This isn't good at all!!
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Remember the british coal mining industry?
That's what's happening to the british armed forces. The same misguided arguements that were used to get rid of SHAR are being used on the rest.
I shall wish you all good luck from the cockpit of my 747
That's what's happening to the british armed forces. The same misguided arguements that were used to get rid of SHAR are being used on the rest.
I shall wish you all good luck from the cockpit of my 747
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I've got a couple of ideas to dig us out of this mess:
a. Introduce a budgetary 'TACEVAL team', with a mandate to show up at airbase X and delve about for 2 months or so to spot wastes of money and false economies. We've all seen white elephants being built, sluggish contractors win the deal and take x months to do the job properly and money re-directed from genuine need cases to more higher profile edifices. The main cause of this is the relative inexperience of those with the reigns at unit level; moreover, they move after 2 years or so, so why bother with anything more than plugging the gaps? This leads on to...
b. Employ a 'long term management' team on each base, who can at least maintain some kind of corporate knowledge in each location. Something like this - where this group stay in one location ad infinitum - will combat the 'tourist philosophy' whereby all of us disappear after 2-3 years.
No matter what the claims, all public sector organisations waste money - military included. Devolving budgets to relative budgetary amateurs isn't the solution as they're inclined to spend every penny so as not to have their budget reduced the following year. However, if an independent-ish long-term management team was established on each base, one of their jobs could be to put up a case to carry-over an underspend towards a long-term project the following year. Common sense really; if I want a car I save up rather than spend my money on a new television each year!
And why not TACEVAL other government organisations? Send in 'single mother' to the counter at DWP and see what service she gets. Then she writes a post-TACEVAL report on whether the system works! Biggest problem we have is we generate graphs at senior level, but nobody keeps an eye on the day-to-day stuff.
Going back to the military side of things, we hear about kit shortfalls fairly often, but maybe, just maybe that's because it's such a big job to monitor how we spend the cash we're given, we don't have enough resources to see that it gets spent properly or re-directed intelligently. Accountability is the key and, who knows, we might just have loads of cash lying around being spent on nonsense that could be spent more wisely.
We've tried 'intelligent procurement', why not try 'intelligent budget management'?
a. Introduce a budgetary 'TACEVAL team', with a mandate to show up at airbase X and delve about for 2 months or so to spot wastes of money and false economies. We've all seen white elephants being built, sluggish contractors win the deal and take x months to do the job properly and money re-directed from genuine need cases to more higher profile edifices. The main cause of this is the relative inexperience of those with the reigns at unit level; moreover, they move after 2 years or so, so why bother with anything more than plugging the gaps? This leads on to...
b. Employ a 'long term management' team on each base, who can at least maintain some kind of corporate knowledge in each location. Something like this - where this group stay in one location ad infinitum - will combat the 'tourist philosophy' whereby all of us disappear after 2-3 years.
No matter what the claims, all public sector organisations waste money - military included. Devolving budgets to relative budgetary amateurs isn't the solution as they're inclined to spend every penny so as not to have their budget reduced the following year. However, if an independent-ish long-term management team was established on each base, one of their jobs could be to put up a case to carry-over an underspend towards a long-term project the following year. Common sense really; if I want a car I save up rather than spend my money on a new television each year!
And why not TACEVAL other government organisations? Send in 'single mother' to the counter at DWP and see what service she gets. Then she writes a post-TACEVAL report on whether the system works! Biggest problem we have is we generate graphs at senior level, but nobody keeps an eye on the day-to-day stuff.
Going back to the military side of things, we hear about kit shortfalls fairly often, but maybe, just maybe that's because it's such a big job to monitor how we spend the cash we're given, we don't have enough resources to see that it gets spent properly or re-directed intelligently. Accountability is the key and, who knows, we might just have loads of cash lying around being spent on nonsense that could be spent more wisely.
We've tried 'intelligent procurement', why not try 'intelligent budget management'?
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Its strange the way the USA are going in the opposite direction. Their public are obsessed with their forces, the entire presidential election will be fought over the issue, defence funding over their is increasing year after year.
Were so different, nobody cares and yet we face a very similar threat to the USA, as Tony Blair sucks up to them so much.
Were so different, nobody cares and yet we face a very similar threat to the USA, as Tony Blair sucks up to them so much.
I'd certainly agree that we should give Trident and all the nuke establishment a dining out with honours and spend the money on something useful. After all, if there is a nuclear threat it will be from a chappie with one in the back of his car, that was built in a light industrial unit off a ring road somewhere - where do you drop the bucket of sun to retaliate against al-Qa'ida in any meaningful sense? The best defence against that will be forward defence - i.e. expeditionary warfare - counterterrorism, counterproliferation, and civil defence preparations to deal with the consequences of a superterrorist getting through. SSBNs are irrelevant to this.
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Nice idea in principle FOM, would even work I reckon, but far to logical to be implemented. 
However, such a thing would, I suggest, degrade into the service equivalent of the civvie "counting paper clips" approach. This would not identify the real culprits, just the poor sods at the bottom of the food chain who inadvertantly use too many split pins or 2BA screws.
Anyway, it would surely involve a certain amount of pointing of fingers that would upset the touchy/feely ethos of what seems to be the current RAF. 
However, such a thing would, I suggest, degrade into the service equivalent of the civvie "counting paper clips" approach. This would not identify the real culprits, just the poor sods at the bottom of the food chain who inadvertantly use too many split pins or 2BA screws.
Anyway, it would surely involve a certain amount of pointing of fingers that would upset the touchy/feely ethos of what seems to be the current RAF.
Perhaps some of the points raised on an earlier thread a relevent here?
Defence, media and the public (or something like that)
Possible countermeasures?
Not easy, but greater use of presention teams, improved PR, etc would help.
As would schemes such as this , on a greater scale (watered down/shortned and made available to more people) would help?
Defence, media and the public (or something like that)
Possible countermeasures?
Not easy, but greater use of presention teams, improved PR, etc would help.
As would schemes such as this , on a greater scale (watered down/shortned and made available to more people) would help?
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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WEBF
This isn't about Joe Publics perception of what the Services do. Most MP's these days, unlike 20 years or so ago, have never served in the military and indeed find its ethos most disturbing and unpleasant.
Make no mistake - Bliar and Co blame the military for getting them into the Iraq mess in the first place. Todays HMG IMO happens to be the most corrupt and spiteful this country has ever seen. Believe me you are going to be made to pay a large price for your perceived fouls ups!!
Certainly we are back to the exact time frame of the 1930's when I understand the world was a very dangerous place and we cut all 3 forces, but especially the RAF back to the bone. So much so that we only just managed to win the Battle of Britain etc by sacrificing a large portion of our youth. Circumstances may be different today but the theory is exactly the same. Britain as a whole tends to have a very short memory and lessons? Are they ever learned??
This isn't about Joe Publics perception of what the Services do. Most MP's these days, unlike 20 years or so ago, have never served in the military and indeed find its ethos most disturbing and unpleasant.
Make no mistake - Bliar and Co blame the military for getting them into the Iraq mess in the first place. Todays HMG IMO happens to be the most corrupt and spiteful this country has ever seen. Believe me you are going to be made to pay a large price for your perceived fouls ups!!
Certainly we are back to the exact time frame of the 1930's when I understand the world was a very dangerous place and we cut all 3 forces, but especially the RAF back to the bone. So much so that we only just managed to win the Battle of Britain etc by sacrificing a large portion of our youth. Circumstances may be different today but the theory is exactly the same. Britain as a whole tends to have a very short memory and lessons? Are they ever learned??
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Maybe these cuts are more strategically thought out. If you consider that Blair appears to have every intention of selling the UK into the United States of Europe, we'll have nothing left to fight for, and will only be allowed by our European masters to act as a part of a large joint European Force.
Unfortunately the armed forces are merely a tool to be used by our political masters as they see fit. These political masters are also bitter about evey penny they give us and through their tasking of our forces, the public won't come running to our rescue.
Could rant on for hours, argue cases, but whats the point??
F
Unfortunately the armed forces are merely a tool to be used by our political masters as they see fit. These political masters are also bitter about evey penny they give us and through their tasking of our forces, the public won't come running to our rescue.
Could rant on for hours, argue cases, but whats the point??
F
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B Liar and his cronies have to make the cut backs so that ...
From the 2000 Spending review - Chapter 12 Investing in Defence for the 21st century
The only way they will achieve these target are cutbacks.
Edited as I put the wrong review date in.
Recruit, retain and motivate the personnel needed to meet the manning requirement of the Armed Forces, so that by March 2004, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force achieve full manning and the Army meets 97 per cent of its manning requirement.
The only way they will achieve these target are cutbacks.
Edited as I put the wrong review date in.
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Gorilla
Funnily enough, I too was thinking back to the thirties earlier and how the world is faced with a similar period of uncertainty. The West has maintained the upper hand over the rest of the world for centuries, but the balance is shifting very quickly as weapons (of MD) become more prolific.
In terms of patterns we're repeating history once again; no perceived threat = chop the forces; be it WW2, the Falklands etc.
It troubles me greatly because we're due a 'lose' and politicians - whatever their motives - are destined to cause this. Strategically speaking, Blair wants to keep us on the world stage, but in practical terms the elastic will eventually snap. With dread not-dissimilar to someone with foresight in 1930, I feel powerless to flag-up an enemy nobody can yet see, but rest assured on the basis of mankind's history, he's out there and he will strike.
Defence is paramount to everything else we have; it is the shell that protects the soft centre of our every day lives; weaken the shell and our education system, our health service, our very lives become academic to those who regard our country with envious eyes...
And slowly, but surely, they drew their plans against us...
Funnily enough, I too was thinking back to the thirties earlier and how the world is faced with a similar period of uncertainty. The West has maintained the upper hand over the rest of the world for centuries, but the balance is shifting very quickly as weapons (of MD) become more prolific.
In terms of patterns we're repeating history once again; no perceived threat = chop the forces; be it WW2, the Falklands etc.
It troubles me greatly because we're due a 'lose' and politicians - whatever their motives - are destined to cause this. Strategically speaking, Blair wants to keep us on the world stage, but in practical terms the elastic will eventually snap. With dread not-dissimilar to someone with foresight in 1930, I feel powerless to flag-up an enemy nobody can yet see, but rest assured on the basis of mankind's history, he's out there and he will strike.
Defence is paramount to everything else we have; it is the shell that protects the soft centre of our every day lives; weaken the shell and our education system, our health service, our very lives become academic to those who regard our country with envious eyes...
And slowly, but surely, they drew their plans against us...
.....but the chances of anything coming from Mars, are a million to one, they said! to continue your Jeff Wayne 'War of the Worlds' quote!
Yup, I very much regret that I saw all this coming and pulled the black and yellow. I simply could not continue in the atmosphere of lies, spin and ever increasing cut backs. If Blair, Hoon and the rest of the slime currently in power really go ahead with all these cuts, will we see any protestations or resignations in high places? No..."Have to toe the line on this, old chap. Otherwise it'll mean no 3rd star and no K"
Of course HMG needs all the dosh it can to pay all the asylum seekers and social security scroungers wating to invade from Eastern Europe when another 10 or 11 countries join the EU very soon now.
The rot started in 1957 with that infamous White Paper, the downward death spiral has been tightening ever since and terra firma isn't far away.......
Yup, I very much regret that I saw all this coming and pulled the black and yellow. I simply could not continue in the atmosphere of lies, spin and ever increasing cut backs. If Blair, Hoon and the rest of the slime currently in power really go ahead with all these cuts, will we see any protestations or resignations in high places? No..."Have to toe the line on this, old chap. Otherwise it'll mean no 3rd star and no K"
Of course HMG needs all the dosh it can to pay all the asylum seekers and social security scroungers wating to invade from Eastern Europe when another 10 or 11 countries join the EU very soon now.
The rot started in 1957 with that infamous White Paper, the downward death spiral has been tightening ever since and terra firma isn't far away.......
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Feneris may be on to something. this is pure conjecture but, could Brair and Blown be thinking of the Euro, reduce the Forces to home guard status and then throw it to the command of the Joint Euro force after we have dumped the £ in favour of the €. Once the € is accepted, of course, there will no longer any sovereign control over UKF so you might as well let the straight banana mob run what little there is left. Still think privitisation is the answer.
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Beags/MM
"The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one, but still they come!"
"Million to one chances happen nine times out of ten" . . . Terry Pratchett. 
"The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one, but still they come!"
"Million to one chances happen nine times out of ten" . . . Terry Pratchett.
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Well said Mad Mark!
Bay 17-20, you obviously have no knowledge of the Mk4A project. - as with the MR2, it will be the ONLY true multi role combat aircraft in the inventory - indeed some of the new kit is in use already
Rumour has it that BWOS will be allowed time to fly the "in air machine" which satisfies their contract then it will be scrapped -Result? No compensation and a saving of a mere £500 million to feed the the impending visitors from eastern Europe!! Brilliant
Bay 17-20, you obviously have no knowledge of the Mk4A project. - as with the MR2, it will be the ONLY true multi role combat aircraft in the inventory - indeed some of the new kit is in use already
Rumour has it that BWOS will be allowed time to fly the "in air machine" which satisfies their contract then it will be scrapped -Result? No compensation and a saving of a mere £500 million to feed the the impending visitors from eastern Europe!! Brilliant
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Now you guys know your true worth to Tony & Gordy.
Unfortunately Tony blames the MOD for all of his Iraq troubles and financial penalities are the result.
Death by a thousand cuts appears to be the final sentence!!
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...p?story=500020
Unfortunately Tony blames the MOD for all of his Iraq troubles and financial penalities are the result.
Death by a thousand cuts appears to be the final sentence!!
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...p?story=500020
Gorilla old chap,
You are full of good news these days. You did, however make a wise choice and vacated this club of ours. I am trying to remain keen and look for the positives to remain in but I fear the pins may need to be removed before very long.
You are full of good news these days. You did, however make a wise choice and vacated this club of ours. I am trying to remain keen and look for the positives to remain in but I fear the pins may need to be removed before very long.
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I must congratulate those arses in Whitehall - they've done more damage to our armed forces than any other enemy ever has. If they'd been around 60yrs ago .........
Would the last man to leave please turn out the lights.
The only crumb of comfort comes from this fact: "we've got to toe the line of this one chaps so I get my 3rd star" means we can't argue/do/say anything now........... but we can sure as hell try and get em all sacked next year in the election. When will they remember WE elected THEM so WE can SACK THEM.
All spelling mistakes due to incandescent rage!!!
Would the last man to leave please turn out the lights.
The only crumb of comfort comes from this fact: "we've got to toe the line of this one chaps so I get my 3rd star" means we can't argue/do/say anything now........... but we can sure as hell try and get em all sacked next year in the election. When will they remember WE elected THEM so WE can SACK THEM.
All spelling mistakes due to incandescent rage!!!