Fighter Controllers?
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Can't let this one go guys.
Having taught both FCs, Navs and AEOps on the SCC at Waddo I can say without reservation that they all bring something useful to the party. Without wanting to sound pompous, the UK Sentry fleet is the best in the world BECAUSE of its diverse manning structure.
As to the 'legitimacy' or otherwise of FC and AT brevets, these guys and gals do not get their BREVETS simply for 6 months work, they get them for 6 months work on top of the years of proffesional training and experience that has fitted them to their roles on the E3.
It is important to be aware that the job on the Sentry, while no harder or complex than many other airborne missions, is a very specific role, and as such, needs manning (in some areas) by people with different skills to more 'traditional' aircrew. Navs and AEOps do not have the skills for instance, to conduct AD ac control, nor CAS ac control, nor the direction of jamming and surveillance ac and (outside of the RN and possibly F3 fleets) only FCs have an in-depth knowledge of data links. They've been using them for 20 years. This is not to suggest that more 'traditional' aircrew do not bring other (equally valid) skills of course.
I fully expect people to reply with arguments citing VASTAC and FAC etc. These are not valid comparisons, and only further demonstrate the widely shared lack of knowledge about the Sentry's role.
FCs and ATs fully deserve their BREVETS, and are the only people for the job. Discussions about whether or not they are 'aircrew' are semantics and demeen us.
I have no vested interest in the success of either FC or AT branches, and fly a very different ac.
Having taught both FCs, Navs and AEOps on the SCC at Waddo I can say without reservation that they all bring something useful to the party. Without wanting to sound pompous, the UK Sentry fleet is the best in the world BECAUSE of its diverse manning structure.
As to the 'legitimacy' or otherwise of FC and AT brevets, these guys and gals do not get their BREVETS simply for 6 months work, they get them for 6 months work on top of the years of proffesional training and experience that has fitted them to their roles on the E3.
It is important to be aware that the job on the Sentry, while no harder or complex than many other airborne missions, is a very specific role, and as such, needs manning (in some areas) by people with different skills to more 'traditional' aircrew. Navs and AEOps do not have the skills for instance, to conduct AD ac control, nor CAS ac control, nor the direction of jamming and surveillance ac and (outside of the RN and possibly F3 fleets) only FCs have an in-depth knowledge of data links. They've been using them for 20 years. This is not to suggest that more 'traditional' aircrew do not bring other (equally valid) skills of course.
I fully expect people to reply with arguments citing VASTAC and FAC etc. These are not valid comparisons, and only further demonstrate the widely shared lack of knowledge about the Sentry's role.
FCs and ATs fully deserve their BREVETS, and are the only people for the job. Discussions about whether or not they are 'aircrew' are semantics and demeen us.
I have no vested interest in the success of either FC or AT branches, and fly a very different ac.
TAC Int Bloke
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I wouldn't bite on this too much.......
I think you'll find Sandy Pit was only opening up a can of worms for comic effect to pass a dull det - stag on mate- as our army chums say
-Nick
I think you'll find Sandy Pit was only opening up a can of worms for comic effect to pass a dull det - stag on mate- as our army chums say
-Nick
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Left 1 OC
I am with you on this one.
My only whinge is the unfairness of the system, as pertaining to FC's (but that is NOT their fault)
Those of us who are 'professional full time aircrew' (for want of a better term) have all spent a MINIMUM of 1 years flying training. We have ALL done at least 2 recognised survival courses, and at the end of that, the guys STILL do not get their respective brevets until they have successfully completed their OCU etc. That is OK, and although I don't particularly agree with the need to complete an OCU before hand, if thats the rules - fine.
Where things fall down is that the FC's DO NOT spend at least 12 months at a flying school, they DO NOT complete 2 survival courses, but they DO get their brevets on completion of the SCC. That is wrong, and it is this that causes so much ill feeling (I know they subsequently do a sort of survival course, but hey so what!)
The other thing that gets peoples goat, is that when these FC's leave the fleet and go off back to a hole, they still RETAIN their flying pay! (well a lot do, maybe not all) We all know the case of the Fg Off FC who joined the fleet many years ago, who is now a Gp capt, and has yet to lose his Fg Pay!!
I have nothing against the FC world - the majority of them are great blokes and girls, and I had no qualms about flying with them. Their 'problem' is that someone high up is 'looking after' them too well, and it is causing a lot of ill feeling amongst the 'professional' aircrew No offence meant.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
I am with you on this one.
My only whinge is the unfairness of the system, as pertaining to FC's (but that is NOT their fault)
Those of us who are 'professional full time aircrew' (for want of a better term) have all spent a MINIMUM of 1 years flying training. We have ALL done at least 2 recognised survival courses, and at the end of that, the guys STILL do not get their respective brevets until they have successfully completed their OCU etc. That is OK, and although I don't particularly agree with the need to complete an OCU before hand, if thats the rules - fine.
Where things fall down is that the FC's DO NOT spend at least 12 months at a flying school, they DO NOT complete 2 survival courses, but they DO get their brevets on completion of the SCC. That is wrong, and it is this that causes so much ill feeling (I know they subsequently do a sort of survival course, but hey so what!)
The other thing that gets peoples goat, is that when these FC's leave the fleet and go off back to a hole, they still RETAIN their flying pay! (well a lot do, maybe not all) We all know the case of the Fg Off FC who joined the fleet many years ago, who is now a Gp capt, and has yet to lose his Fg Pay!!
I have nothing against the FC world - the majority of them are great blokes and girls, and I had no qualms about flying with them. Their 'problem' is that someone high up is 'looking after' them too well, and it is causing a lot of ill feeling amongst the 'professional' aircrew No offence meant.
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
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MadMark
couldn't agree more! Typically it can take 2 years to train a FC to combat ready status (this is continuation training once they are let loose on their own), meaning they can deal with any mission thrown at them. A SNCO WC has usually spent many years working in TG12 and has a good deal of experience.
It would appear that time spent at Cranwell on a course pales in comparison. In addtion to FCs the mob wants man managers and that takes know-how, not spotty herberts who join the ranks of the Mess.
We are in a fortunate position to have some very positive and caring characters in senior positions. In my 18 years in a blue suit these people have been a very refreshing change from the nest-feathering that can often occur.
Bites and giggles.
Viva la revolution.
couldn't agree more! Typically it can take 2 years to train a FC to combat ready status (this is continuation training once they are let loose on their own), meaning they can deal with any mission thrown at them. A SNCO WC has usually spent many years working in TG12 and has a good deal of experience.
It would appear that time spent at Cranwell on a course pales in comparison. In addtion to FCs the mob wants man managers and that takes know-how, not spotty herberts who join the ranks of the Mess.
We are in a fortunate position to have some very positive and caring characters in senior positions. In my 18 years in a blue suit these people have been a very refreshing change from the nest-feathering that can often occur.
Bites and giggles.
Viva la revolution.
At the end of the day, regardless of their time of training, these Guys In Back are highly trained professionals. They've achieved the standards required in their training, and their skills will improve with experience. They are valued members of a large team, and should be treated as such, in my opinion.
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Just a quick submission to stop a gross mis-understanding quoted by swinging monkey.
There is not a single FC on a ground tour getting FP. The instant an FC leaves a flying appointment the additional pay is stopped. If an FC is posted to a flying-related postwhich requires them to fly, they are only paid flying pay on the days they actually fly and then have to present their log books and have them countersigned. Innsworth always cock the pay up so most are very reluctant to go through the humilating and laborious process.
The FC branch does not have a single Gp Capt that has flown on E-3s. We have 4 Wg Cdrs with E-3 experience and these are all on ground tours and do not get FP.
Finally, the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support. If you were aware of some suggested or on-going "initiatives" from the powers that be you would feel deeply ashamed at the crassness of your comments. E-3 FC morale is low and falling. They might not be "professional full time aircrew" but they can still read the big writing on the walls, and it doesn't say make yourself welcome!!
There is not a single FC on a ground tour getting FP. The instant an FC leaves a flying appointment the additional pay is stopped. If an FC is posted to a flying-related postwhich requires them to fly, they are only paid flying pay on the days they actually fly and then have to present their log books and have them countersigned. Innsworth always cock the pay up so most are very reluctant to go through the humilating and laborious process.
The FC branch does not have a single Gp Capt that has flown on E-3s. We have 4 Wg Cdrs with E-3 experience and these are all on ground tours and do not get FP.
Finally, the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support. If you were aware of some suggested or on-going "initiatives" from the powers that be you would feel deeply ashamed at the crassness of your comments. E-3 FC morale is low and falling. They might not be "professional full time aircrew" but they can still read the big writing on the walls, and it doesn't say make yourself welcome!!
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To all the guys fighting the corner for FCs thanks..... As for the rest of the moaners out their you lot obviously do not understand what service we provide to multiple aircraft types (oh wait a moment, thats what you guys fly in isnt it???). This is not just the Controllers but the Surveillance half of the branch also, who after 6 months on the SCC can produce the the same high standard and in some cases better than the the professional aircrew types who have done 2 years professional flying training.... mmmmmmm does this tell you something???
Anyway, thats all from me.... just chill out folks.... oh and by the way if people ask what i doi reply 'im mission crew' and not aircrew if that makes you all feel better!!
Caio E70
Anyway, thats all from me.... just chill out folks.... oh and by the way if people ask what i doi reply 'im mission crew' and not aircrew if that makes you all feel better!!
Caio E70
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I was frequently very impressed with those dudes down at Yeovilton ('Freddie'?). Generally never that impressed with the AWACS controllers (but I don't know what kit limitations they have - I've never seen their kit, not that I'd know what good kit would look like if i saw it!). They're both generalisations of course - I know they each contain 'the good and the bad'.
I had a go FCing once (in a hole somewhere) and I made a complete balls of it. The real controller sat next to me was doing more hand (and foot I suppose) movements per second than I used to do in the fin during BFM. Ok, perhaps that says more about my BFM...
Does it really really matter how long a course was and if it's a brevet or a badge - I mean really? I've never really noticed people at work getting wrapped around the axle about it too much.
Wasn't there some banter a while back about an F3 nav going over to be a FC (or was it the other way round)?
MT
I had a go FCing once (in a hole somewhere) and I made a complete balls of it. The real controller sat next to me was doing more hand (and foot I suppose) movements per second than I used to do in the fin during BFM. Ok, perhaps that says more about my BFM...
Does it really really matter how long a course was and if it's a brevet or a badge - I mean really? I've never really noticed people at work getting wrapped around the axle about it too much.
Wasn't there some banter a while back about an F3 nav going over to be a FC (or was it the other way round)?
MT
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I cant believe the rubbish that has been posted on this thread. There are some very short memories can anybody remind me which RAF airframe has probably conducted more Ops than any other in recent times? I think you will find it is the E3D manned by FC's (and others). If any crew regardless of branch deserves to wear a brevet surely the E3D guys and girls are up there with the best.
Their tireless support of Ops proves that fact!! Dont forget we count you all in, and out again, providing the best support we can. At the end of the day, you can always operate without our support or then again just use a plain old E3A/B/C/F whose reputation speaks for its self. We may only do a six month conversion but our operational performance speaks for itself!!!
Their tireless support of Ops proves that fact!! Dont forget we count you all in, and out again, providing the best support we can. At the end of the day, you can always operate without our support or then again just use a plain old E3A/B/C/F whose reputation speaks for its self. We may only do a six month conversion but our operational performance speaks for itself!!!
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bc
I should have distinguished between the E3 types, my broad brush 'AWACS' line was, according to my hindsightoscope, prolly a 'bit' much of a generalisation.
Quote:
"Dont forget we count you all in, and out again, providing the best support we can."
I don't think many would argue with that statement. We are all on the same side (aren't we?).
MT
I should have distinguished between the E3 types, my broad brush 'AWACS' line was, according to my hindsightoscope, prolly a 'bit' much of a generalisation.
Quote:
"Dont forget we count you all in, and out again, providing the best support we can."
I don't think many would argue with that statement. We are all on the same side (aren't we?).
MT
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BC
ballsy response considering it's your first; gutsy handle too! At least we know the personal trauma that life on the E3 causes. Dare I say stuff the narrow minded clowns that treat GCI like s**t. Lost count of the amount of time I've waited and waited and waited for you know what.
Big focus on briefs/debriefs at the mo', if the sky-gods don't give a damn, what hope is there for us.
Rgds
PS - watch out for that rotary traffic!
ballsy response considering it's your first; gutsy handle too! At least we know the personal trauma that life on the E3 causes. Dare I say stuff the narrow minded clowns that treat GCI like s**t. Lost count of the amount of time I've waited and waited and waited for you know what.
Big focus on briefs/debriefs at the mo', if the sky-gods don't give a damn, what hope is there for us.
Rgds
PS - watch out for that rotary traffic!
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Never thought I'd find myself sticking up for the FC world, but as has been pointed out, to even get to Waddo they have to do upwards of 2yrs training then several tours and then they only get there if judged good enough to go - well that's the theory anyway.
Who cares what they wear, whether it's a badge or a brevet, they do a hard job well.
However if you really want to moan about un-earned brevets -
Whatabout the Int Corps getting a brevet for an 8 week attendance course on ASTOR. I know a few of them and they are chuffed to bits to get something aircrew work years for - they now think getting a brevet is easy. And they think that there will eventually be an Army Lt Col running 5 Sqn.
Comments, suggestions, explosions ........ How's that for throwing a hand grenade into the converation!!!
Who cares what they wear, whether it's a badge or a brevet, they do a hard job well.
However if you really want to moan about un-earned brevets -
Whatabout the Int Corps getting a brevet for an 8 week attendance course on ASTOR. I know a few of them and they are chuffed to bits to get something aircrew work years for - they now think getting a brevet is easy. And they think that there will eventually be an Army Lt Col running 5 Sqn.
Comments, suggestions, explosions ........ How's that for throwing a hand grenade into the converation!!!
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CC - nice post.
To all the FCs up at Waddo - say hi to the RN Sea King mate halfway through 23 - he is one of my ex studes and a top bloke with a smashing better half. Be kind to him and someone point out where Tampa Bay is - obviously his knowledge of geography needs addressing
To all the FCs up at Waddo - say hi to the RN Sea King mate halfway through 23 - he is one of my ex studes and a top bloke with a smashing better half. Be kind to him and someone point out where Tampa Bay is - obviously his knowledge of geography needs addressing
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round& round,
Have to agree with you on this one, as an outsider looking in on the FC branch I think that it is completely wrong that the majority of FC's that come to Waddington have to "give up" on further promotion and service due to the fact that if promoted to FS they are likely to get a ground posting, lose their flying pay and take a pay freeze due to the fact that they go from higher rate Sgt to low rate FS pay scale. What kind of a way is that to treat those that want to do well? Still, if you like living down a hole and enjoy 4 months in the Falklands on a regular basis perhaps it is not so bad.
Finally, the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support. If you were aware of some suggested or on-going "initiatives" from the powers that be you would feel deeply ashamed at the crassness of your comments. E-3 FC morale is low and falling. They might not be "professional full time aircrew" but they can still read the big writing on the walls, and it doesn't say make yourself welcome!!
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R & R
If what you say is NOW correct, then I retract my comments, however, during the 8 years or so I did on the fleet, there were loads of FC's who went away back to the ground and DID retain their flying pay. If you are so much in the know, you will be only too well aware of the furore when PMA tried to recover the money from them!!??
As for the Gp Capt, is the famous (or maybe infamous?) JP not a Gp capt? Heard that he had RTB Waddo on promotion (albeit in the 'funny farm')
Lastly, you say that 'the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support' What utter tosh Sir! I don't blame you for it, but someone very high up is most definately looking after the FC interests on the E-3D. I do not blame the FC's for that, good luck to them!. Your problem is , if you want to play with the big boys, you must abide by the big boys rules or face the wrath of them later, ie recognised survival courses BEFORE graduation - et al Blah!
Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey
If what you say is NOW correct, then I retract my comments, however, during the 8 years or so I did on the fleet, there were loads of FC's who went away back to the ground and DID retain their flying pay. If you are so much in the know, you will be only too well aware of the furore when PMA tried to recover the money from them!!??
As for the Gp Capt, is the famous (or maybe infamous?) JP not a Gp capt? Heard that he had RTB Waddo on promotion (albeit in the 'funny farm')
Lastly, you say that 'the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support' What utter tosh Sir! I don't blame you for it, but someone very high up is most definately looking after the FC interests on the E-3D. I do not blame the FC's for that, good luck to them!. Your problem is , if you want to play with the big boys, you must abide by the big boys rules or face the wrath of them later, ie recognised survival courses BEFORE graduation - et al Blah!
Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey
Thread Starter
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Hey come on girls!! Bitchy bitchy!!
I only put this on for a bit of banter and friendly rivalry! Brevet or badge, yeah, who gives a toss, but I thought we might see some more wit in replies etc.
I'm chalking up kinloss 2 Waddo 0. Who's gonna go for the new thread to turn it around?
I only put this on for a bit of banter and friendly rivalry! Brevet or badge, yeah, who gives a toss, but I thought we might see some more wit in replies etc.
I'm chalking up kinloss 2 Waddo 0. Who's gonna go for the new thread to turn it around?