VC 10 on Route 66
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All ways wondered what was the idea of the spoiler bulk which was introduced after the flight trial on the K2.
Remember seeing the pictures of the cracked fin spar and damaged stub wing panels after that eventfull test flight on ZA140? (if memory serves me right 1981 was a long time ago) which resulted in its introduction. At the time it was believed that the stub wing had gone supersonic so suppose that is another speed record that the VC10 can claim
Remember seeing the pictures of the cracked fin spar and damaged stub wing panels after that eventfull test flight on ZA140? (if memory serves me right 1981 was a long time ago) which resulted in its introduction. At the time it was believed that the stub wing had gone supersonic so suppose that is another speed record that the VC10 can claim
It was introduced after some idiot company TP elected to perform 2 test points together. The ac ran away with them in a high speed descent, it all went horribly pear shaped. Full speedbrake gave virtually no roll control as, at the speed they were at, aileron deflexion merely caused wing twist and the spoilers were fully out, so couldn't move differentially.
After going way, way over Vne, they managed to recover the old lady (ZA141 'B') after many unpleasant noises from the back had been experienced.
Daft company TP wanted to repeat the test, but wiser counsel prevailed. When they got back to Boscombe it was found that some of the fin spars had cracked, the stub wings had been damaged and various engine panels were missing....
'They' changed the rules for selecting full speedbrake and introduced the baulk, so that if anyone else got into an unintentional high speed descent (highly unlikely...), at least there'd be some roll control available.
In true Bodgitt and Scarper form, BWoS managed to find another fin from a grounded ac and that was fitted to 'B'. She was probably the best of the K2s - and the only one ever to be painted in the old-fashioned green and grey camouflage scheme.
After going way, way over Vne, they managed to recover the old lady (ZA141 'B') after many unpleasant noises from the back had been experienced.
Daft company TP wanted to repeat the test, but wiser counsel prevailed. When they got back to Boscombe it was found that some of the fin spars had cracked, the stub wings had been damaged and various engine panels were missing....
'They' changed the rules for selecting full speedbrake and introduced the baulk, so that if anyone else got into an unintentional high speed descent (highly unlikely...), at least there'd be some roll control available.
In true Bodgitt and Scarper form, BWoS managed to find another fin from a grounded ac and that was fitted to 'B'. She was probably the best of the K2s - and the only one ever to be painted in the old-fashioned green and grey camouflage scheme.
Last edited by BEagle; 14th Feb 2004 at 17:13.
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Here's a question for VC-10 crews or those in the know, do the 10's get airport fines everywhere they go for breaking noise levels etc? Just a rumour i've heard in the past? I think its a shame I love the noise of the mighty aircraft on take off when stuck at the end of the runway, very effective as a ground shaker!! 
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PPF,
No they don't. That's a myth.
A few tours ago I worked in the office that had to send the fines to Liverpool for payment. The most sensitive place was/is Hannover. The worst culprit? 216 Sqn Tristars.
A VC10 flying a full noise abatement profile can go into and out of most noise sensitive airports without busting the decibel limit.
Reichman
PS. I never bust a limit either.
No they don't. That's a myth.
A few tours ago I worked in the office that had to send the fines to Liverpool for payment. The most sensitive place was/is Hannover. The worst culprit? 216 Sqn Tristars.
A VC10 flying a full noise abatement profile can go into and out of most noise sensitive airports without busting the decibel limit.
Reichman
PS. I never bust a limit either.
Probably because when the '10 came out of HAJ it was usually very light, so climbed pretty well at full power to the noise throttle-back point.
Low-drag CDA profiles made it reasonably quiet (for a '10) on the approach as well. Why not fly the same low-noise approaches into BZN as SOP? I'm sure the locals would appreciate it!
Low-drag CDA profiles made it reasonably quiet (for a '10) on the approach as well. Why not fly the same low-noise approaches into BZN as SOP? I'm sure the locals would appreciate it!
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Presently low drag/low noise approaches are carried out regularly on the sixties whisper jet, but due to varying standards of approach technique they cannot be completed as advertised. Anyway annoying the superannuated in and around BZN is one of the small pleasures that has not been tampered with.
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Had the pleasure of sitting on the jump seat for a 'standing full power' take-off in a (very) low fuel weight VC-10 out of Leeming once (just enough gas to get to BZN + reserves etc). Utterly gob smacking. The thing had greater acceleration than most of the FJ's I've flown and a climb angle to make your eyes water - will never forget that, outstanding aircraft.
MT
MT
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146.5T on Departure
Heavy weight departures, high temp/palt do mean factored power can't be used in the 10. Low weight and full noise abate out of for example Manchester gives the spotters quite a sight of a big(ish) 4 eng jet going up like a homesick angel, so you end up limited to a pitch climb angle (not flying V2+20) while the jet continues to accelerate (Beags can doubtlessly explain why but I think ithas something to do with lowering the nose and loss of speed post a double engine failure) Nice to know the clasic British aero industry products can still impress the US, though they frequently call you a DC 10. TSR 2, F.D 2 Delta Canbera etc...By the way Ivan have you just arrived out in ABQ or been there for a while and about to come home....If we could have got got in touch with you could have gone out for a beer.
Axel,very true,I remember being fed around the instrument pattern at Edwards,at night and the controller asked,
"Is that a Vulcan?"
"Negative,it's a VC10"
.............................." Turn right 250 degrees,Yeah,but do they call it a Vulcan?"
"No just a VC10"
.............................."Well is it a Viscount then?"
"No, no it's just a VC10"
"Are you sure it doesn't have a name"
"Yes" says Marsbar on the radio "The Vulcan's an extinct bomber and the Viscount's a prop job,it's a bloody VC10"
"Is that a Vulcan?"
"Negative,it's a VC10"
.............................." Turn right 250 degrees,Yeah,but do they call it a Vulcan?"
"No just a VC10"
.............................."Well is it a Viscount then?"
"No, no it's just a VC10"
"Are you sure it doesn't have a name"
"Yes" says Marsbar on the radio "The Vulcan's an extinct bomber and the Viscount's a prop job,it's a bloody VC10"
We always had the extract from the Aircrew Manual all ready for Spams who asked what the ac was - or who insisted on calling it a "Viss-count". That "The VC10 is an all metal low ming monolplane powered by 4 rear mounted RR Conway...." thing. Normally it gave them the point...
Boss of TQF using profanity on the RT? Unprofessional little w*****!!
The best lightweight dep we did was standing full power out of Scampton at 11 tonnes in tanks - just enough to get back to BZ. None of this poofter V2+20 (I wasn't a QFI then - and rules were for idiots!) - we climbed at V2! A ground photo shows a pitch angle of....I'd better not say. We were normally limited to 17.5 deg pitch attitude; if that gave you an IAS greater than V2+20, it was deemed OK.
But full power, light weight and climb at V2? Oooh YESSS!!!
Boss of TQF using profanity on the RT? Unprofessional little w*****!!
The best lightweight dep we did was standing full power out of Scampton at 11 tonnes in tanks - just enough to get back to BZ. None of this poofter V2+20 (I wasn't a QFI then - and rules were for idiots!) - we climbed at V2! A ground photo shows a pitch angle of....I'd better not say. We were normally limited to 17.5 deg pitch attitude; if that gave you an IAS greater than V2+20, it was deemed OK.
But full power, light weight and climb at V2? Oooh YESSS!!!
.....did one of those max-rate jobs whilst paxing in a (light) Funbus MME-BZZ a couple of years ago. There is a noticeable "kick" of acceleration as the engines pass 90-something percent (I believe it is?).
A visit to the front end confirmed we were at FL260 about 7 mins after departure, IIRC
A visit to the front end confirmed we were at FL260 about 7 mins after departure, IIRC
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Reichman
Sorry, of course it's still flying. I remember, as a kid, plane spotting off the roof of the Queens building at LHR and writing down all the VC10 registrations, it seems so long ago, during which time lessor aircraft have vanished. Stick push eh, why the RAF kept it I'll never know!
FEBA
Sorry, of course it's still flying. I remember, as a kid, plane spotting off the roof of the Queens building at LHR and writing down all the VC10 registrations, it seems so long ago, during which time lessor aircraft have vanished. Stick push eh, why the RAF kept it I'll never know!
FEBA
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Excellent aircraft for what was known as a TTF arrival as invented by Fred R, a not so tame USAF exchange. Low slow approach over the static display with everything down, at that point full power to 1000ft (if you can stop there), tight circuit and land with full reverse. Has been known to cause extra requirements for laundry services by observers. Have to be careful as to where though,was met once by USN Commander at Boston who said your Air Commodore was most impressed, Hrrrrmp.
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Why the RAF kept it?
FEBA, you can be sure the reason it was kept was most likely that it was a cheap, paid for option that only required a non-decision to keep an AT/AAR asset. It most definately was not because, and most pointy recievers echo these as sentimemts-even the spams (post conversation with F18 mates last year), were you to ask a receiver what they wanted as an ideal tanker it would have multiple stable pods on a non-bouncy wing structure, clear of jet eflux/exhaust so ideally fuselage mounted engines, good fuel flow rate alowing packages of aircraft to leave the tanker with similar amounts of gas in tanks, smooth clean turbulance free lines and a speed stable envelope to refuel in. For minimal cost it would apear the 10 has most of these if not all going for it.
Beags...I uess when you became one of the poacher come gamekeeper types...had you fun in the jet then stopped the rest from doing it.....shame on you
Beags...I uess when you became one of the poacher come gamekeeper types...had you fun in the jet then stopped the rest from doing it.....shame on you
NO! Never stopped anyone from doing anything within the rules. Anyway, the micro-manager stopped non-Execs who used to have full powers of auth from authorising regular sqn folk - so it would have been someone else who stopped 'fun'!
Fortunately I wasn't on the Trg Flt when those highly fatigue inducing and rule breaking 'TTF arrivals' were being flown by the cowboy team with silly wannabe Top Gun 'handles'. Unbriefed displays flown by the unchosen......great example!
Fortunately I wasn't on the Trg Flt when those highly fatigue inducing and rule breaking 'TTF arrivals' were being flown by the cowboy team with silly wannabe Top Gun 'handles'. Unbriefed displays flown by the unchosen......great example!
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Hardest work I ever did whilst down in Belize flying army whirly thingies was digging a VC10 out of the mud after a Canadian exchange pilot decided to give her welly whilst the nose wheel was hard over turning onto the very wet active. Needless to say the thing went straight on and ended up buried up to the axles in mud,.
Tried everything to get her out but had to resort to digging and pulling with a Royal Engineer Vehicle. I wonder how red the Canucks face was..........we never did see him.
I think the Harrier boys gave him a score of 1.9 for his taxiing.,
Hey Beags, what was your highest landing score at Belize????
Tried everything to get her out but had to resort to digging and pulling with a Royal Engineer Vehicle. I wonder how red the Canucks face was..........we never did see him.
I think the Harrier boys gave him a score of 1.9 for his taxiing.,
Hey Beags, what was your highest landing score at Belize????
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Axel-Flo,
Know what you mean about it being 'nice' for receivers - most people I know breathe a sigh of relief when the tanker that appears out of the murk is a 10 (vice the Iron Maiden). A very 'civilised' tanker the 10.
MT
Know what you mean about it being 'nice' for receivers - most people I know breathe a sigh of relief when the tanker that appears out of the murk is a 10 (vice the Iron Maiden). A very 'civilised' tanker the 10.
MT