required for the Admin Branch for promotion to S/L was approximately a quarter of that for the OS Branch. But then, who wants to be a scribbly?
STANDBY - MUSCAT, OMAN
Ali,
You must be on the LOA rate from Hell. Do you not get paid by 2 Air Forces? Yup, that ground tour thing must be a killer
STANDBY - MUSCAT, OMAN
Ali,
You must be on the LOA rate from Hell. Do you not get paid by 2 Air Forces? Yup, that ground tour thing must be a killer
Last edited by SpotterFC; 26th Apr 2004 at 20:44.
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I do believe in RHIP, else I would not have joined the Service
Didn't you join to save the world from Communism? I did
(well I was kind of young.....)
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Flying Pay doesn't have anything to do with flying, it is a means of targeting retension incentives. Otherwise why don't NCA (or whatever we are called now) get the same as you CA's. It only gets associated with flying whenever the Admin side, treasury, whoever wants to make the connection for their own purposes!!
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Of course, Jnr Officers, SNCOs etc etc never attend meetings or need to prepare en-route!!
Errr? classic! Guess there'll be another study soon, chaired by a 1 star, into how many posts they have to cut to re-decorate CAS's married Quarter!!
Errr? classic! Guess there'll be another study soon, chaired by a 1 star, into how many posts they have to cut to re-decorate CAS's married Quarter!!
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SO1 - Cdr / Lt Colonel / Wg Cdr
SO2 - Lt Cdr / Major / Sqn Ldr
SO3 - Lt / Captain / Flt Lt
Glad to see that jointery is alive and well in the modern and well-equipped armed forces of today !!
Edited for typos
SO2 - Lt Cdr / Major / Sqn Ldr
SO3 - Lt / Captain / Flt Lt
Glad to see that jointery is alive and well in the modern and well-equipped armed forces of today !!
Edited for typos