Gassed!
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Gassed!
Probably been here before, but the other day I had as bad a dose of CS gas as any I've experienced in the last 15 years of annual GDT/CCS (Regt Staff well pleased at the high quality of the new supplies of CS pellets!). Two questions:
1. Given refusal to participate is likely to result in a career-limiting interview, it's not really optional, so why is it allowed given the current obsession with Health and Safety in the Services?
2. How much time must be allowed between being gassed and flying in command?
The 2 arguments in favour of its continued use are as a test of the respirator (to give one confidence in the kit and drills), and that the correct conduct of the drills practised will prevent inhalation of the CS. Neither of these arguments hold water in my experience.
Glad I don't have to do it again for 12 mths (hopefully!).
1. Given refusal to participate is likely to result in a career-limiting interview, it's not really optional, so why is it allowed given the current obsession with Health and Safety in the Services?
2. How much time must be allowed between being gassed and flying in command?
The 2 arguments in favour of its continued use are as a test of the respirator (to give one confidence in the kit and drills), and that the correct conduct of the drills practised will prevent inhalation of the CS. Neither of these arguments hold water in my experience.
Glad I don't have to do it again for 12 mths (hopefully!).
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arent the regiment great! in fact, i think i know where you were overdosed on cs gas, as quite a few people mentioned it. i dont know the answers to your questions, however, it is the luck of the day as to whether you do dry drills, or end up with a knob of a regiment grunt trying to prove how tough he is!(most of them here are quite good though)... so why the variation? is there no standardisation?
whilst bitching about it, why do aircrew do IDT....!!!biggest waste of time since...... oh , CCS!
whilst bitching about it, why do aircrew do IDT....!!!biggest waste of time since...... oh , CCS!
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STH, you obviously weren't one of the 40 000+ British servicemen on the ground in the Gulf last year. If you were, I speculate that you would have felt that the arguments did "hold water".
Gentleman Aviator
IIRC flying is verboten within 24 hrs of gassing. However, aircrew may use acetone (?? the one that smells like nail varnish or pear drops) to test gas mask (sorry - respirator).
Must agree with W B's S that I was glad to know it worked ... and having seen many other nation's kit (particularly Spam's), ours seems best. (Ra ra cue waving of Uny Jackers and singing of patriotic songs
)
Must agree with W B's S that I was glad to know it worked ... and having seen many other nation's kit (particularly Spam's), ours seems best. (Ra ra cue waving of Uny Jackers and singing of patriotic songs
)
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Was in very close prox of missile exp during last scrap - it turned out to be a silk worm with nothing nasty. However, as we were being enveloped in smoke, debris etc, I was very grateful to have done my drills. It was no joke.
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Whilst not usually aggreing with that well known malingerer STH, how many days off?
..........only joking.
I think some of you have missed his point. The annual mask check is extemly important along with practicing of all the associated drills. However one of my workmates attended the same session and can testify to it's outright fu@in ferocity
I am extremely claustrophobic and just wearing a mask freaks me out but, apart from yonder years, our knuckle rubbing chums have moved away from this sort of mis treatment and I have been able to complete all my drills properly and with the minimum of distress. But to have half the chamber spluttering cos it's fun is just not on
It smacks of poor instructional technique and bullying which should not be tolerated intodays military
Hopefully it's a one off as the regt staff here in snow covered Wilts in my experiance are very good, especially the FS whose own brand of humour is most appreciated on that most dreaded day of the year
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
..........only joking. I think some of you have missed his point. The annual mask check is extemly important along with practicing of all the associated drills. However one of my workmates attended the same session and can testify to it's outright fu@in ferocity
I am extremely claustrophobic and just wearing a mask freaks me out but, apart from yonder years, our knuckle rubbing chums have moved away from this sort of mis treatment and I have been able to complete all my drills properly and with the minimum of distress. But to have half the chamber spluttering cos it's fun is just not on
It smacks of poor instructional technique and bullying which should not be tolerated intodays military Hopefully it's a one off as the regt staff here in snow covered Wilts in my experiance are very good, especially the FS whose own brand of humour is most appreciated on that most dreaded day of the year
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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4fitter
Which one, and what were you doing at Soukh Sharq at 2 in the morning
If it was the 2130 Mina Abdullah one then I assume you were earning the queen's shilling honestly then ?
Which one, and what were you doing at Soukh Sharq at 2 in the morning
If it was the 2130 Mina Abdullah one then I assume you were earning the queen's shilling honestly then ?
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STH,
Take it like a man, then buy OC Regt a beer or two and offer to take him flying. Copious application of opposite rudder and aileron will see him turn green with envy at your flying prowess. You can then explain that it all part of a very neccessary programme of annual bluntie desensitisation. After all, when you deploy the last thing you need is some bluntie becoming a casualty.
I've done CCS/GDT using the 'pear drops' stuff before as I was due to fly later the same day. The Regt had no objection at all. Most of them seen decent 'chaps' these days.
Take it like a man, then buy OC Regt a beer or two and offer to take him flying. Copious application of opposite rudder and aileron will see him turn green with envy at your flying prowess. You can then explain that it all part of a very neccessary programme of annual bluntie desensitisation. After all, when you deploy the last thing you need is some bluntie becoming a casualty.
I've done CCS/GDT using the 'pear drops' stuff before as I was due to fly later the same day. The Regt had no objection at all. Most of them seen decent 'chaps' these days.
Champagne anyone...?
ABIW
If only it were one day a year. Throw the odd det or two in and you can have endless fun with CCS, IDT, IRT WHTs etc etc. Guns and NBC is all good stuff. Section attacks? Ram it. That's TAC STO job creation and empire building at it's very worst.
If only it were one day a year. Throw the odd det or two in and you can have endless fun with CCS, IDT, IRT WHTs etc etc. Guns and NBC is all good stuff. Section attacks? Ram it. That's TAC STO job creation and empire building at it's very worst.
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SS,
Could'nt aggree more. However, and this is an observation not a dig, how have we in this Pilot driven Airforce allowed ANOTHER blunt outfit to "wag the dog" in this appaling manner
Section attacks......gun group..200...left 10 Oclock...rapid fire.....Not fuc@in once in 30 years have i needed that. And I would wager my mortgage that in the 8 years I have to do I WILL NEVER EVER NEED IT IN ANGER Putting up 12x12 for practice....how many times during IOT/ITC have we all done that, let alone mess and Sqn functions...........practice fuc@in bleedin and we need our lords and masters to put a stop to it...........not very likely tho' as they all to busy scrambling for places on the "greasy promotion pole"
Rant over
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Could'nt aggree more. However, and this is an observation not a dig, how have we in this Pilot driven Airforce allowed ANOTHER blunt outfit to "wag the dog" in this appaling manner
Section attacks......gun group..200...left 10 Oclock...rapid fire.....Not fuc@in once in 30 years have i needed that. And I would wager my mortgage that in the 8 years I have to do I WILL NEVER EVER NEED IT IN ANGER
Putting up 12x12 for practice....how many times during IOT/ITC have we all done that, let alone mess and Sqn functions...........practice fuc@in bleedin and we need our lords and masters to put a stop to it...........not very likely tho' as they all to busy scrambling for places on the "greasy promotion pole" Rant over
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Pilgrim 101
Definitely not the shopping version at 0200 !
However, my little shilling earner pails into insignificance compared to risks and exposures experienced by many more chaps and chappesses. Do believe I will have earned the gong - when I get it !!
ABIW
Agree that it should not be beasting experience, more a confidence booster. My experience of your rock hierarchy is they would be responsive reports of small boys bullying
Definitely not the shopping version at 0200 !
However, my little shilling earner pails into insignificance compared to risks and exposures experienced by many more chaps and chappesses. Do believe I will have earned the gong - when I get it !!
ABIW
Agree that it should not be beasting experience, more a confidence booster. My experience of your rock hierarchy is they would be responsive reports of small boys bullying
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Was told by our Regt staff at my last CCS that they've changed the type of CS used. After the chamber found out the new variety reactivates when you wash your face, even in cold water, fantastic. 
In 15+ yrs the chamber has taught me one thing, get your mask on as fast as you can and it ain't coming off.
In 15+ yrs the chamber has taught me one thing, get your mask on as fast as you can and it ain't coming off.
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STH.
Think yourself mighty lucky that we still only use CS.
I seem to remember one GDT lesson video, (many years ago)which purported that the USSR used real live nerve agent in some of their drills.
Try complaining after a good left nostril of that!
I would have thought that the whole purpose of the exercise is to instil confidence in both the equipment and the drills, which are a necessity to stay alive if the unthinkable were to happen.
And if it were to happen, would you be one of the first to wip the mask off and have a good snort, to get it all over with in quick time?
I suppose once a year is not sufficient – maybe it should be a monthly test – or even more often.
It is the same in any trade or profession, practice or repetition makes perfect.
And as far as a drill that may save my life is concerned –
Do I want to get that one right?
Mmmmmmm can I get back to you on that?
Think yourself mighty lucky that we still only use CS.
I seem to remember one GDT lesson video, (many years ago)which purported that the USSR used real live nerve agent in some of their drills.
Try complaining after a good left nostril of that!
I would have thought that the whole purpose of the exercise is to instil confidence in both the equipment and the drills, which are a necessity to stay alive if the unthinkable were to happen.
And if it were to happen, would you be one of the first to wip the mask off and have a good snort, to get it all over with in quick time?
I suppose once a year is not sufficient – maybe it should be a monthly test – or even more often.
It is the same in any trade or profession, practice or repetition makes perfect.
And as far as a drill that may save my life is concerned –
Do I want to get that one right?
Mmmmmmm can I get back to you on that?
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I think all you serving chaps should be very grateful that you haven't been ordered to hand in your respirators and NBC kit
Do the training sans complaining it may save your life one day.
Do the training sans complaining it may save your life one day.
Champagne anyone...?
Oh FFS FEBA 
We are all well aware that the drills will one day save our lives thank you. I have no gripe with NBC drills or weapon training - this is the military after all.
Having done one war and two in-theatre dets in the last year I am well aware of how handy these things are.
My gripe, and that of others, is that the Regt (or more accurately the TAC STO lot) are going way, way overboard with it all now. I would happily do monthly WHTs and 6 monthly NBC training as those are valuable skills that need maintaining and not buffing up in a mad panic just before we all launch off to war again. What I and my colleagues have no need of are section attacks, camping lessons, putting up 12x12s and lighting tilly lamps. This is completely unnessecary, timewasting garbage. The unnecessary faff this creates for the boys and girls just before they go on det is ridiculous.
If we have got the funds and manpower to run this sort of crap then perhaps someone could find the cash to plug the gaps in our primary role training; I can safely say that if we are going to lose det personnel it won't be because of a tilly lamp or an inability to lead a section attack across a playing field.
They are losing the plot. If they are going to give us stuff then give us useful things. Like I said, I for one would happily see an increased currency for WHT and NBC in exchange for binning all the other trash. I reckon most of the Regt Instructors would probably be glad to see the back of it too.
This isn't molly-coddled trucky whining just exasperation at the ever increasing mountains of rubbish we have to climb just to get our people away on det. I just wish someone would grab this and sort it out.
We are all well aware that the drills will one day save our lives thank you. I have no gripe with NBC drills or weapon training - this is the military after all.
Having done one war and two in-theatre dets in the last year I am well aware of how handy these things are.
My gripe, and that of others, is that the Regt (or more accurately the TAC STO lot) are going way, way overboard with it all now. I would happily do monthly WHTs and 6 monthly NBC training as those are valuable skills that need maintaining and not buffing up in a mad panic just before we all launch off to war again. What I and my colleagues have no need of are section attacks, camping lessons, putting up 12x12s and lighting tilly lamps. This is completely unnessecary, timewasting garbage. The unnecessary faff this creates for the boys and girls just before they go on det is ridiculous.
If we have got the funds and manpower to run this sort of crap then perhaps someone could find the cash to plug the gaps in our primary role training; I can safely say that if we are going to lose det personnel it won't be because of a tilly lamp or an inability to lead a section attack across a playing field.
They are losing the plot. If they are going to give us stuff then give us useful things. Like I said, I for one would happily see an increased currency for WHT and NBC in exchange for binning all the other trash. I reckon most of the Regt Instructors would probably be glad to see the back of it too.
This isn't molly-coddled trucky whining just exasperation at the ever increasing mountains of rubbish we have to climb just to get our people away on det. I just wish someone would grab this and sort it out.
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SS
I'm not going to ask you what FFS means, I'm sure it's not complimentary.
My last post was a dig at Hoon and his cohorts with regards to kit shortages. Perhaps I camouflaged it too well. When I worked for Windsor Security Ltd we were always involved in tasks we considered repetative and unnecessary, was every thus and ever will be. NBC drills were always completed without grudge. At that time NI was very active, CS was a reality and not a game.
I thought Hutton's findings would be the start of better things to come for the services, In that Hoon would go and President Blair would follow, or vv. The opposite is true, mores the pity for you lot.
Good luck with your gas gas gas drills, I don't envy you.
Regards
FEBA
I'm not going to ask you what FFS means, I'm sure it's not complimentary.
My last post was a dig at Hoon and his cohorts with regards to kit shortages. Perhaps I camouflaged it too well. When I worked for Windsor Security Ltd we were always involved in tasks we considered repetative and unnecessary, was every thus and ever will be. NBC drills were always completed without grudge. At that time NI was very active, CS was a reality and not a game.
I thought Hutton's findings would be the start of better things to come for the services, In that Hoon would go and President Blair would follow, or vv. The opposite is true, mores the pity for you lot.
Good luck with your gas gas gas drills, I don't envy you.
Regards
FEBA
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Gassed
FFS=For Flip's Sake?
Just to reiterate (going all the way back to my first post on the thread) I have no problem with wearing NBC IPE, nor do I object to testing it in a CS chamber. I remember during initial training that the idea was to give everyone a taste of CS, so that in the future, exposure would be recognised during the testing of the face wellington Mk S6/S10. I suppose that argument had a certain strange logic to it.
I have no objections to doing the drills (and I have to say, in their defence, that the Regt are pretty 'grown-up' about this where I am). I merely question the apparent requirement to use CS. Amyl Acetate is used in addition to the CS at my unit to ensure your welly fits before going into the chamber, so what does the rest of it prove?
As for onfidence in the kit, I don't doubt that we have some of the best kit in the world, but even following the book to the letter I had a mask half full of snot and tears after only 2 of the drills. Confidence in my respirator? 100% Confidence in the drills? I'm with Maniac on that. Get the mask on, get buddy checked and leave it on!
On the subject of the 'best kit in the world', why are we still 'forward-assisting' the breach block after cocking the new improved rifle L85 A2? Confidence in the kit? Not as such.
Just to reiterate (going all the way back to my first post on the thread) I have no problem with wearing NBC IPE, nor do I object to testing it in a CS chamber. I remember during initial training that the idea was to give everyone a taste of CS, so that in the future, exposure would be recognised during the testing of the face wellington Mk S6/S10. I suppose that argument had a certain strange logic to it.
I have no objections to doing the drills (and I have to say, in their defence, that the Regt are pretty 'grown-up' about this where I am). I merely question the apparent requirement to use CS. Amyl Acetate is used in addition to the CS at my unit to ensure your welly fits before going into the chamber, so what does the rest of it prove?
As for onfidence in the kit, I don't doubt that we have some of the best kit in the world, but even following the book to the letter I had a mask half full of snot and tears after only 2 of the drills. Confidence in my respirator? 100% Confidence in the drills? I'm with Maniac on that. Get the mask on, get buddy checked and leave it on!
On the subject of the 'best kit in the world', why are we still 'forward-assisting' the breach block after cocking the new improved rifle L85 A2? Confidence in the kit? Not as such.
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 30th Jan 2004 at 05:46.
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I seem to remember raising the health & safety question not long before I left a couple of years ago. The answer was that the legislation catered for exemptions for essential training.
I hated the CS trip as much as the next guy, but I realise why they do it. Most of pay lip service to this type of training, going through the motions. However, knowing that it will be nasty if you don't do it right in the first place, concentrates the mind.
As for building tents, etc, you'd be surprised at the ineptitude of those who'd never been taught how to do it. Given the demo/practice makes setting up a campsite a much slicker affair, especially when time is tight. I'm talking from practical experience - when it's pi**ing down in stair-rods, the guys who knew got into dry environment much quicker than the rest (well, would have done had they not immediately charged around helping the rest).
I hated the CS trip as much as the next guy, but I realise why they do it. Most of pay lip service to this type of training, going through the motions. However, knowing that it will be nasty if you don't do it right in the first place, concentrates the mind.
As for building tents, etc, you'd be surprised at the ineptitude of those who'd never been taught how to do it. Given the demo/practice makes setting up a campsite a much slicker affair, especially when time is tight. I'm talking from practical experience - when it's pi**ing down in stair-rods, the guys who knew got into dry environment much quicker than the rest (well, would have done had they not immediately charged around helping the rest).
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Gassed
STH, the new advert for the RAF appears to back up folks perceptions of RAF Personnel, particularly when we have complaints about valid training methods like yours. The nasty CS gas is used surely so that peolple don't take shortcuts in training and develop bad practice. If they used sweet smelling gases such as the 'Pear Drop' smelling stuff, folk wouldn't take their drills seriously.
ABIW, if you're that claustrophophic, should you be in the job? I'd hate to see you taken by the enemy and that little pearl of information to be discovered. If you really are that fearful of enclosed spaces (And not just making an excuse to get out of CCS etc) then I would think that it wouldn't take long before you would sing like a canary.
ABIW, if you're that claustrophophic, should you be in the job? I'd hate to see you taken by the enemy and that little pearl of information to be discovered. If you really are that fearful of enclosed spaces (And not just making an excuse to get out of CCS etc) then I would think that it wouldn't take long before you would sing like a canary.