How Many Remf's
Gentleman Aviator
Three examples (IMHO) of waste, and a personal whinge:
1. Recently (certainly same total numbers - say 52K) we had 6K blue-suiters in HQs various. Who else would have 12% of its staff in Head Office?
2. I run all my insurances (house/car/travel etc) on line, and also pay bills to anybody from Pprune
to British Telecom, credit cards etc. Makes life easy when deployed, so why do I (even as a relatively senior person) need signed hard copy for my travel claims. A question (answer at bottom of post): Cisco the computer people employ 35k people world wide. How many staff process their travel claims (on-line of course)??
3. I can accept the need for PTIs even (or perhaps particularly) when deployed, but I have some difficulty with PEdOs. We do not commission firemen (sorry PC Police - I mean firefighters) we let Ops Support run them. So why can't Admin (Trg) run PTIs?
4. Number of ranks - too many. The Met Police have 35k personnel, and have only 9 or 10 (IIRC) ranks - and they all must go through all the ranks! And was my leg being pulled or are we REALLY going to have WO2s and L/Cpls in the RAF as a sop to Jointery?
Oooooh I feel better for that - rant over, but questions I frequently ask and to which I have received few answers.
....and speaking of answers ..... Cisco manage the worldwide travel claims for a 35K workforce with .... er .... 12 people!!
1. Recently (certainly same total numbers - say 52K) we had 6K blue-suiters in HQs various. Who else would have 12% of its staff in Head Office?
2. I run all my insurances (house/car/travel etc) on line, and also pay bills to anybody from Pprune
to British Telecom, credit cards etc. Makes life easy when deployed, so why do I (even as a relatively senior person) need signed hard copy for my travel claims. A question (answer at bottom of post): Cisco the computer people employ 35k people world wide. How many staff process their travel claims (on-line of course)??3. I can accept the need for PTIs even (or perhaps particularly) when deployed, but I have some difficulty with PEdOs. We do not commission firemen (sorry PC Police - I mean firefighters) we let Ops Support run them. So why can't Admin (Trg) run PTIs?
4. Number of ranks - too many. The Met Police have 35k personnel, and have only 9 or 10 (IIRC) ranks - and they all must go through all the ranks! And was my leg being pulled or are we REALLY going to have WO2s and L/Cpls in the RAF as a sop to Jointery?
Oooooh I feel better for that - rant over, but questions I frequently ask and to which I have received few answers.
....and speaking of answers ..... Cisco manage the worldwide travel claims for a 35K workforce with .... er .... 12 people!!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: in my combat underpants
Age: 53
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was the techies sitting round - hundreds of them - for much of the time. Not REMF - was there on regular business. I expect to see aircrew sitting round.
I support the view that aircrew and techies are the most expensive to employ therefore should have minimum distraction from primary tasks. I wanted to set that system up at a previous base but not bought into by higher management. BTW - in that job, I had more people on my flight than there were in Admin Wing. Point to ponder.
Not crass, Deliverance - just opinionated and give a t0ss.
I support the view that aircrew and techies are the most expensive to employ therefore should have minimum distraction from primary tasks. I wanted to set that system up at a previous base but not bought into by higher management. BTW - in that job, I had more people on my flight than there were in Admin Wing. Point to ponder.
Not crass, Deliverance - just opinionated and give a t0ss.
"It was the techies sitting round - hundreds of them - for much of the time. "
Well, believe it or not, sometimes our jets enjoy a good run of serviceability, so people do end up sitting around. (Or maybe somebody set up a Forward Delivery system like that at M*****, which means you wait two days for a part that comes from 100 yards up the road). Most of the time however, they don't, and people are rushed off their feet. That's why you always find "hundreds" of us on dets, to cover eventualities.
But also, we're hugely overmanned on detachments to make sure we all only have to work for 2 hours a shift; only come into work every other day; finish the rare night shift at 7pm so we can go out on the town, and stuff tomorrows programme. We even close the doors and allow essential flying only when we've got more than one job each. Only contactable via the Chief Engineer.
Or perhaps not.
Mr CH, if you want to see how much sitting around actually occurs on a fast jet squadron at the producer end feel free to stop by here for a couple of weeks. Or maybe come on a Western Vortex.
You never know, you may just be surprised. Especially when you've just handed over to the day shift for the fifth morning running.
Well, believe it or not, sometimes our jets enjoy a good run of serviceability, so people do end up sitting around. (Or maybe somebody set up a Forward Delivery system like that at M*****, which means you wait two days for a part that comes from 100 yards up the road). Most of the time however, they don't, and people are rushed off their feet. That's why you always find "hundreds" of us on dets, to cover eventualities.
But also, we're hugely overmanned on detachments to make sure we all only have to work for 2 hours a shift; only come into work every other day; finish the rare night shift at 7pm so we can go out on the town, and stuff tomorrows programme. We even close the doors and allow essential flying only when we've got more than one job each. Only contactable via the Chief Engineer.
Or perhaps not.
Mr CH, if you want to see how much sitting around actually occurs on a fast jet squadron at the producer end feel free to stop by here for a couple of weeks. Or maybe come on a Western Vortex.
You never know, you may just be surprised. Especially when you've just handed over to the day shift for the fifth morning running.
DP Harvey: I sincerely hope that the AFB take on board the recommendations of the E2E report.
That would be the report that recommended moving the Nim Force to Waddington so that savings could be made in the logistics budget then?? What about the operational budget?? E2E is written by loggies with minimal operational input (and common sense). It has some good ideas but some dangerous rubbish!!
That would be the report that recommended moving the Nim Force to Waddington so that savings could be made in the logistics budget then?? What about the operational budget?? E2E is written by loggies with minimal operational input (and common sense). It has some good ideas but some dangerous rubbish!!
Jobza
You beat me to it
But you forgot to mention how easy it is to get your leave in and all the expeds that you can do on a Sqn
One other thing Mr H perhaps does not realise is that you can't mend a/c whilst they're flying (little 'uns anyhow).
Perhaps a cure for these myths that surround what a flying Sqn does could be addressed by every one on a flying unit being assigned to a Sqn and when that sqn deploys so do their support personnel (as required). That should allow all on that stn to learn more about everyone elses jobs and perhaps there might be more co-operation a base units
and while I'm dreaming I'd like a pony
You beat me to it
But you forgot to mention how easy it is to get your leave in and all the expeds that you can do on a Sqn
One other thing Mr H perhaps does not realise is that you can't mend a/c whilst they're flying (little 'uns anyhow).
Perhaps a cure for these myths that surround what a flying Sqn does could be addressed by every one on a flying unit being assigned to a Sqn and when that sqn deploys so do their support personnel (as required). That should allow all on that stn to learn more about everyone elses jobs and perhaps there might be more co-operation a base units
and while I'm dreaming I'd like a pony
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen...
I see a continuing theme in this thread which saddens me, and only makes my decision making as to my future in the RAF even easier. Remeber the old saying there is no I in team work...!? Well, all I get from the majority of the posts here is the sense that we are all bickering at each other, trying to justify our own jobs...the gae old 'them and us' syndrome.
Well, we are all employed by the RAF for one reason, and that is to generate air power. I agree that manpower levels and tasking needs to be analysed constantly, due to the shifting sands of HMG's foreign policy. This is what our lords and masters are trying to do.
Trouble is, we were geared for SDR which is not what we our current commitments reflect - hence the white paper.
Sadly, if anything, I think we need to increase manning - simple, but not what HMG want to hear, nor will they do. Why you may ask!? Well, as a Flt Cdr, there are never enough Admin specialists around to assist me in the running of my Flt's personnel issues. When stretched by operations, there are never enough 'blue suiters' to make the running of essntial tasks any easier. We are asking our youngest and most inexperienced personnel to take on too much responsibility (at all ranks). And, as our engineer friend has said, we make people work until they burn out - not on ops, but on Exs and peace-time tasks. I would write more but it depresses me slightly.
On a final note, some of you really do need to put into context your use of the word REMF. As one of these esteemed fellows, yes my primary duty will usually see me working behind any front line. However, tri service ops consistently see 'REMFs' placed into situations they were not trained for. I have been in a number of interseting situations, as a 'REMF', which were not in the job discription....yes, the aviators at the pointy end face nasty horrors...shoot downs, malfunctions, capture etc...but remember one thing - you were trained to cope with this. SAC Smiffy driving his ammo truck from Basrah to the FLOT during Telic, was not trained to deal with hostile crowds, snipers, mines, or in dealing with the army!
I digress form my original point - stop slinging mud at each other and arguing over who works the hardest - we all do essential jobs, and you only realise that when you loose a capability that you previously took for granted.
Monkey
I see a continuing theme in this thread which saddens me, and only makes my decision making as to my future in the RAF even easier. Remeber the old saying there is no I in team work...!? Well, all I get from the majority of the posts here is the sense that we are all bickering at each other, trying to justify our own jobs...the gae old 'them and us' syndrome.
Well, we are all employed by the RAF for one reason, and that is to generate air power. I agree that manpower levels and tasking needs to be analysed constantly, due to the shifting sands of HMG's foreign policy. This is what our lords and masters are trying to do.
Trouble is, we were geared for SDR which is not what we our current commitments reflect - hence the white paper.Sadly, if anything, I think we need to increase manning - simple, but not what HMG want to hear, nor will they do. Why you may ask!? Well, as a Flt Cdr, there are never enough Admin specialists around to assist me in the running of my Flt's personnel issues. When stretched by operations, there are never enough 'blue suiters' to make the running of essntial tasks any easier. We are asking our youngest and most inexperienced personnel to take on too much responsibility (at all ranks). And, as our engineer friend has said, we make people work until they burn out - not on ops, but on Exs and peace-time tasks. I would write more but it depresses me slightly.
On a final note, some of you really do need to put into context your use of the word REMF. As one of these esteemed fellows, yes my primary duty will usually see me working behind any front line. However, tri service ops consistently see 'REMFs' placed into situations they were not trained for. I have been in a number of interseting situations, as a 'REMF', which were not in the job discription....yes, the aviators at the pointy end face nasty horrors...shoot downs, malfunctions, capture etc...but remember one thing - you were trained to cope with this. SAC Smiffy driving his ammo truck from Basrah to the FLOT during Telic, was not trained to deal with hostile crowds, snipers, mines, or in dealing with the army!
I digress form my original point - stop slinging mud at each other and arguing over who works the hardest - we all do essential jobs, and you only realise that when you loose a capability that you previously took for granted.
Monkey
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: in my combat underpants
Age: 53
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Monkey
That is taken as read. Part of fostering teamwork is getting those people AROUND YOU together. I can't make a team out of a whole stn - that is the job of the stn cdr. I can only really work with my flt and foster relations with other flts.
My dig at techies on the sqn sitting round was intended to raise a few points! What it was leading to is that all those people need supporting - the more you take, the more support you need. This is magnified when you throw mission creep in to the equation. The manning difference between extended days & 24 hrs is pretty big.
I've worked on a FJ unit in a support role. There were some petty people across all of it, but the main mistake seemed to be leaving people on the same ac sqns for ever. You got to know the relics and had to work round them.
There are a few differences between Eng/Supply & Admin - QA being a BIG one that grips my $h!t - but yes, we get shoulder to shoulder to do it when it matters.
Now stop whining and accept the banter.
Jobza & Insty - did you hear of the Supply Officer that sat in as a JEngO on a high priority FJ sqn for a week - the praises sung by the SNCOs was deafening. Pvt me for more details if you can cope!
That is taken as read. Part of fostering teamwork is getting those people AROUND YOU together. I can't make a team out of a whole stn - that is the job of the stn cdr. I can only really work with my flt and foster relations with other flts.
My dig at techies on the sqn sitting round was intended to raise a few points! What it was leading to is that all those people need supporting - the more you take, the more support you need. This is magnified when you throw mission creep in to the equation. The manning difference between extended days & 24 hrs is pretty big.
I've worked on a FJ unit in a support role. There were some petty people across all of it, but the main mistake seemed to be leaving people on the same ac sqns for ever. You got to know the relics and had to work round them.
There are a few differences between Eng/Supply & Admin - QA being a BIG one that grips my $h!t - but yes, we get shoulder to shoulder to do it when it matters.
Now stop whining and accept the banter.
Jobza & Insty - did you hear of the Supply Officer that sat in as a JEngO on a high priority FJ sqn for a week - the praises sung by the SNCOs was deafening. Pvt me for more details if you can cope!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Muscat, Oman
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few years back, I was on a visit to see 3 Div (UK Army) on exercise in the field. The brief given by the Army started with this:
"Gentlemen, 3 Div has about 26,000 people - approximately half the size of the RAF. We run it from a tent!"
It was probably the best put down I ever heard.
"Gentlemen, 3 Div has about 26,000 people - approximately half the size of the RAF. We run it from a tent!"
It was probably the best put down I ever heard.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr H...
Thankyou for pointing out where I've gone wrong...
Banter I can accept, Ignorance shouldn't be accepted without challenging it!
Ali Barber...I recall enraging a few Army officer's oout in Bosnia a coupla years ago as they trudged off to their corrimechs complaining about the RAF's 'high living' - 'why dig in when you can check in!?' I said....
CM
Thankyou for pointing out where I've gone wrong...
Banter I can accept, Ignorance shouldn't be accepted without challenging it! Ali Barber...I recall enraging a few Army officer's oout in Bosnia a coupla years ago as they trudged off to their corrimechs complaining about the RAF's 'high living' - 'why dig in when you can check in!?' I said....
CM
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Swamp Land in East Anglia
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insty 66
Steady on ole chap! 
Your attacking "Airforce Problems" with logic!
It'll never catch on!
LTB
That should allow all on that stn to learn more about everyone elses jobs and perhaps there might be more co-operation a base units
Your attacking "Airforce Problems" with logic!
It'll never catch on!
LTB
LTB
Why ever not? Is it because it would mean the breaking up of little empires around the RAF? I think it could even be cost effective (that'll make some one think about it!)
Monkey
Agree we're all in together but barriers need to be broken down between sections to improve things. Continual empire building only worsens relations between sections. See my earlier suggestion.
Is not a REMF in the RAF, someone in a support post in the UK that is not liable for OOA deployment? Or is it simply anyone who we decide gives nothing to the production of airpower? It depends on who you want to wind up I suspect.
Why ever not? Is it because it would mean the breaking up of little empires around the RAF?
I think it could even be cost effective (that'll make some one think about it!)Monkey
Agree we're all in together but barriers need to be broken down between sections to improve things. Continual empire building only worsens relations between sections. See my earlier suggestion.
Is not a REMF in the RAF, someone in a support post in the UK that is not liable for OOA deployment? Or is it simply anyone who we decide gives nothing to the production of airpower? It depends on who you want to wind up I suspect.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Crossing Charlie
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
INCOMING
Monkey.
Staggered to see the RAF are worried about job descriptions when we are talking about deployment into an operational zone.
Is there not an understanding that everyone one has a committment to 'soldiers first'. By this I mean that all of the basic training skills may be put to use. Does the RAF not complete pre Op depeployment training to hone up on these skills such as mine identification and anti ambush drills?
Commanders cannot carry any dead weight folks like your SAC Smiffy, a qualified driver, but inside airfield perimeters only!
All folks on operations must be prepared to be multitasked - if not they are REMFs
LB
Staggered to see the RAF are worried about job descriptions when we are talking about deployment into an operational zone.
Is there not an understanding that everyone one has a committment to 'soldiers first'. By this I mean that all of the basic training skills may be put to use. Does the RAF not complete pre Op depeployment training to hone up on these skills such as mine identification and anti ambush drills?
Commanders cannot carry any dead weight folks like your SAC Smiffy, a qualified driver, but inside airfield perimeters only!
All folks on operations must be prepared to be multitasked - if not they are REMFs
LB
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: england
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insty,
As ever a voice of reason. I totally agree that having a sqn that incorporates all trades necessary does make for better harmonisation. Although again, you have to be careful about hopw many hangers on you take. We currently don't have our own techies and only have to admin guys to run the backroom for us on the sqn. These admin people work hard for us and in the majority the sqn personnel respect that hard work. It just worries me to see the amount of extraneous jobs that make the sqn personnels lives that little bit more tediuos.
Why should it matter if a man can keep a jet airworthy, or can spot a certain type of SAM off ESM kit, but can't run to level 9 on the bleep test??!! All PTI's do is admire themselves in the endless walls of mirrors to be found in the gyms. What do they actually bring to the table??
My own take on a REMF;
Somebody who's job has no productive output to the maintainance of a frontline Sqn.
As ever a voice of reason. I totally agree that having a sqn that incorporates all trades necessary does make for better harmonisation. Although again, you have to be careful about hopw many hangers on you take. We currently don't have our own techies and only have to admin guys to run the backroom for us on the sqn. These admin people work hard for us and in the majority the sqn personnel respect that hard work. It just worries me to see the amount of extraneous jobs that make the sqn personnels lives that little bit more tediuos.
Why should it matter if a man can keep a jet airworthy, or can spot a certain type of SAM off ESM kit, but can't run to level 9 on the bleep test??!! All PTI's do is admire themselves in the endless walls of mirrors to be found in the gyms. What do they actually bring to the table??
My own take on a REMF;
Somebody who's job has no productive output to the maintainance of a frontline Sqn.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Swamp Land in East Anglia
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insty66
If I was to become Marshall of the Royal Airforce, not only would my own logic be used, but also I would to employ you as my right hand man to implement them!.
As long as I have a hole in my $%^& and I continue to think of logic at my lowly level, unfortunately that will never happen.
I therefore ask you to consider more the “irony” of my last post.
LTB
If I was to become Marshall of the Royal Airforce, not only would my own logic be used, but also I would to employ you as my right hand man to implement them!.
As long as I have a hole in my $%^& and I continue to think of logic at my lowly level, unfortunately that will never happen.
I therefore ask you to consider more the “irony” of my last post.
LTB
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Low ball...
i couldn't agree more with you! But I think your missing my point, in that we are over exposing our most inexperienced operators, simply because we do not have the manpower to go round! Sending SAC's who have been in the Mob for 18 months into a front line combat situation with the annual CCS qual, and a 3 day pre det course on mine awareness and anti ambush!? do you really think that is adequate...obviously our lords and ladies do, but I do not.
The first thing Smiffy will know about mine awareness is when it sends him 50ft into the air, and we all know what happens to any one caught in an effective ambush!
Any way, not biting too hard here, all I'm saying is we should be up manning not down scaling, and yes in tri-service ops we shoud be giving our people more intensive trg.
Having worked with the army, you'll be amazed at the amount of work up trg a trained soldier gets before he goes out to theatre. Our lads and lasses dont even get anything close to that and, as you rightly point out, are expected to venture into the combat area.
And again with reagrds to REMFS, with jointry etc, soome of our people who may not be directly involved in generatin air power, have certainly been involved in UN missions to Africa and so on...would you still call someone who has conducted unarmed monitoring duties in the worlds most turbulent continent a REMF? I would call him crazy, but would stand by for a one way barrage if I called him a REMF. think laterally...
i couldn't agree more with you! But I think your missing my point, in that we are over exposing our most inexperienced operators, simply because we do not have the manpower to go round! Sending SAC's who have been in the Mob for 18 months into a front line combat situation with the annual CCS qual, and a 3 day pre det course on mine awareness and anti ambush!? do you really think that is adequate...obviously our lords and ladies do, but I do not.
The first thing Smiffy will know about mine awareness is when it sends him 50ft into the air, and we all know what happens to any one caught in an effective ambush!
Any way, not biting too hard here, all I'm saying is we should be up manning not down scaling, and yes in tri-service ops we shoud be giving our people more intensive trg.
Having worked with the army, you'll be amazed at the amount of work up trg a trained soldier gets before he goes out to theatre. Our lads and lasses dont even get anything close to that and, as you rightly point out, are expected to venture into the combat area.
And again with reagrds to REMFS, with jointry etc, soome of our people who may not be directly involved in generatin air power, have certainly been involved in UN missions to Africa and so on...would you still call someone who has conducted unarmed monitoring duties in the worlds most turbulent continent a REMF? I would call him crazy, but would stand by for a one way barrage if I called him a REMF. think laterally...
Aircrew (yes BRANCH, I know).
No flying so we can all spend more time enjoying the 5-star hotels we always stay in, and think of how much more rates we could all get if we didn't spend any money on fuel.
How much more room in first class there would be on the flight out
Massive fuel savings on the AT due to the lack of aircrew butty boxes. Flight time now decreased by 10% too helped by no aircrew unaccompanied baggage.
Saves money as there wouldn't be aircrew changeovers 4 days into the det. And the Boss wouldn't need his first-class CivAir flight either.
Food bill for the det goes down considerably, thus more chance of dets to places worth spending 2 months in. Not to mention more scoff for the Techytubbies.
No hospital bills plus homeward CivAir flights for green-bagged chumsters injured in a rowdy game of Bridge. Or was it crud, Fish?
Would finally be possible to get on an expedition at Goose.
And so it begins.................
No flying so we can all spend more time enjoying the 5-star hotels we always stay in, and think of how much more rates we could all get if we didn't spend any money on fuel.
How much more room in first class there would be on the flight out
Massive fuel savings on the AT due to the lack of aircrew butty boxes. Flight time now decreased by 10% too helped by no aircrew unaccompanied baggage.
Saves money as there wouldn't be aircrew changeovers 4 days into the det. And the Boss wouldn't need his first-class CivAir flight either.
Food bill for the det goes down considerably, thus more chance of dets to places worth spending 2 months in. Not to mention more scoff for the Techytubbies.
No hospital bills plus homeward CivAir flights for green-bagged chumsters injured in a rowdy game of Bridge. Or was it crud, Fish?
Would finally be possible to get on an expedition at Goose.
And so it begins.................
Killed this thread then...
Errrr, blimey guys, I was only joking. Was expecting a bucketload of techy/blunty gags in return.
Large helping of humble pie coming in by Forward Delivery.
Should get it by Tuesday then.....:
Large helping of humble pie coming in by Forward Delivery.
Should get it by Tuesday then.....:
