F4 Phantom
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Got to keep posting here until the thread gets the sticky status it deserves!
I have memories of a sharp F4 QWI student navigator back in circa '70 who had remembered well the rule that no kills counted in the combat phase unless they were subsequently confirmed by film. Well, on the first engagement they claimed a kill and disengaged with a little negative G that resulted in a double Hyd fail - with no control they immediately ejected. Their jet obviously recovered at least one system because it flew around for some 18 minutes before impacting the sea not far from where they were plucked out of the water by the rescue chopper. When dropped later at Coningsby, the Navigator retrieved a very wet radar film cassette from his immersion suit pocket and slapped it in my hand claiming "There's my kill".
Good one Jack
I have memories of a sharp F4 QWI student navigator back in circa '70 who had remembered well the rule that no kills counted in the combat phase unless they were subsequently confirmed by film. Well, on the first engagement they claimed a kill and disengaged with a little negative G that resulted in a double Hyd fail - with no control they immediately ejected. Their jet obviously recovered at least one system because it flew around for some 18 minutes before impacting the sea not far from where they were plucked out of the water by the rescue chopper. When dropped later at Coningsby, the Navigator retrieved a very wet radar film cassette from his immersion suit pocket and slapped it in my hand claiming "There's my kill".
Good one Jack
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Jagsplash driver
Overstress,
Totally agree; he was a fine chap and a very good pilot. Flew with him once on the F4 OCU and knew the nav as well from a previous sqn at ISL.
An apocryphal story from that day was that when they returned to the mess for a much-needed sharpener or three after claiming their kill, there was a free barrel on in the bar. When enquiring as to the reason for this largess, said donor of barrel said "Oh it's on me, I've just joined 'The Caterpillar Club'". Crew riposte is not of printable sort!
Totally agree; he was a fine chap and a very good pilot. Flew with him once on the F4 OCU and knew the nav as well from a previous sqn at ISL.
An apocryphal story from that day was that when they returned to the mess for a much-needed sharpener or three after claiming their kill, there was a free barrel on in the bar. When enquiring as to the reason for this largess, said donor of barrel said "Oh it's on me, I've just joined 'The Caterpillar Club'". Crew riposte is not of printable sort!
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Another apocryphal tale 'circa 69 when the engines were not lasting 5 minutes came from Jim McRoberts RIP who was one of several instructors grounded that day until serviceability improved.
"You know, for years I thought I was getting the *hitty end of the stick but now they've taken the stick away!"
Might be relevant to a few more aircrew soon, sadly.
"You know, for years I thought I was getting the *hitty end of the stick but now they've taken the stick away!"
Might be relevant to a few more aircrew soon, sadly.
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Bob Prest does/did fly for Gulf Air. When in SOAF (now RAFO) he flew Jaguars, not Strikies. He ejected from a Jaguar in circumstances I will not discuss and was dragged a long way across the desert, on which he scraped large quantites of his flying kit and skin. When it re-grew it was rather pink and we put him on a diet of drinking chocolate and the occasional Guiness, to restore the proper colour. If any of you have seen John Walmsley's excellent photo history of the F4 OCU you may recall that at the bottom of each page there was an extract from the 'Line Book'. IMHO the best one related to an US Marine major who turned up for AOCs (as it was then called) in full uniform and medals; one nav was heard to say to another "Look out, here comes Magnetic North"! Happy days, apart from Bill and Doctor Death! I also have an excellent story about Al Vosloo if anyone wants it posted? Relates to the use of Service telephones to make calls home when delayed at work night flying etc.
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Come on, A2QFI, let's have the story on big Al.
I think you could have been a bit unkind lumping Doctor Death with Bas*ard Bill - he showed lots of loyalty downwards even if he seldom appeared to watch the arrows in their Gnats. Rumour was that he evaluated the Gnat and wrote that it would never be a good formation aircraft! Well, to err is human.
I think you could have been a bit unkind lumping Doctor Death with Bas*ard Bill - he showed lots of loyalty downwards even if he seldom appeared to watch the arrows in their Gnats. Rumour was that he evaluated the Gnat and wrote that it would never be a good formation aircraft! Well, to err is human.
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Before it's too late
A number of threads on this outstanding web-site run to 30+ pages, each one full of first-rate prose and not a little humour. Some of the smaller threads have equally gripping stories as well as current situations where information or experiences are requested.
The excellent Vulcan thread started by BEagle is a prime example, the 1 Group Dining-In Night had me in stitches from page one, the Canberra thread made me recall my first flight in an RAF jet and this one, the F4, has filled in a few blanks in my memory. There are still some gaps in it, though.
ABIW and SPHLC are two contributors who have a future assured when they hang up their blue-suits, and the husband of the author of "Married to Albert" must be particularly chuffed, not least for the fact that Jilly Cooper is mentioned in the same breath. Not sure that follows, but you get my drift.
I know that Archimedes has, at the behest of a BBC lady, started to pull together the history of the Vulcan. This can only be a good thing, but what nags at me, is that there must be an awful lot more that can be brought forward.
I guess this is really a plea to the moderators to put in place some kind of catch-all that will allow some of the best and funniest contributions to be collected and mayhap to be printed for the benefit of, say the RAF Benevolent Fund. I would willingly pay money to read them in a more relaxed environment, rather than screw my aging eyes up to the screen.
I have no idea of the laws of copyright, the evidence of hearsay, the libel/slander actions that may take place - all I know is that this is the best value web-site that I have ever encountered!
My apologies if this has been mooted before, but with all the bad press from the Treasury about defence cuts, allied to Teflon-Tone indiscriminately committing our Forces to "Wars'R'Us" this might be a way of raising awareness of just what HM Forces have done, and are still doing, despite the best efforts of the un-Civil Servants of MoD.
The excellent Vulcan thread started by BEagle is a prime example, the 1 Group Dining-In Night had me in stitches from page one, the Canberra thread made me recall my first flight in an RAF jet and this one, the F4, has filled in a few blanks in my memory. There are still some gaps in it, though.
ABIW and SPHLC are two contributors who have a future assured when they hang up their blue-suits, and the husband of the author of "Married to Albert" must be particularly chuffed, not least for the fact that Jilly Cooper is mentioned in the same breath. Not sure that follows, but you get my drift.
I know that Archimedes has, at the behest of a BBC lady, started to pull together the history of the Vulcan. This can only be a good thing, but what nags at me, is that there must be an awful lot more that can be brought forward.
I guess this is really a plea to the moderators to put in place some kind of catch-all that will allow some of the best and funniest contributions to be collected and mayhap to be printed for the benefit of, say the RAF Benevolent Fund. I would willingly pay money to read them in a more relaxed environment, rather than screw my aging eyes up to the screen.
I have no idea of the laws of copyright, the evidence of hearsay, the libel/slander actions that may take place - all I know is that this is the best value web-site that I have ever encountered!
My apologies if this has been mooted before, but with all the bad press from the Treasury about defence cuts, allied to Teflon-Tone indiscriminately committing our Forces to "Wars'R'Us" this might be a way of raising awareness of just what HM Forces have done, and are still doing, despite the best efforts of the un-Civil Servants of MoD.
228 OCU History
A2QFI - don't ever say 'John Walmsley's history of 228 OCU' - it was produced by Gordoon Moulds, who later produced a similarly excellent book on 226 OCU when it operated the mighty Lightning.
Gordon was laid up after ejecting from the aircraft in which Dave Nelson died (I was alongside as it happened) and it formed the start of his considerable fundraising for charity, for which he was rightly awarded the MBE
Gordon was laid up after ejecting from the aircraft in which Dave Nelson died (I was alongside as it happened) and it formed the start of his considerable fundraising for charity, for which he was rightly awarded the MBE
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St Athan - summer of '87
I've mentioned it before, but the mighty beast appearing from between the hangars, then standing on its tail on full burner, in a clear blue sky, all the way to 23000 feet, then off to Germany, still sticks firmly in my mind.
Cranwell, March 1987
I also remember, one cold march evening, having been put on restrictions for something pretty bad ( didn't dust behind the 'u' bend on my sink before brasso, I think) I was stood out on the front of College Hall, with some other recidivists. A Phantom came in from the right, lit his burners, then powered away into the dark, night sky.
In union, all we could say was "Oooh!"
That was the first time I actually saw those funny little pulses in a reheat exhaust for real. Up until then, I had always presumed them to be a trick of the camera.
The stories of these beasts up near 100,000 feet make remarkable reading too.
Great, proper aircraft. Sky much duller with its passing. Are there any flying anywhere at all anymore. Surely Mike Beachyhead has one lined up?
I've mentioned it before, but the mighty beast appearing from between the hangars, then standing on its tail on full burner, in a clear blue sky, all the way to 23000 feet, then off to Germany, still sticks firmly in my mind.
Cranwell, March 1987
I also remember, one cold march evening, having been put on restrictions for something pretty bad ( didn't dust behind the 'u' bend on my sink before brasso, I think) I was stood out on the front of College Hall, with some other recidivists. A Phantom came in from the right, lit his burners, then powered away into the dark, night sky.
In union, all we could say was "Oooh!"
That was the first time I actually saw those funny little pulses in a reheat exhaust for real. Up until then, I had always presumed them to be a trick of the camera.
The stories of these beasts up near 100,000 feet make remarkable reading too.
Great, proper aircraft. Sky much duller with its passing. Are there any flying anywhere at all anymore. Surely Mike Beachyhead has one lined up?
Saw it at the Flying Supervisors' Course - lowest measured height was 72 ft!
But the lowest I saw was a mates-in-confidence video which one of the guys had at the EWO course of a 1312 Flt Phantom 'saying hello' to Alice!
But the lowest I saw was a mates-in-confidence video which one of the guys had at the EWO course of a 1312 Flt Phantom 'saying hello' to Alice!
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MEASLES!
Ah yes Beagle, that would be the only ever attempted landing at Alice by a fixed wing ac!
Watched a few 'measles', low and slow was always most spectacular for those on the ground, but when a Phantom disappears from sight sinking rapidly below the edge of the hill, whilst still nose up, it is a huge relief to then see it recover and pull away (alledgedly!).
Watched a few 'measles', low and slow was always most spectacular for those on the ground, but when a Phantom disappears from sight sinking rapidly below the edge of the hill, whilst still nose up, it is a huge relief to then see it recover and pull away (alledgedly!).
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Sorry if I have offended anyone by saying that John Walmsley put together the F-4 photo book. I understood that, when the OCU was disbanded at Leuchars and at short notice, the photo record was put together, sponsored by BAe, and that JW was the man who pulled it together. If someone else was responsible I apologise.
The Al Vosloo story (briefly) was that aircrew were not permitted to make calls to home from work (even if they paid the cost of the call) as OC Elec Eng said that his staff weren't established to fill in chits for officer's mess bils etc. One was also not allowed to go to the Mess in flying kit to make a call from the payphone there and getting out of a goon suit to go to the mess to tell one's wife one was going to be late for dinner and then get back into it was a pain.
The off station call out system involved 2 officers (one of them the great Vosloo) being telephoned by Ops and told to initiate a call out; these 2 then rang 2 more and thus the word got round. One morning at about 0200 Vos got a call saying "Initiate call out - Exercise Dimwit" or whatever. He replied "S*d off, this is a private telephone and I don't take Service calls on it" - unplugged it from the socket and went back to sleep. Half the aircrew on the base came in at the normal time and were thus about 5 hours late for the exercise! What a pity, what a shame!
The Al Vosloo story (briefly) was that aircrew were not permitted to make calls to home from work (even if they paid the cost of the call) as OC Elec Eng said that his staff weren't established to fill in chits for officer's mess bils etc. One was also not allowed to go to the Mess in flying kit to make a call from the payphone there and getting out of a goon suit to go to the mess to tell one's wife one was going to be late for dinner and then get back into it was a pain.
The off station call out system involved 2 officers (one of them the great Vosloo) being telephoned by Ops and told to initiate a call out; these 2 then rang 2 more and thus the word got round. One morning at about 0200 Vos got a call saying "Initiate call out - Exercise Dimwit" or whatever. He replied "S*d off, this is a private telephone and I don't take Service calls on it" - unplugged it from the socket and went back to sleep. Half the aircrew on the base came in at the normal time and were thus about 5 hours late for the exercise! What a pity, what a shame!
OK, this is my longest post to date!
The F4 was my first aircraft after passing out of Halton as a young LAC Rigger in 1977. I was posted to 23 Sqn which was then 'boltholed' at RAF Wethersfield from Wattisham. It was, obviously, my first taste of real aircraft maintenance, flight line servicing and squadron life. And I couldn't have picked a better aircraft or squadron to cut my teeth on.
Everything that I now take for granted I learnt during my time on the F4.
I learnt strange words like: Houchin, Liney, OTR, Fairies, Plumbers, Sooties, Growbags, Koch, 'Leckies, Squawk Box, Wobbly Orange, Jammer, QRA, TACEVAL, MAXEVAL... the list is endless, but you get my drift.
I learnt all about detachment rules, how to speed-eat (especially at supper time), how to fit a drag chute and not catch my nipple in the door whilst trying to close the bl**dy door and pull the T-handle at the same time, how to put out a starter fire with just my woolly-hat, how to free a stuck arrestor hook during a crew-in with just a marshalling bat (very hot and dodgy!), how to stamp rounds into the links ready for loading the gun (not my trade but everybody seemed to join in especially during APC), again the list is endless.
I remember sitting around outside the line hut during summer air defence exercises waiting for the line sgt to shout scramble, and then running like mad to get to the aircraft first. During one of these at Wethersfield I seem to remember being passed by a pilot or navigator on a bike. 'What a good idea', I thought, until his PEC got caught in the rear wheel and he fell off in a crumpled heap. I didn't know whether to stop and help or continue running to my aircraft...I continued running!
23 sqn also gave me my first taste of QRA. There wasn't much in the way of entertainment then, certainly no video games or the like, so we played Uckers for hours interspersed with setting fire to people who had made the mistake of falling asleep! You were also almost guaranteed at least one live scramble to make it all worthwhile. At first I thought these scramble starts were just sheer panic but slowly (after getting the hang of them) I realised that they were well organised panics and everyone had their own part to play. This didn't stop us from (at least) once sending off Q1 with all the Noddy caps still on though. It took an awful lot of strength to pull them off after the sortie!
I remember my first APC detachment in the Med, it was hot, hard, non-stop work and there seemed to be a never ending queue of Phantoms waiting to be OTR'd.
I also learnt the noble art of riggering on the Phantom. I learnt that drilled out rivet tails, if not retrieved from within the flaps or ailerons make a lot of messy dents in the skin when they vibrate and bang around at Mach 2!
I learnt that the rear canopy will jettison if you forget to bypass one of the cartridges during canopy jettison checks. It makes an impressive bang and goes an even more impressive long way as well! I learnt how to wire-lock whilst hanging upside down, how to drill and easy-out stuck screws, how to leap up on to the wing using the Fletcher tank, how to hang on to the folded outer wing in the wind and the rain without dropping it onto the heads of my fellow riggers below. I learnt so many things and got to know the F4 inside out.
It was a strong ac and took a lot of punishment. I also think it was the noisiest although the Tornado intake noise is quite bad. I can recall being on the outside during reheat engine runs and feeling my body organs move. Your 'mates' would try to push your ear defenders against the fuselage so that your brain would physically vibrate in your skull! If it was during the evening or night we would stand behind the blast deflector vanes on the sheepdip and watch the reheat light up, it was a fantastic sight!
It was somewhere amongst all this that I realised that I had definitely made the right decision when I walked into the CIO.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.
Those are just a few of my memories of the Phantom and I hope I never lose them.
The F4 was my first aircraft after passing out of Halton as a young LAC Rigger in 1977. I was posted to 23 Sqn which was then 'boltholed' at RAF Wethersfield from Wattisham. It was, obviously, my first taste of real aircraft maintenance, flight line servicing and squadron life. And I couldn't have picked a better aircraft or squadron to cut my teeth on.
Everything that I now take for granted I learnt during my time on the F4.
I learnt strange words like: Houchin, Liney, OTR, Fairies, Plumbers, Sooties, Growbags, Koch, 'Leckies, Squawk Box, Wobbly Orange, Jammer, QRA, TACEVAL, MAXEVAL... the list is endless, but you get my drift.
I learnt all about detachment rules, how to speed-eat (especially at supper time), how to fit a drag chute and not catch my nipple in the door whilst trying to close the bl**dy door and pull the T-handle at the same time, how to put out a starter fire with just my woolly-hat, how to free a stuck arrestor hook during a crew-in with just a marshalling bat (very hot and dodgy!), how to stamp rounds into the links ready for loading the gun (not my trade but everybody seemed to join in especially during APC), again the list is endless.
I remember sitting around outside the line hut during summer air defence exercises waiting for the line sgt to shout scramble, and then running like mad to get to the aircraft first. During one of these at Wethersfield I seem to remember being passed by a pilot or navigator on a bike. 'What a good idea', I thought, until his PEC got caught in the rear wheel and he fell off in a crumpled heap. I didn't know whether to stop and help or continue running to my aircraft...I continued running!
23 sqn also gave me my first taste of QRA. There wasn't much in the way of entertainment then, certainly no video games or the like, so we played Uckers for hours interspersed with setting fire to people who had made the mistake of falling asleep! You were also almost guaranteed at least one live scramble to make it all worthwhile. At first I thought these scramble starts were just sheer panic but slowly (after getting the hang of them) I realised that they were well organised panics and everyone had their own part to play. This didn't stop us from (at least) once sending off Q1 with all the Noddy caps still on though. It took an awful lot of strength to pull them off after the sortie!
I remember my first APC detachment in the Med, it was hot, hard, non-stop work and there seemed to be a never ending queue of Phantoms waiting to be OTR'd.
I also learnt the noble art of riggering on the Phantom. I learnt that drilled out rivet tails, if not retrieved from within the flaps or ailerons make a lot of messy dents in the skin when they vibrate and bang around at Mach 2!
I learnt that the rear canopy will jettison if you forget to bypass one of the cartridges during canopy jettison checks. It makes an impressive bang and goes an even more impressive long way as well! I learnt how to wire-lock whilst hanging upside down, how to drill and easy-out stuck screws, how to leap up on to the wing using the Fletcher tank, how to hang on to the folded outer wing in the wind and the rain without dropping it onto the heads of my fellow riggers below. I learnt so many things and got to know the F4 inside out.
It was a strong ac and took a lot of punishment. I also think it was the noisiest although the Tornado intake noise is quite bad. I can recall being on the outside during reheat engine runs and feeling my body organs move. Your 'mates' would try to push your ear defenders against the fuselage so that your brain would physically vibrate in your skull! If it was during the evening or night we would stand behind the blast deflector vanes on the sheepdip and watch the reheat light up, it was a fantastic sight!
It was somewhere amongst all this that I realised that I had definitely made the right decision when I walked into the CIO.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.
Those are just a few of my memories of the Phantom and I hope I never lose them.
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Interesting post, Dark Helmet. Didn't realise in all those years I flew the Toom how much enjoyment the groundcrew got out of the job - I always got the impression that it was a bitch to service but perhaps that was the stock excuse for late rectification work!
It was certainly a challenging aircraft to fly well in all its' roles and air-to-air with the fixed sight in the C model was a classic case where only seaman's eye worked although the stick and rudders had to be stirred a bit during the burst to guarantee a hit on the dart. Bombing, rocketing and strafe with the fixed depressable sight also needed lots of skill (and a bit of luck) and in those days a good score was more to do with the crew than the kit.
A radar that showed raw plots in relative velocity also gave the crew a challenge in interpretation. Todays' picture giving range, aspect and TCA leaves little excuse for screwing up an intercept.
A mans' aeroplane - sorry girls but you didn't fly Tooms.
It was certainly a challenging aircraft to fly well in all its' roles and air-to-air with the fixed sight in the C model was a classic case where only seaman's eye worked although the stick and rudders had to be stirred a bit during the burst to guarantee a hit on the dart. Bombing, rocketing and strafe with the fixed depressable sight also needed lots of skill (and a bit of luck) and in those days a good score was more to do with the crew than the kit.
A radar that showed raw plots in relative velocity also gave the crew a challenge in interpretation. Todays' picture giving range, aspect and TCA leaves little excuse for screwing up an intercept.
A mans' aeroplane - sorry girls but you didn't fly Tooms.
Right on Helmetman
Burnt hands from the stab feel probe; stabbed in the back by Sparrow fins; no knees in your trousers.... that reminds me of another story.
Cobra lineys were forever griefed by Wildenrath's RAF Admin folk, who took particular dislike to the lack of toe caps and worn through knees which were de "rigger" when most of your shift was spent running around the HAS on your knees.
One particular Admin SGT took up his case with the Cobra WOman. The WOman invited him to come along to APC at Akrotiri to find out just why Toom lineys have no toecaps on their shoes or knees in their trousers.
As the days progressed the Admin SGT began to grow a heart and threw himself into helping out on the line. Unfortunately many lineys had been on the end of the SGT's wrath and having jankered their way through the mess tin room etc were not quite ready to let bygones be bygones. The SGT insisted on helping load the gun with 1000 rounds. Now that's not an easy task for a fit young fella let alone a chap in his early '50's, particularly in the heat of the Med. Sarge sits himself down by the gun as shown by the liney and uses his feet to brace himself against it. He starts to wind the handle as the liney feeds the rounds in from the other side. Unfortunately this particular liney had a very big score to settle. As Sarge heaved on the winding handle the liney heaved back on the ammo belt until a loud popping sound was heard. This was not a mechanical pop, more an anatomical pop, as Sarge ruptured himself.
Endex for Sarge as he was medevac'd back to Wegberg.
Needless to say having no toecaps or raggedy knees was never quite the heinous crime it once was
.
Burnt hands from the stab feel probe; stabbed in the back by Sparrow fins; no knees in your trousers.... that reminds me of another story.
Cobra lineys were forever griefed by Wildenrath's RAF Admin folk, who took particular dislike to the lack of toe caps and worn through knees which were de "rigger" when most of your shift was spent running around the HAS on your knees.
One particular Admin SGT took up his case with the Cobra WOman. The WOman invited him to come along to APC at Akrotiri to find out just why Toom lineys have no toecaps on their shoes or knees in their trousers.
As the days progressed the Admin SGT began to grow a heart and threw himself into helping out on the line. Unfortunately many lineys had been on the end of the SGT's wrath and having jankered their way through the mess tin room etc were not quite ready to let bygones be bygones. The SGT insisted on helping load the gun with 1000 rounds. Now that's not an easy task for a fit young fella let alone a chap in his early '50's, particularly in the heat of the Med. Sarge sits himself down by the gun as shown by the liney and uses his feet to brace himself against it. He starts to wind the handle as the liney feeds the rounds in from the other side. Unfortunately this particular liney had a very big score to settle. As Sarge heaved on the winding handle the liney heaved back on the ammo belt until a loud popping sound was heard. This was not a mechanical pop, more an anatomical pop, as Sarge ruptured himself.
Endex for Sarge as he was medevac'd back to Wegberg.
Needless to say having no toecaps or raggedy knees was never quite the heinous crime it once was
.
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A man's aeroplane indeed but this girly managed to blag a lift in the back of one in 1981 - I was the 43(F) squadron ops girly and it was my last detachment to Akrotiri before I got promoted. My parachute drill consisted of watching several still-pi$$ed-from- the-night-before navs jumping off the table in the crew room. Then off Ian Dugmore, XT866 (subsequently crashed on approach at Leuchars, I got the blame for upending my handbag in the back) and I went. Burner climb in a clean-winger (even some of the navs hadn't done that, ooooh they were jealous!), PD to Larnaca, chased a Canberra around, went supersonic and then 600kts along the coast at a couple of feet. Over 20 years ago and I still recall it like it was yesterday. I spent 10 years at Leuchars/Coningsby and have loved F4s with a passion ever since. In fact I've just hung up my headset after 27 years as an air trafficker, and the last thing I did was take my F4 pin off my headset where it had resided for a long, long time. Definitely my favourite aircraft.