Why is the Merlin so good
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Why is the Merlin so good
A RW colleague of mine on another forum said we need a thread on how good the Merlin HM 1 is and why all us operator types like it so much.
Well in these times of rumour and counter-rumour especially from those who want to kill off other peoples projects I will start. Of course there will be the detractors but I'm sure we can guarantee they aren't Merlin orientated or have ever been closer than watching a flypast.
The aircraft is much better than the Sea King it replaces - more space, better radar , sonar and other kit.
It flies very much like a Lynx and around the flight deck whether its at night or in poor weather its a complete dream to handle.
Its fast and smooth - senior officers love to be transported in it.
On a frigate its like having and airborne ops room, SH helo and ASW aircraft all in one. It can do all these things at once without serious limitation to the other roles.
Despite what you might believe or have been told its an epic SAR platform.
You may wish to disagree with me on serviceability or the like but thats not an inherent aircraft design issue - its the support/stores contract that was put in place by our friend Mr Portillo in 1993/4. Funny how the Conservatives forget all their best decisions.
Costs - all costs of aircraft these days relate to total aircraft PROGRAMME costs - including design support and simulators etc. I guarantee you that is not the case when you compare with other aircraft and how much are Nimrod MR4s a piece?
Finally - if you want to really comment on Merlin. Travel SW and visit Culdrose - get in one (or even see the sim) - and decide objectively for yourself.
I expect someone will bring the accident up in this thread - DON'T!, wait for the BOI.
Well in these times of rumour and counter-rumour especially from those who want to kill off other peoples projects I will start. Of course there will be the detractors but I'm sure we can guarantee they aren't Merlin orientated or have ever been closer than watching a flypast.
The aircraft is much better than the Sea King it replaces - more space, better radar , sonar and other kit.
It flies very much like a Lynx and around the flight deck whether its at night or in poor weather its a complete dream to handle.
Its fast and smooth - senior officers love to be transported in it.
On a frigate its like having and airborne ops room, SH helo and ASW aircraft all in one. It can do all these things at once without serious limitation to the other roles.
Despite what you might believe or have been told its an epic SAR platform.
You may wish to disagree with me on serviceability or the like but thats not an inherent aircraft design issue - its the support/stores contract that was put in place by our friend Mr Portillo in 1993/4. Funny how the Conservatives forget all their best decisions.
Costs - all costs of aircraft these days relate to total aircraft PROGRAMME costs - including design support and simulators etc. I guarantee you that is not the case when you compare with other aircraft and how much are Nimrod MR4s a piece?
Finally - if you want to really comment on Merlin. Travel SW and visit Culdrose - get in one (or even see the sim) - and decide objectively for yourself.
I expect someone will bring the accident up in this thread - DON'T!, wait for the BOI.
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Finally - if you want to really comment on Merlin. Travel SW and visit Culdrose - get in one (or even see the sim) - and decide objectively for yourself
My criticism is not with the machine, but the machinations behind it's development and introduction. In '84 it started out at £12.5M, and as usual has gone way beyond anticipated costs. Unfortunately from what I see and understand the aircraft is under supplied with spares, which must be a tragedy for those trying to introduce it to service.
Glad to see you chaps enjoy the beast.
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I walked up the ramp on one in the hangar the other day. I am only 6' tall in my boots and could not stand upright. I was not wearing a bonedome. Would it have been that difficult/costly/impractical to have the cabin 6" higher. It must be murder on the back of the poor bloke who spends his time wandering around in the back.
In general; why do you bother with retractable wheels on choppers. With your limited speed I wouldn't have thought the weight/complication penalty was worth it
Mike W
In general; why do you bother with retractable wheels on choppers. With your limited speed I wouldn't have thought the weight/complication penalty was worth it
Mike W
Merlin threads are prone to be troublesome because some of us are talking about the Grey Navy ones, others about Green RAF ones....
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 7th Apr 2004 at 22:36.
Marlin threads are prone to be troublesome
We're occasionally visited by Merlins at the plc (useful for drying the outfield on the cricket pitch). Mighty impressive beasties. Although whether one was required to deliver an A4 sized package to an ICSC inmate might be debated....
Last edited by Archimedes; 7th Apr 2004 at 22:35.
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Haven't had the chance to get in one yet (a grey one! 
) but I understand they are much much smoother and quieter than lynx with similar performance - for a big beast! Also... I believe the ration of aircrew nutty consumed is proportional to the size of the aircraft...? Big helo... 
Are they looking at re-roling it at all?? SAR or replacement for SKMk4?
) but I understand they are much much smoother and quieter than lynx with similar performance - for a big beast! Also... I believe the ration of aircrew nutty consumed is proportional to the size of the aircraft...? Big helo... Are they looking at re-roling it at all?? SAR or replacement for SKMk4?
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Let me count the ways:
Big
Fast
Smooth
Digimap
INS
Does most things other helos do, just as well, if not better
Crashworthiness (I know that one is a bit of optimism in the face of adversity)
Potential - PID/FLIR, Missile, bigger gun for starters
I would never admit it to our jungly or lynx bretheren, but ASW in a SK was dull. Long, long periods of boredom punctuated only occasionally by moments of sheer terror. (There I was, 40', in the dip, 100 miles from Mum, Black as witches bits....etc) With Merlin, the 'driver' has finally been invited to the party and can not only see what is going on, can get involved, rather than responding to (or more often, forgetting) steer commands from the Zero in the back. Stovies called it S.A. We didn't call it anything in Sea Kings cos the front seat didn't have any.
Why do we in Merlin land leap to her defence so readily? Because we have been doing it for so long. Never has a new toy been so maligned. We have bought it, the money is gone, lets fix it, fly it and enjoy it.
The King is dead, long live the sorcerer
Big
Fast
Smooth
Digimap
INS
Does most things other helos do, just as well, if not better
Crashworthiness (I know that one is a bit of optimism in the face of adversity)
Potential - PID/FLIR, Missile, bigger gun for starters
I would never admit it to our jungly or lynx bretheren, but ASW in a SK was dull. Long, long periods of boredom punctuated only occasionally by moments of sheer terror. (There I was, 40', in the dip, 100 miles from Mum, Black as witches bits....etc) With Merlin, the 'driver' has finally been invited to the party and can not only see what is going on, can get involved, rather than responding to (or more often, forgetting) steer commands from the Zero in the back. Stovies called it S.A. We didn't call it anything in Sea Kings cos the front seat didn't have any.
Why do we in Merlin land leap to her defence so readily? Because we have been doing it for so long. Never has a new toy been so maligned. We have bought it, the money is gone, lets fix it, fly it and enjoy it.
The King is dead, long live the sorcerer
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strictly regarding the dark green merlot here...
I had heard that it was a bit of a let down, particularly with not being able to hover on two engines? Admittedly I was talking to a ex-Chinook display pilot (not exactly objective
) but the impression he gave was that it was the jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
I hope someone can prove me wrong since I could well be flying one if I go to Shawbury and beyond!
Hungry
I had heard that it was a bit of a let down, particularly with not being able to hover on two engines? Admittedly I was talking to a ex-Chinook display pilot (not exactly objective
) but the impression he gave was that it was the jack-of-all-trades, master of none.I hope someone can prove me wrong since I could well be flying one if I go to Shawbury and beyond!
Hungry
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Merlin HC3
As a Mk 3 operator, I can echo the enthusiasm of the RN. Yes, the Chinook can lift three times as much, but the Merlin can go as far, faster, more quietly, more smoothly, in greater safety, better protected and with more, more modern, kit in the cockpit. Our icing clearance is already better than any other helicopter in UK service and that's only at the interim level. Yes, there are things I'd like to chnage about it, but would I swap places with a Chinook pilot? Not for all the 10 ton ISOs that are moved from one end of a car park to another every year!
As for the rumour that Merlin can't hover on 2 engines, I have to suppress a yawn every time I hear it. At max all-up mass, at high density altitudes, if one engine fails, you can't hover; but show me a helicopter that this isn't true for! Actually the OEI performance is impressive. You're often not committed until the very last minute, if at all at training weights in a temperate environment. Think about it: if you lose an engine in a twin engine helicopter, you're down to maybe 60 percent of your power, taking into account emergency ratings of the engine; in a 3-engined helicopter, losing an engine limits you to something more like 75 or 80 percent. And in any case, the RTM 322 is incredibly good - I believe the rate of engine rejection is still in single figures after some 120,000 hours of fleet operation.
Spares are still an issue, but when you have them, this is a very reliable aircraft. The availability rate of the Mk 3 in Bosnia was close to 98 percent.
As for the rumour that Merlin can't hover on 2 engines, I have to suppress a yawn every time I hear it. At max all-up mass, at high density altitudes, if one engine fails, you can't hover; but show me a helicopter that this isn't true for! Actually the OEI performance is impressive. You're often not committed until the very last minute, if at all at training weights in a temperate environment. Think about it: if you lose an engine in a twin engine helicopter, you're down to maybe 60 percent of your power, taking into account emergency ratings of the engine; in a 3-engined helicopter, losing an engine limits you to something more like 75 or 80 percent. And in any case, the RTM 322 is incredibly good - I believe the rate of engine rejection is still in single figures after some 120,000 hours of fleet operation.
Spares are still an issue, but when you have them, this is a very reliable aircraft. The availability rate of the Mk 3 in Bosnia was close to 98 percent.
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Quote:
Yes, there are things I'd like to chnage about it, but would I swap places with a Chinook pilot? Not for all the 10 ton ISOs that are moved from one end of a car park to another every year!
Nice to hear OA, thanks very much!
You mention servicability being close to 98% in bosnia...
Is this based on an abundance of spares, and the comfort of a solid airbase to wrap up warm in at night? Do you think it would retain a high servicability when compared to the likes of the Puma/Chinook etc in a more "field" deployment (for want of a better expression)?
I only ask since I see the Mk3 a lot at Leeming, with enourmous scaffolding erected around it between flights. Seems to me like it requires a lot to get it going (mind you, I should probably get off my a$$e and talk to the crew ).
Thanks
Hungry
Yes, there are things I'd like to chnage about it, but would I swap places with a Chinook pilot? Not for all the 10 ton ISOs that are moved from one end of a car park to another every year!
Nice to hear OA, thanks very much!
You mention servicability being close to 98% in bosnia...
Is this based on an abundance of spares, and the comfort of a solid airbase to wrap up warm in at night? Do you think it would retain a high servicability when compared to the likes of the Puma/Chinook etc in a more "field" deployment (for want of a better expression)?
I only ask since I see the Mk3 a lot at Leeming, with enourmous scaffolding erected around it between flights. Seems to me like it requires a lot to get it going (mind you, I should probably get off my a$$e and talk to the crew
).Thanks
Hungry
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Bosnia is actually operating out of a disused metal factory, not an airfield; basic but admittedly not as austere as a field location. We have operated out of field sites a number of times without any significant problems though.
The gantries you see around the aircraft at Leeming are a health and safety thing because it's so tall... as I recall, the servicing is done in a hangar full of tornados in bits and the Merlins seem to spend less time there than the jets!
The gantries you see around the aircraft at Leeming are a health and safety thing because it's so tall... as I recall, the servicing is done in a hangar full of tornados in bits and the Merlins seem to spend less time there than the jets!
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The Mk 1
Melrin Dip - thanks for breaking this thread out of the accident - no I will not mention it!
Having flown the aircraft, I agree with your sentiments and support your view that the Merlin Mk 1 is a world beater with much to offer the ASW, AsuW and SAR fraternities. Having also been winched out of the sea by one, however, I still believe that the Sea King, or smaller helos have their place in certain SAR scenarios where the Merlin downwash would be excessive. Do not get me wrong - the aircraft has the speed of response, range and avionics to meet the demands of most SAR situations but there are limitations as I am sure the Canadian Cormorant will find.
There are still a few things missing..........
The twin wheels on the Mk 3 is an item that the Mk 1 dearly needs! With only single wheels of the main undercarriage it imposes too many operating restrictions, not to mention the safety aspects of relying on one tyre on one side!
It needs a Defensive Aid Suite (DAS) if we intend to operate it in the littoral.
It needs an Electro Optice (EO) device if we are going to take the ASuW role seriously and..........
............it needs an anti surface weapon!
How do the rear seat crews now feel about flying backwards (facing aft) - does it still affect their SA or have they adapted?
Having flown the aircraft, I agree with your sentiments and support your view that the Merlin Mk 1 is a world beater with much to offer the ASW, AsuW and SAR fraternities. Having also been winched out of the sea by one, however, I still believe that the Sea King, or smaller helos have their place in certain SAR scenarios where the Merlin downwash would be excessive. Do not get me wrong - the aircraft has the speed of response, range and avionics to meet the demands of most SAR situations but there are limitations as I am sure the Canadian Cormorant will find.
There are still a few things missing..........
The twin wheels on the Mk 3 is an item that the Mk 1 dearly needs! With only single wheels of the main undercarriage it imposes too many operating restrictions, not to mention the safety aspects of relying on one tyre on one side!
It needs a Defensive Aid Suite (DAS) if we intend to operate it in the littoral.
It needs an Electro Optice (EO) device if we are going to take the ASuW role seriously and..........
............it needs an anti surface weapon!
How do the rear seat crews now feel about flying backwards (facing aft) - does it still affect their SA or have they adapted?
Sorry - but since littoral = near enemy bases
It also needs a Sea Harrier or similar to protect from enemy aircraft.....
Surely the MOD have thought about defending helicopters from hostile MiGs, Sukhoi etc?
Surely the MOD have thought about defending helicopters from hostile MiGs, Sukhoi etc?
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Littoral does not always mean enemy bases near by. But enemy is certainly more likely. A good DAS is rather important. But that is a project issue and not Merlin specific.
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The twin wheels on the Mk 3 is an item that the Mk 1 dearly needs! With only single wheels of the main undercarriage it imposes too many operating restrictions,
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I know this thread is specifically not referring to the accident down at Culdrose which is great, but is the Merlin still 'good' enough to beat the competition for 'Marine One'?
It's going to be mighty hard to fend off the obvious criticisms from Mr Sikorsky about reliability etc and isn't the contract supposed to be being awarded in the next month or so and thus before BOI findings are released......
It's going to be mighty hard to fend off the obvious criticisms from Mr Sikorsky about reliability etc and isn't the contract supposed to be being awarded in the next month or so and thus before BOI findings are released......
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OA - We can castor the Mk3 ok!
I think he was meaning the mains so it can swivel into wind on a flight deck.
Ref. downwash. The Danes have opted for Merlin for SAR having done a Downwash trial against an NH90 so it can't be all bad.
Sea King has more than a Wessex, which had more than a Whirlwind etc, sometimes its good to be picked up by anything.
Ref. downwash. The Danes have opted for Merlin for SAR having done a Downwash trial against an NH90 so it can't be all bad.
Sea King has more than a Wessex, which had more than a Whirlwind etc, sometimes its good to be picked up by anything.