linton briefing 6apr04
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Sorry to interupt, but as I'm starting IOT on 4th April having been selected for Pilot, a few alarm bells are ringing in the distance!
Firstly, I've heard there're only 60 on my IOT course, which is 30 - 40 less than normal. Of that, I have no idea how many are selected for pilot. I've not completed EFT, so my question is, are there other non-EFT guys/gals waiting for EFT? Secondly (assuming they still want to put more people through EFT), how long on average does EFT take to complete in months/weeks?
Finally, as streaming etc all seems so far away, anyone any ideas how long the back log for BFJT/MELIN/Rotary will take to clear?
Thanks in advance.
Firstly, I've heard there're only 60 on my IOT course, which is 30 - 40 less than normal. Of that, I have no idea how many are selected for pilot. I've not completed EFT, so my question is, are there other non-EFT guys/gals waiting for EFT? Secondly (assuming they still want to put more people through EFT), how long on average does EFT take to complete in months/weeks?
Finally, as streaming etc all seems so far away, anyone any ideas how long the back log for BFJT/MELIN/Rotary will take to clear?
Thanks in advance.
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w2n, Im starting end of May, and have been having similar thoughts to yourself, this is my interpretation:
As people have already mentioned, the demand seems to go in cycles, and obviously things are pretty low at the moment, thus it would seem that the longer you can avoid getting to the choke point around Linton, the better, on the understanding things have to improve at some point. If this is true it actually puts non-EFT'ers like us in a better position, since we can pootle around in the tupperware Teutors while ex-UAS mates are pegging it into the gang-f*ck trying to get a seat.
So far we've not heard from anyone being chopped BEFORE EFT for being surplus to requirements.
Standing by to be corrected.
As people have already mentioned, the demand seems to go in cycles, and obviously things are pretty low at the moment, thus it would seem that the longer you can avoid getting to the choke point around Linton, the better, on the understanding things have to improve at some point. If this is true it actually puts non-EFT'ers like us in a better position, since we can pootle around in the tupperware Teutors while ex-UAS mates are pegging it into the gang-f*ck trying to get a seat.
So far we've not heard from anyone being chopped BEFORE EFT for being surplus to requirements.
Standing by to be corrected.
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w2n
You have ages before you will finish EFT, after IOT you'll wait for your course, so we'll call that 8 months, then EFT takes, or is schedule for 24 weeks inc. groundschool. Streaming will be a couple of weeks afterward, so I reckon thats well over as year. By this time all this trouble will be solved one way or another, so you'll be in a "better" position. By this time the RAF will have realised they have made a huge mistake, and be desperate for you, youll probably skip linton, do a few trips at Valley, then straight to the OCU. Hmm well the last bit is probably rubbish.
You have ages before you will finish EFT, after IOT you'll wait for your course, so we'll call that 8 months, then EFT takes, or is schedule for 24 weeks inc. groundschool. Streaming will be a couple of weeks afterward, so I reckon thats well over as year. By this time all this trouble will be solved one way or another, so you'll be in a "better" position. By this time the RAF will have realised they have made a huge mistake, and be desperate for you, youll probably skip linton, do a few trips at Valley, then straight to the OCU. Hmm well the last bit is probably rubbish.
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It's ok boys and girls I heard Mc donalds are still recruiting , better food , better uniform and longer career prospects , If you think you will all get Rotary jobs think again , there a load of nimrod boys ahead in the que first!!!!!!
Had a very interesting brief from some people in the know today.....no one is showing their cards re the downsizing of the light-blue 'til the summer...whenever that will be.
7-8000 is likely to be the cut.
FJ IPS will immediately reduce from 60 to 30 per year
Those expecting FRI next year..don't order that new car yet, it's being looked at by the bean counters...why pay FRI's when we need to shed people?
PA spine is getting VERY competetive..see above. Currently numbers are at 450 of the 600 ish the treasury capped the numbers at....
redudancy packages will be very specifically targeted for individuals within specific trade groups.
7 - 8 Super Stations instead of the 75 stations we currently run (Aldergrove?????)
Nimrod MR4a is here to stay..numbers unknown.
200k for an untrained front-ender...v unlikely. The redundacy packages (if that's how they do it) for those of us in the 30-38 bracket will be considerably lower.
7-8000 is likely to be the cut.
FJ IPS will immediately reduce from 60 to 30 per year
Those expecting FRI next year..don't order that new car yet, it's being looked at by the bean counters...why pay FRI's when we need to shed people?
PA spine is getting VERY competetive..see above. Currently numbers are at 450 of the 600 ish the treasury capped the numbers at....
redudancy packages will be very specifically targeted for individuals within specific trade groups.
7 - 8 Super Stations instead of the 75 stations we currently run (Aldergrove?????)
Nimrod MR4a is here to stay..numbers unknown.
200k for an untrained front-ender...v unlikely. The redundacy packages (if that's how they do it) for those of us in the 30-38 bracket will be considerably lower.
Hueymeister
Heard very similar figures over dinner with a 'friend in the know' the other night. His quote was 12 stations to be the core of the service. Didn't mention anything about personnel downsizing too specifically except for a similar number to the 7-8K you mention.
Those dreaming of 200K had better start doing the lottery. Those aged 30-38 had better start studying for external jobs or doing an ATPL because it'll be targeted to specifc competences - now that PMA have job specs for all (unlike the mid 90s package) targeting redundancy won't be too difficult for the HR guys.
Heard very similar figures over dinner with a 'friend in the know' the other night. His quote was 12 stations to be the core of the service. Didn't mention anything about personnel downsizing too specifically except for a similar number to the 7-8K you mention.
Those dreaming of 200K had better start doing the lottery. Those aged 30-38 had better start studying for external jobs or doing an ATPL because it'll be targeted to specifc competences - now that PMA have job specs for all (unlike the mid 90s package) targeting redundancy won't be too difficult for the HR guys.
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If anyone out there honestly believes that the top brass will offer 200K to any of you nu bees @ Linton you are so sadly mistaken. Unfortunately you are owed nothing and will get........... have a guess?! Guys on frontline squadrons at the right age may be offered a couple of quid but 200k DREAM ON!!!!
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I have also had some good gen from someone "in the know" in the last couple of days, and the gen I got concurs with what sangiovese and hueymeister have to say. I'm afraid the guys in the training system at the current time are up for a much worse shafting even than those of us who did 3 years of holding in the bad old days of the early 90's.
If you have aspirations for other careers outside the RAF then I would start dusting off the CV pretty soon, and I am afraid to say that the others are right, any rumours of 200K are greatly exagerated, there may be some small amount of compensation but it won't be much.
Rampmonkey - you obviously know nothing about the Nimrod or its role, or it's future. If you did some research you would discover that the Kinloss crews are busier than ever doing stuff completely unrelated to submarines. It is here to stay. Whether it is Mk2 for a lot longer, or Mk4 we will find out shortly......
If you have aspirations for other careers outside the RAF then I would start dusting off the CV pretty soon, and I am afraid to say that the others are right, any rumours of 200K are greatly exagerated, there may be some small amount of compensation but it won't be much.
Rampmonkey - you obviously know nothing about the Nimrod or its role, or it's future. If you did some research you would discover that the Kinloss crews are busier than ever doing stuff completely unrelated to submarines. It is here to stay. Whether it is Mk2 for a lot longer, or Mk4 we will find out shortly......
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Controversial possibly, but promotion to Sqn Ldr will see you through to 55... (harder to stay flying admittedly, but might be a better option than not flying at all).
Won't suit everybody, but I could well see a number of people adding to secondary duties in order not to have to compete for a spot on the PA spine.
If we're trying to save money, and we have the right mix of experience at the moment, then why take on someone onto the PA spine when we could pay for 2 more junior pilots instead?
SBW
Won't suit everybody, but I could well see a number of people adding to secondary duties in order not to have to compete for a spot on the PA spine.
If we're trying to save money, and we have the right mix of experience at the moment, then why take on someone onto the PA spine when we could pay for 2 more junior pilots instead?
SBW
I am interested to know what our legal rights are under employment law. A person in a "normal" occupation has an open ended arrangement up to retirement. If their employer wishes to make their postion redundant, I believe that the statutory redundancy payment is 1.5 weeks pay per year service. Officers on a PC have a fixed contract up to age 38, at which point they are discharged (unless offered a further contract by means of promotion/PA). What happens if the MoD wish to break that contract by compulsory redundancy? Do they have to pay compensation for the broken contract, or are they simply liable for the "regular" statutory minimum?
I also seem to recall that it is actually the job that is made redundant and not the person. This would seemingly make it illegal to make pilots (for example) redundant whilst simultaneously recruiting for the same trade. In the "real" world an employer has to wait 6 months before taking on a new person to fill a post that had previously been made redundant. Making older, more costly, staff redundant whilst recruiting younger cheaper employees to do the same job is illegal. Isn't it? Maybe we could get our UAVs flown from a call centre in India.
Any shop stewards out there?
I also seem to recall that it is actually the job that is made redundant and not the person. This would seemingly make it illegal to make pilots (for example) redundant whilst simultaneously recruiting for the same trade. In the "real" world an employer has to wait 6 months before taking on a new person to fill a post that had previously been made redundant. Making older, more costly, staff redundant whilst recruiting younger cheaper employees to do the same job is illegal. Isn't it? Maybe we could get our UAVs flown from a call centre in India.
Any shop stewards out there?
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When I can get out at a months notice, then I will believe that we have rights anywhere near that of any civilian employment post.
Until that day, get used to a one way contract in which those who wish to resign have to stay, and those who wish to stay will be on their way with little to show for their trouble.
Unfair? Cause it is, but it go`s with the shilling and it will take someone with the balls to go to Europe kicking and screaming to set a precendent. Or perhaps it wont because the MOD rarely allows a precedent to be set when an out of court settlement will do.
In the early 90s several nav students were pilots without portfolio, having not been chopped but `rerouted`.
I wonder if the Nav/Pilot retreads already in the `system` will remain there:
Until that day, get used to a one way contract in which those who wish to resign have to stay, and those who wish to stay will be on their way with little to show for their trouble.
Unfair? Cause it is, but it go`s with the shilling and it will take someone with the balls to go to Europe kicking and screaming to set a precendent. Or perhaps it wont because the MOD rarely allows a precedent to be set when an out of court settlement will do.
In the early 90s several nav students were pilots without portfolio, having not been chopped but `rerouted`.
I wonder if the Nav/Pilot retreads already in the `system` will remain there:
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Are they seriously getting rid of a load of us?
If they do and they break the rules mentioned above it is called constructive dismissal (I am reliably informed) and the max payout is 45k (soon to go up). However, HMG probably has some exemption. Does anyone actually know what forces redundancy is worth in cash or am I going to be homeless and jobless with only 4 weeks' pay in my pocket (three years service)?
If they do and they break the rules mentioned above it is called constructive dismissal (I am reliably informed) and the max payout is 45k (soon to go up). However, HMG probably has some exemption. Does anyone actually know what forces redundancy is worth in cash or am I going to be homeless and jobless with only 4 weeks' pay in my pocket (three years service)?
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I wouldn't worry about it too much Flash. At the very least they'll give you a ground job. Not good I know but better than being homeless and jobless. From there, you could plan for ATPL's etc.
I am reliably informed that it would not be construed as 'contructive dismissal' - apparently it doesn't apply to the Armed Forces.
If you think that you're being shafted after 3 years of service, you'd be amazed to learn how some people with over 30 years service have been treated in the past.....
Investors in People. Yeah, right...
If you think that you're being shafted after 3 years of service, you'd be amazed to learn how some people with over 30 years service have been treated in the past.....
Investors in People. Yeah, right...
Champagne anyone...?
When they pack us all off on the Sunshine Variety Club Coach with £4.50 in our pockets and a letter of thanks from the driver to the PSO to the AOC, what are our rights with regard to pension entitlements?
Do you still get your 16/38 lump sum and pension (3 years left at the mo) on top of any redundancy payoff?
Do you still get your 16/38 lump sum and pension (3 years left at the mo) on top of any redundancy payoff?
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Brain Potter
I am afraid that you do not have any "rights" under employment law as such, if you are a serving member of the forces and you are also incorrect in stating that Officers (or anybody else in HMF) have a "contract".
In the past they have paid more than the statutory legal minimum for those made redundant. The Sim Techs (L Tech ST) did rather well when their trade was dis-established in the mid 90's. I do not think that level of "compensation"could happen again in the current financial climate. Indeed the Air Eng branch was told at at working group meeting 2 years ago that any future redundancies would be to the statutory minimum. We were also told that we could be offered another job within the service. If you refuse to take that job, you are NOT then made redundant!!
Yozzers position is most accurate. Unfair but It has never been any other way!!
Beagle is absolutely correct in that the law specifically excludes constructive dismissal from applying to the Armed Forces.
Stop Start -
Don't know about the pension entitlements but can tell you that simtechs who were in for 22 years but made redundant at say 16 years, got 16/22ths of the pension they would have had.
The pension thing is changing so fast these days!!
And no I am not a shop steward, merely someone who has spent some cash on an expensive employment law specialist. He was a guy who helped the pregnant women get their compensation as it happens. He also assisted my exit from the Air Farce in under 6 months as I had a job to go too as well as ensuring that those of us on reserved rights didn't get shafted after pay 2000. Nice try that one PMA!!
He summed things up thus..
"When dealing with the MOD, and that is who you are employed by, there is no level playing field. We know, Judges know and they know that they continually break the law, but the wheels of justice will grind you down long before the MOD"
Good luck everybody
TG
I am afraid that you do not have any "rights" under employment law as such, if you are a serving member of the forces and you are also incorrect in stating that Officers (or anybody else in HMF) have a "contract".
In the past they have paid more than the statutory legal minimum for those made redundant. The Sim Techs (L Tech ST) did rather well when their trade was dis-established in the mid 90's. I do not think that level of "compensation"could happen again in the current financial climate. Indeed the Air Eng branch was told at at working group meeting 2 years ago that any future redundancies would be to the statutory minimum. We were also told that we could be offered another job within the service. If you refuse to take that job, you are NOT then made redundant!!
Yozzers position is most accurate. Unfair but It has never been any other way!!
Beagle is absolutely correct in that the law specifically excludes constructive dismissal from applying to the Armed Forces.
Stop Start -
Don't know about the pension entitlements but can tell you that simtechs who were in for 22 years but made redundant at say 16 years, got 16/22ths of the pension they would have had.
The pension thing is changing so fast these days!!
And no I am not a shop steward, merely someone who has spent some cash on an expensive employment law specialist. He was a guy who helped the pregnant women get their compensation as it happens. He also assisted my exit from the Air Farce in under 6 months as I had a job to go too as well as ensuring that those of us on reserved rights didn't get shafted after pay 2000. Nice try that one PMA!!
He summed things up thus..
"When dealing with the MOD, and that is who you are employed by, there is no level playing field. We know, Judges know and they know that they continually break the law, but the wheels of justice will grind you down long before the MOD"
Good luck everybody
TG
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We were also told that we could be offered another job within the service. If you refuse to take that job, you are NOT then made redundant
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Yes quite, on the outside that would be reasonable but if your not on the outside then reasonable doesn't come into to it!!
When I was on the inside, that's what was on offer, a one time leap in the dark proposition. Bit like NCA PAS!!
When I was on the inside, that's what was on offer, a one time leap in the dark proposition. Bit like NCA PAS!!