Tornado scares **** out of civvy helo
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Tornado scares **** out of civvy helo
This thread started on the Rotorhead Forum.
Anyone care to comment?
Tornado has near miss on Bristows Puma in Aberdeen
I know what an in house unit you guys are, but maybe, you should channel some of the testosterone on the Rotorheads thread.
Cant be easy flying at 500 kts ias and not telling anyone about it??
Please give your views on the rotorheads thread, and maybe we can understand better the issues of fast movers vs low flying civvy helo's?
Regards
MD
Anyone care to comment?
Tornado has near miss on Bristows Puma in Aberdeen
I know what an in house unit you guys are, but maybe, you should channel some of the testosterone on the Rotorheads thread.
Cant be easy flying at 500 kts ias and not telling anyone about it??
Please give your views on the rotorheads thread, and maybe we can understand better the issues of fast movers vs low flying civvy helo's?
Regards
MD
This was a potentially very serious near miss but let us look at the facts as we know them before slagging off either side.
The facts as reported are that this was a near miss between a Tornado and a Superpuma returning to Aberdeen.
The Mark of the Tornado is not known. If it was an F3 then it would have AI radar if it was a GR4 it would not.
If the Superpuma was operating on the designated Helicopter Main Route structure then it would have been at 2000ft on the Aberdeen QNH as we operate generally 3000ft outbound and 2000ft inbound in that area. This is not hard and fast as we may be higher to take advantage of a tail wind or lower to avoid icing so the height band you could expect to see a Northern N Sea helicopter is 1000ft QNH to FL80.
The airspace this happened is class G ie totally uncontrolled so the principal of see and be seen operates. Aberdeen offers a restricted RAS out to 80miles from the ADN VOR on 134.10 and a FIS on 135.175.
What can be learned from this incident.
1. If you are a fast jet pilot operating in this area then if possible avoid the height band 1000ft to FL80 and definitely don't hang around the 2000ft-3000ft band as that is where most of the helicopter traffic is.
2. If you are a helicopter pilot then don't assume that Aberdeen RAS is going to protect you. In between eating the sticky buns and coffee lookout. It is amazing what you may see!!!
3. The times I have seen Tornadoes they have been GR4s and have been below me.
HF
The facts as reported are that this was a near miss between a Tornado and a Superpuma returning to Aberdeen.
The Mark of the Tornado is not known. If it was an F3 then it would have AI radar if it was a GR4 it would not.
If the Superpuma was operating on the designated Helicopter Main Route structure then it would have been at 2000ft on the Aberdeen QNH as we operate generally 3000ft outbound and 2000ft inbound in that area. This is not hard and fast as we may be higher to take advantage of a tail wind or lower to avoid icing so the height band you could expect to see a Northern N Sea helicopter is 1000ft QNH to FL80.
The airspace this happened is class G ie totally uncontrolled so the principal of see and be seen operates. Aberdeen offers a restricted RAS out to 80miles from the ADN VOR on 134.10 and a FIS on 135.175.
What can be learned from this incident.
1. If you are a fast jet pilot operating in this area then if possible avoid the height band 1000ft to FL80 and definitely don't hang around the 2000ft-3000ft band as that is where most of the helicopter traffic is.
2. If you are a helicopter pilot then don't assume that Aberdeen RAS is going to protect you. In between eating the sticky buns and coffee lookout. It is amazing what you may see!!!
3. The times I have seen Tornadoes they have been GR4s and have been below me.
HF
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HummingFrog.
Good points, all well made.
This area of airspace definitely does not get enough visibility in the flying community and needs some form of proper control/discussion. I just know that the topic will be flavour of the month now, but it needs constant pressure.
All FJ operators I know make a mandatory call to Aberdeen when they transit the coast, and ALL of them are below 1000ft. I know, I taught most of them.
If it had been an F3 there is no guarantee he had his radar on (or even that it was servicable). Even the GR4 has a limited Air-to-Air capability (if the radar is on and it is servicable). However, no matter what mark of Tornado, there is no substitute for good airmanship and an RT call.
We are all aware of the height band of the Helicopters, but also aware of their changes, especially for icing. This puts you right into our height bracket though (and normally when the weather is at its worst).
Points for the Helicopter guys:
Never assume that there isn't some fly boy out there somewhere in his Swing Wing Arrow of Death. Be VERY aware that his lookout is probably considerably more restricted by large chunks of iron work than yours. Also, even though he is probably looking out, he is more used to the sight of other 500 mph aircraft rather than a 120 knot helicopter. Points about the Aberdeen RAS are well made.
Points for the FJ. LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT. Never assume that Aberdeen will be able to see you at 250 feet, or that he is even that interested in your VFR transit, south to north, not above 1000 feet. He has more than enought Civvy and helicopter traffic to worry about.
Hope I DONT see you soon. Save a sticky bun and a coffee for me.
Good points, all well made.
This area of airspace definitely does not get enough visibility in the flying community and needs some form of proper control/discussion. I just know that the topic will be flavour of the month now, but it needs constant pressure.
All FJ operators I know make a mandatory call to Aberdeen when they transit the coast, and ALL of them are below 1000ft. I know, I taught most of them.
If it had been an F3 there is no guarantee he had his radar on (or even that it was servicable). Even the GR4 has a limited Air-to-Air capability (if the radar is on and it is servicable). However, no matter what mark of Tornado, there is no substitute for good airmanship and an RT call.
We are all aware of the height band of the Helicopters, but also aware of their changes, especially for icing. This puts you right into our height bracket though (and normally when the weather is at its worst).
Points for the Helicopter guys:
Never assume that there isn't some fly boy out there somewhere in his Swing Wing Arrow of Death. Be VERY aware that his lookout is probably considerably more restricted by large chunks of iron work than yours. Also, even though he is probably looking out, he is more used to the sight of other 500 mph aircraft rather than a 120 knot helicopter. Points about the Aberdeen RAS are well made.
Points for the FJ. LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT. Never assume that Aberdeen will be able to see you at 250 feet, or that he is even that interested in your VFR transit, south to north, not above 1000 feet. He has more than enought Civvy and helicopter traffic to worry about.
Hope I DONT see you soon. Save a sticky bun and a coffee for me.
Ex B
Thanks for that. You never know you may see me soon but not know!! I had to hold, in my Tutor, over 27 at Leuchars for 25mins last week while the pointy things practised their landings. If you’re ever in 12 AEF the coffee is on me!! (What anonymity).
HF
Thanks for that. You never know you may see me soon but not know!! I had to hold, in my Tutor, over 27 at Leuchars for 25mins last week while the pointy things practised their landings. If you’re ever in 12 AEF the coffee is on me!! (What anonymity).
HF
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As far as I am aware the ac variant was an F3, from 56 Sqn at RAF Leuchars. They were supposedly under the control of FC at the time, but as the F3 was low level, they were not painting on any radar that the FC had access too, nor was the helo. The first that the FC knew about it was when the F3 climbed and had also appeared to **** himself. Apparently the ac tapes indicate less that 60ft sep. The pilot RTB'd immediately as he had maxed the airframe in avoiding the helo.
Due to the trg requirements of 56 Sqn they need to operate at low level on occassions and unfortunately due to fuel constraints need to operate in that area. Ideally, they would operate to the south of the HMRs but this is not practical.
I agree that this was a serious incident, and that they only way to avoid it in the future would be to establish a helicopter corridor around the HMRs. At the mo with it being Class G, it is everyman for himself. Keep a good look out for arrows of death.
Due to the trg requirements of 56 Sqn they need to operate at low level on occassions and unfortunately due to fuel constraints need to operate in that area. Ideally, they would operate to the south of the HMRs but this is not practical.
I agree that this was a serious incident, and that they only way to avoid it in the future would be to establish a helicopter corridor around the HMRs. At the mo with it being Class G, it is everyman for himself. Keep a good look out for arrows of death.
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So they maxed the airframe? Does that mean that the airframe will have to be used as a gate guardian now?
It seems crazy to me that the MOD still wont put money into some form of TCAS. Maybe if it saved the occasional maxed airframe, then payback would be swift.
Gadget - how do you mean fuel constraints? That the Tornado has only a poxy short range when doing operational training, or is it the MOD penny pinching and stopping you guys from getting the training that you want and the tax payers expect?
It seems crazy to me that the MOD still wont put money into some form of TCAS. Maybe if it saved the occasional maxed airframe, then payback would be swift.
Gadget - how do you mean fuel constraints? That the Tornado has only a poxy short range when doing operational training, or is it the MOD penny pinching and stopping you guys from getting the training that you want and the tax payers expect?
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fuel constraints - maximum of 60-70 mins airborne. 5 min transit each way leaves approx 50 mins on task. They need to comlpete approx 4 or 5 runs to DCO, and therefore the range from Leuchars is often critical.
Not so long ago, they generally operated between the Y70 and the coast, which meant avoiding the Anglia Helicopter Corridor, never an issue and they were only just outside Conningsby. Additionally, the ac were operating closer to good radar heads with better low level coverage.
Helicopter Corridor is the way forward! When I used to be an FC, low level traffic that we couldnt see was always a concern. We might only be giving a FIS at that height, but as mentioned in other threads, DoC is always at the front of your mind.
Not so long ago, they generally operated between the Y70 and the coast, which meant avoiding the Anglia Helicopter Corridor, never an issue and they were only just outside Conningsby. Additionally, the ac were operating closer to good radar heads with better low level coverage.
Helicopter Corridor is the way forward! When I used to be an FC, low level traffic that we couldnt see was always a concern. We might only be giving a FIS at that height, but as mentioned in other threads, DoC is always at the front of your mind.
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This also goes on on the "eastern" shores. A friend of mine flew Maersk helicopters from Esbjerg, EKEB. When well established going west, and the sun well below the horizon, suddenly the plan view of a German Navy? Tornado going upwards appeared in the front window - dumping flares!
Spilled the coffee
Spare him. He's now (back) with CHC.
Spilled the coffee
Spare him. He's now (back) with CHC.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Tornado
Thanks guys for the constructive replies I wasn't trying to gun for anyone in particular, just after some structured input.
Many thanks
MD
Anyone know where i can get a decent cup holder?
Many thanks
MD
Anyone know where i can get a decent cup holder?
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Crashondeck,
Quote: It seems crazy to me that the MOD still wont put money into some form of TCAS
The MOD are investing in exactly that. It's called the Collision Warning System, and is a high priority project. The technical challenges of such a system are enormous, though: aircraft in formation, lumpy terrain & OLF, non-squawkers, microlights etc etc. In the interim, 'See and Avoid' remains the safest bet.
Quote: It seems crazy to me that the MOD still wont put money into some form of TCAS
The MOD are investing in exactly that. It's called the Collision Warning System, and is a high priority project. The technical challenges of such a system are enormous, though: aircraft in formation, lumpy terrain & OLF, non-squawkers, microlights etc etc. In the interim, 'See and Avoid' remains the safest bet.
