AAC Apaches ready to go - nearly
ABIW, the first Sqn is going through it's conversion training as we speak, and the second should be staring shortly. Following combat training at Flt/Sqn/Regt level, they should be ready for ops in about a year. Possibly before the first Typhoon sqn. 
...........something to be embarressed about have we
There are no limits
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Marinisation
So, what is 'marinisation' anyway? What would need to be done to the Apache to make it sea deployable or operatable. Remember that these helis do not pick up people or land on the water.
I understand that some live firing may be done in Canada although all weapons may be fired in a multi-threat environment every day, whilst remaining firmly bolted to the ground!
I understand that some live firing may be done in Canada although all weapons may be fired in a multi-threat environment every day, whilst remaining firmly bolted to the ground!
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WL,
Salt water is extremely corrosive when in contact with untreated aircraft. I seem to recall from an earlier discussion on one of these threads that the extra weight penalty imposed when treating our slowly emerging AH would have a serious knock on effect with regards performance.
I am sure someone in the know will aquaint you will all the facts and figures but I am sure you would aggree that as it's taken this long to get the thing to the first OCU the last thing we would want is to make them go rusty any earlier
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Salt water is extremely corrosive when in contact with untreated aircraft. I seem to recall from an earlier discussion on one of these threads that the extra weight penalty imposed when treating our slowly emerging AH would have a serious knock on effect with regards performance.
I am sure someone in the know will aquaint you will all the facts and figures but I am sure you would aggree that as it's taken this long to get the thing to the first OCU the last thing we would want is to make them go rusty any earlier
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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STH
The marinisation issue for the Apache is a current MAR subject and is being dealt with by the relevant testing authority. Ship trials have been programmed for some time and will take place during the first part of this year.
WEBF.. you are right that this subject has been discussed before but your point about a high C of G is just one of the issues that makes operating an Apache from a ship a demanding exercise. The Apache is blessed with four factors that could lead to dynamic rollover and they are: high C of G, narrow undercarriage, compressible struts and a fully articulated rotor system. It is possible to achieve the critical angle where the Ac could roll on a flat surface by simply gross mishandling. You can imagine a rolling deck creates difficulties!!
The lack of marinisation is not something the Army were unaware of when the choice was made, the US chose not to go that way as the USMC work the AH1 Cobra which I believe has always been able to work of ships.
I don't believe it is possible to retro-marinise an Apache.
What Limits... marinisation, the copius application of hammerite prior to picking up the rivet gun!!!
Just love the Bushism....operatable....
ABIW.....yawn.
The marinisation issue for the Apache is a current MAR subject and is being dealt with by the relevant testing authority. Ship trials have been programmed for some time and will take place during the first part of this year.
WEBF.. you are right that this subject has been discussed before but your point about a high C of G is just one of the issues that makes operating an Apache from a ship a demanding exercise. The Apache is blessed with four factors that could lead to dynamic rollover and they are: high C of G, narrow undercarriage, compressible struts and a fully articulated rotor system. It is possible to achieve the critical angle where the Ac could roll on a flat surface by simply gross mishandling. You can imagine a rolling deck creates difficulties!!
The lack of marinisation is not something the Army were unaware of when the choice was made, the US chose not to go that way as the USMC work the AH1 Cobra which I believe has always been able to work of ships.
I don't believe it is possible to retro-marinise an Apache.
What Limits... marinisation, the copius application of hammerite prior to picking up the rivet gun!!!
Just love the Bushism....operatable....
ABIW.....yawn.
Last edited by flygunz; 12th Feb 2004 at 21:40.
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A minor distraction from the on-going speculation re: force cuts...
Apache completes trial for operations at sea
Royal Navy 1/4
The Apache Attack Helicopter – one of the most advanced helicopters in the world – yesterday completed trials on HMS Ocean that will eventually allow it to fly operations at sea.
The trials test the limits of the new helicopters to ensure they can be safely operated under the different conditions at sea. Further trials will involve other Royal Navy ships and pilot training will follow.
The completion of this trial marks an important milestone in the overall program, which aims to achieve an initial Maritime Operating Capability next year.
With the first trial now complete, the Apache – considered one of the most significant weapons systems to enter service with the British Army in recent times – can now prepare to operate from ships in support of both land and amphibious operations anywhere in the world. Minister for Defence Procurement, Lord Bach said: “Completing these trials is a major milestone in this program. Apache is a hugely flexible and formidable fighting platform and being able to operate from sea will ensure it plays a major part in all manner of operations for years to come. The successful completion of the trials has boosted the already impressive capability of this aircraft.”
The helicopter will form part of the Army’s 16 Air Assault Brigade. The Apache can be armed with a variety of weapons including Hellfire missiles, rockets and 30mm cannon rounds. With its on-board surveillance and target acquisition systems the Apache represents a major increase in capability.
I/C
Apache completes trial for operations at sea
Royal Navy 1/4
The Apache Attack Helicopter – one of the most advanced helicopters in the world – yesterday completed trials on HMS Ocean that will eventually allow it to fly operations at sea.
The trials test the limits of the new helicopters to ensure they can be safely operated under the different conditions at sea. Further trials will involve other Royal Navy ships and pilot training will follow.
The completion of this trial marks an important milestone in the overall program, which aims to achieve an initial Maritime Operating Capability next year.
With the first trial now complete, the Apache – considered one of the most significant weapons systems to enter service with the British Army in recent times – can now prepare to operate from ships in support of both land and amphibious operations anywhere in the world. Minister for Defence Procurement, Lord Bach said: “Completing these trials is a major milestone in this program. Apache is a hugely flexible and formidable fighting platform and being able to operate from sea will ensure it plays a major part in all manner of operations for years to come. The successful completion of the trials has boosted the already impressive capability of this aircraft.”
The helicopter will form part of the Army’s 16 Air Assault Brigade. The Apache can be armed with a variety of weapons including Hellfire missiles, rockets and 30mm cannon rounds. With its on-board surveillance and target acquisition systems the Apache represents a major increase in capability.
I/C
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
ABIW. Please nob off. Thanks.
Anyway, if the first CTT has been completed as reported in other threads and nearly here, then some serious issues are out there.
Akin to having a motor-race at Brands Hatch and the first 12/24 to surtees corner only have to race the Indy circuit and not the GP circuit.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 2nd Apr 2004 at 15:13.
probs at Sea?
has the AH programme had a few probs at Sea last week? We lost some slots because the AH were still there. Don,t really think AH will work out there. However could be pleasantly surprised.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Thread Starter
additional from the RN Site
Perhaps the doom and gloom merchants about the Apache's maritime potential have it all wrong,
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/cont...=1&article=785
Navy news reports that they should be cleared for shipboard use by year end. Just the small
matter of pilot training. The are most likely to be cleared for Albion and Bulwark and perhaps the new LHAs.
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/cont...=1&article=785
Navy news reports that they should be cleared for shipboard use by year end. Just the small
matter of pilot training. The are most likely to be cleared for Albion and Bulwark and perhaps the new LHAs.
Last edited by Navaleye; 19th Apr 2004 at 18:52.
Perhaps the doom and gloom merchants about the Apache's maritime potential have it all wrong,
I take it then the AH will also provide EDATF (Emergency defence of the Amphibious Task Force?)
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Navaleye,
What most people are really trying to say to is that basically you are ill informed and out of date!
This dullard approach you have is probably one of the reasons you are not part of this exciting programme?
What most people are really trying to say to is that basically you are ill informed and out of date!
This dullard approach you have is probably one of the reasons you are not part of this exciting programme?
Suspicion breeds confidence
Thread Starter
Here's some more "Ill informed and out of date" speculation - this time
from Navy News with some good pics.
Apache on the Ocean
from Navy News with some good pics.
Apache on the Ocean
Last edited by Navaleye; 11th May 2004 at 11:34.
I seem to remember that in the mid 1990s the US moved troops into the Carribean state of Haiti and amongst the ships sent was a carrier. Instead of carrying the normal air group she was carrying helicopters including Apaches. So it has been done.
According to someone who was aboard Ocean during the first phases of the trials him the idea is not to base Apache onboard on a long term basis, but to cover the landings and then proceed ashore with the bootnecks, possibly setting up a a Foward Operating base ashore.
I don't know if this means 847 NAS will get them, a AAC unit will be subordinated to CINCFLEET or if RN/RM flyers will be attached to the AAC....
Since landings can only take place when the sea is relatively calm, the stability issue is a bit of a red herring.
But without the Sea Jet is it (or the force it is part of) survivable?
According to someone who was aboard Ocean during the first phases of the trials him the idea is not to base Apache onboard on a long term basis, but to cover the landings and then proceed ashore with the bootnecks, possibly setting up a a Foward Operating base ashore.
I don't know if this means 847 NAS will get them, a AAC unit will be subordinated to CINCFLEET or if RN/RM flyers will be attached to the AAC....
Since landings can only take place when the sea is relatively calm, the stability issue is a bit of a red herring.
But without the Sea Jet is it (or the force it is part of) survivable?
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 12th Sep 2004 at 18:25.
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alltrimdoubt,
I, more than anyone in my belief has the right to say that the ethos and "modus operandi" (scuse spelling) of the AAC is more atuned to the AH64D than RAF. I do not wish to upset people however I have flown with AAC and currently fly RAF. AAC are "down in the weeds". RAF are at FL nosebleed. To understand the battlefield at battlefield level can only be achieved by someone that has put his boots on the afore mentioned. I do not decry chinook, puma etc but the personnel to operate the apache are ex-tank crew. Same SOP's different platform!
We all have our own part to play, and we all do it to the best of our ability. There is no one trade structure that is superior to any other. Without all others, one person cannot operate!
I, more than anyone in my belief has the right to say that the ethos and "modus operandi" (scuse spelling) of the AAC is more atuned to the AH64D than RAF. I do not wish to upset people however I have flown with AAC and currently fly RAF. AAC are "down in the weeds". RAF are at FL nosebleed. To understand the battlefield at battlefield level can only be achieved by someone that has put his boots on the afore mentioned. I do not decry chinook, puma etc but the personnel to operate the apache are ex-tank crew. Same SOP's different platform!
We all have our own part to play, and we all do it to the best of our ability. There is no one trade structure that is superior to any other. Without all others, one person cannot operate!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I do not decry chinook, puma etc but the personnel to operate the apache are ex-tank crew. Same SOP's different platform!
There must be a wide range of Pilots with primary trades such as Policemen, Teachers, Clerks, Engineers, Cooks, Signallers, Train drivers, Sailors etc. I've a feeling there will be very few ex-tank crews....but I may be wrong.
AAC....Soldier first!
Ex-chef............Same SOPs different hotplate!
Ex-Clerk...........Same SOPs different desk!
Ex-Policeman.....Same SOPs different beat!
you see the pattern!
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Silsoe
I can assure you that there are a great many ex tank drivers currently flying with the AAC and I know of one or two that are already in the AH programme.
You are quite correct though, the diversity of trades is huge and long may that continue. I believe that the Corps benefits from such diversity.
I can assure you that there are a great many ex tank drivers currently flying with the AAC and I know of one or two that are already in the AH programme.
You are quite correct though, the diversity of trades is huge and long may that continue. I believe that the Corps benefits from such diversity.