Operational Standd-own
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Operational Standd-own
Apparently Ice Station Kilo is scrapping any standdown after Op Telic dets so that they can get the leave stats sorted. I know we're not officially entitled because we don't do it in a single '4 month block', just every year (or more) for the last x years ++ for two months at a time. Guess that doesn't count.
Anyone else in the same situation? i.e. sh1te local commanders
Anyone else in the same situation? i.e. sh1te local commanders
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Where I work we try to give a day off per weekend worked if the det doesn't qualify for Post Op Deployment Leave (PODL). But this cannot always be done if the continued task dictates that individuals need to be at work. Also, if an individual has made no attempt to use their leave, why shouldn't they be made to take leave? I make my folks use leave to attend the Ski Champs too, but if at the end of the Leave Year, they need more time off, and they have served on det and not have standdown, or I have asked them to lose leave in lieu of a exped, I will flex them some free time off.
All down to how busy your unit is - The old chesnut about the Boss being able to turn around and say no to any further commitmets is pie in the sky. If their Airships say jump, we still have to ask how high. Saying no will do nothing except p/ss/ng of their airships.
HPT
All down to how busy your unit is - The old chesnut about the Boss being able to turn around and say no to any further commitmets is pie in the sky. If their Airships say jump, we still have to ask how high. Saying no will do nothing except p/ss/ng of their airships.
HPT
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Perhaps you should tie this thread in with the one about the latest, crap RAF advert. Their Airships want to tell Joe Public how important the individual is and how much you are valued and cherished in the RAF!
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Hydraulic Palm Tree
Oooooh, you are all heart.........
You dispicable waste of space! I hope I never have to work with you old chap.
VALUED! HA! I can't believe you make your personnel take their leave when they go on Expeds.
Listen very carefully......
IAW AP3342 Leaflet 1012: All personnel taking part on expeds are to be annotated as 'on duty.' Therefore, for legal reasons, personnel shall not be 'on leave' when participating on Expeds.
You as a Flt Cdr/Sect Hd etc. who asks personnel to to take leave for Expeds will be held accountable at any legal proceedings that may arise.
If you are just asking them to 'lose' leave in lieu then you are applying pressure on them to do something they really shouldn't be doing.
Expeds are one of the few decent privileges we have left in the armed forces. 'Losing' leave would discourage personnel to go on them, making your personnel feel very under-valued!
M7
You dispicable waste of space! I hope I never have to work with you old chap.
VALUED! HA! I can't believe you make your personnel take their leave when they go on Expeds.
Listen very carefully......
IAW AP3342 Leaflet 1012: All personnel taking part on expeds are to be annotated as 'on duty.' Therefore, for legal reasons, personnel shall not be 'on leave' when participating on Expeds.
You as a Flt Cdr/Sect Hd etc. who asks personnel to to take leave for Expeds will be held accountable at any legal proceedings that may arise.
If you are just asking them to 'lose' leave in lieu then you are applying pressure on them to do something they really shouldn't be doing.
Expeds are one of the few decent privileges we have left in the armed forces. 'Losing' leave would discourage personnel to go on them, making your personnel feel very under-valued!
M7
Champagne anyone...?
HPT
Gotta agree M7 there. If you can't spare the guys time to go on exped then they can't go on exped.
Asking them to take leave is a) I believe, illegal (see above) and b) a bit crap.
I'm not an "exped" person myself, but as M7 says, expeds must be one of the few perks left for those that are.
If we worked for a caring sharing employer then somebody might be commenting on the amount of leave that is going untaken at the end of the leave year. But we don't so they're not.
PS. Please note this doesn't apply to me.
We ain't very busy at the mo
Gotta agree M7 there. If you can't spare the guys time to go on exped then they can't go on exped.
Asking them to take leave is a) I believe, illegal (see above) and b) a bit crap.
I'm not an "exped" person myself, but as M7 says, expeds must be one of the few perks left for those that are.
If we worked for a caring sharing employer then somebody might be commenting on the amount of leave that is going untaken at the end of the leave year. But we don't so they're not.
PS. Please note this doesn't apply to me.
We ain't very busy at the mo
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Simply put in a leave application for the period that you are deployed!! Denied for Service reasons, next leave pass during Duty Sqn - Denied again. Don't take Block Leave - you don't have to (but expect SDO/Ord Sgt etc) and then redress your Boss at the end of the year!
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MCS and SS
You both beat me to it fella's and have pointed out the blindingly obvious!!............HPT, if this is a classic example of your man management skills you truely are a Nob
.......... and the worst of it is, folks, I THINK I know who the idiot is.........god help the rotary world
VR has got it in one, put in leave for when you want it, have it rejected for service reasons and then maybe, just maybe, your spineless promotion chasing bosses will see the so called "stats" change in your favour.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
You both beat me to it fella's and have pointed out the blindingly obvious!!............HPT, if this is a classic example of your man management skills you truely are a Nob
.......... and the worst of it is, folks, I THINK I know who the idiot is.........god help the rotary world VR has got it in one, put in leave for when you want it, have it rejected for service reasons and then maybe, just maybe, your spineless promotion chasing bosses will see the so called "stats" change in your favour.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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HPT - Interested in your caring attitude to your 'folks'
What happens if one of them has an accident on the slopes during the 'RAF Ski Champs'?
I assume that because you have forced them to take leave to attend the championships, they are not on duty and therefore the RAF (including you) will not give a to$$ about their welfare.
Or will you flex them some free time off?.......
What happens if one of them has an accident on the slopes during the 'RAF Ski Champs'?
I assume that because you have forced them to take leave to attend the championships, they are not on duty and therefore the RAF (including you) will not give a to$$ about their welfare.
Or will you flex them some free time off?.......
VR
HPT isn't the only one who applies those rules, my place of work also requires people on exped to put leave in, albeit only if it is their 2nd one in a year.
Unfortunatley your cunning plan doesn't work because all a difficult boss has to do is look through the leave book and find enough gaps in it where you could have taken your leave and deny you the carrying over to next year. We have been through it time again and again here, and as always you can't win.
If HPT is rotary I think we must be run by his dad and evil uncles
The best method is plan ahead if possible and try and make sure your desk gets on enough to let everyone get some leave when they want it ........... I know it's not always possible but it's probably as good as it gets
HPT isn't the only one who applies those rules, my place of work also requires people on exped to put leave in, albeit only if it is their 2nd one in a year.
Unfortunatley your cunning plan doesn't work because all a difficult boss has to do is look through the leave book and find enough gaps in it where you could have taken your leave and deny you the carrying over to next year. We have been through it time again and again here, and as always you can't win.
If HPT is rotary I think we must be run by his dad and evil uncles
The best method is plan ahead if possible and try and make sure your desk gets on enough to let everyone get some leave when they want it ........... I know it's not always possible but it's probably as good as it gets
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EXPED ALLOWANCES
Agree whole-heartedly with the responses to HPT's message; whose only possible defence is that irresistable direction is coming from above ... hope you have it in writing HPT!
One other thing occurs; pers on Expeds are, I believe, entitled to certain allowances (cash for food (CILOR?) etc) or Service support (transport, accomm, PTI etc). Surely entitlement to these requires the individuals benefiting to be 'On Duty'. That being the case, are they committing or being encouraged to commit fraud?
Back to the original point, there does seem to be some variation in the way the stand-down periods are being applied at different Units. It seems to me that the deciding factor should be the nature and length of the detached employment. Most require Saturdays to be worked, some are on permanent rotating shifts, with only enough space between cycles for rest and doing the doby. Some enable detachees to take R&R, but some don't.
Surely it can't be beyond PMA to provide guidance?
One other thing occurs; pers on Expeds are, I believe, entitled to certain allowances (cash for food (CILOR?) etc) or Service support (transport, accomm, PTI etc). Surely entitlement to these requires the individuals benefiting to be 'On Duty'. That being the case, are they committing or being encouraged to commit fraud?
Back to the original point, there does seem to be some variation in the way the stand-down periods are being applied at different Units. It seems to me that the deciding factor should be the nature and length of the detached employment. Most require Saturdays to be worked, some are on permanent rotating shifts, with only enough space between cycles for rest and doing the doby. Some enable detachees to take R&R, but some don't.
Surely it can't be beyond PMA to provide guidance?
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I do not make people sign off on leave for expeds - as you have all said that is not permitted. I said I ask them to lose leave in lieu of time spent on exped, therefore, they all attend on duty. However, if they have loads of leave left and have not made any effort to plan ahead and use their leave, I do ask them to lose some in lieu. Likewise, if they have used/planned all their leave and want to go on an exped, well that's fine too, as long as we can spare them going.
As I have said, I flex people time off if require at the end of the season if needed, so what exactly is the problem?
Vage Rot has hit the nail on the head, plan ahead, get the passes signed and do not let the flt cdr throw them in the bin without signature. I sign all of the ones presented to me, approved or not. This is what we should be doing and then we may have better representation when PMA do the sums - at the moment there isn't a percieved problem because nobody follows this mantra.
ABIW - I think you know me better than that - You know where I am so call me.
STH
PMA do provide guidance on standdown - its called the PODL policy. Less than 2 months and you get knowt - perhaps I should apply this policy to the letter of the law as well since you all want to follow the regulations without any flexible interpretation/common sense.
HPT
As I have said, I flex people time off if require at the end of the season if needed, so what exactly is the problem?
Vage Rot has hit the nail on the head, plan ahead, get the passes signed and do not let the flt cdr throw them in the bin without signature. I sign all of the ones presented to me, approved or not. This is what we should be doing and then we may have better representation when PMA do the sums - at the moment there isn't a percieved problem because nobody follows this mantra.
ABIW - I think you know me better than that - You know where I am so call me.
STH
PMA do provide guidance on standdown - its called the PODL policy. Less than 2 months and you get knowt - perhaps I should apply this policy to the letter of the law as well since you all want to follow the regulations without any flexible interpretation/common sense.
HPT
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HPT
Hmmm perhaps some room for interpretation of your original comment, but I still don't think what you are doing is right.
As others have suggested, what people need to do is submit the passes and get them rejected, even to have a chance of carrying over more than the standard permitted. The fundamental problem with this argument is that it assumes next year will be better. With the current overstretch, this is simply not going to happen. Oh, and by the way, unless leave is for a booked (foreign) holiday, all long-term applications for leave at my Unit are held as provisional until a few weeks before it the leave is due to commence.
Perhaps block leave may help some people ... chance would be a fine thing on a 24/7 unit!
I make my folks use leave to attend the Ski Champs too, but if at the end of the Leave Year, they need more time off, and they have served on det and not have standdown, or I have asked them to lose leave in lieu of a exped, I will flex them some free time off.
As others have suggested, what people need to do is submit the passes and get them rejected, even to have a chance of carrying over more than the standard permitted. The fundamental problem with this argument is that it assumes next year will be better. With the current overstretch, this is simply not going to happen. Oh, and by the way, unless leave is for a booked (foreign) holiday, all long-term applications for leave at my Unit are held as provisional until a few weeks before it the leave is due to commence.
Perhaps block leave may help some people ... chance would be a fine thing on a 24/7 unit!
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Cash in lieu of leave is probably never going to happen. Some people would probably abuse it for the cash when they really need leave. Why not keep a tally of leave lost for service reasons and apply it by counting back from a chap's retirement date? And not the poxy 15 days - all of it. Too simple? Too honest?
C@nts.
C@nts.
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Just to stir the pot of volatile liquid even further!!
What about weekends? We lost 12 days from our annual leave entitlement a few years ago as we don't work weekends anymore and so that time off can be taken as granted (Not required for duty).
Well, unless you are a Blunty, we do work weekends - and regularly, often without a day in lieu. (My worst period was 9 weeks without a clear weekend- and that was in the UK!)
Again, unless we put in leave passes for weekends then the Blunties that run our empire will never admit that there is a problem. Put the applications in and get them signed "Not approved". Its the only way, the boss might think you're taking the P!ss if you put in 52 weekends worth at once though!
Perhaps the Admin branch might be hit this time around in defence review? After all it must be the ONE branch that is just begging to be 'civillianised'.
I feel a big Rant coming on
What about weekends? We lost 12 days from our annual leave entitlement a few years ago as we don't work weekends anymore and so that time off can be taken as granted (Not required for duty).
Well, unless you are a Blunty, we do work weekends - and regularly, often without a day in lieu. (My worst period was 9 weeks without a clear weekend- and that was in the UK!)
Again, unless we put in leave passes for weekends then the Blunties that run our empire will never admit that there is a problem. Put the applications in and get them signed "Not approved". Its the only way, the boss might think you're taking the P!ss if you put in 52 weekends worth at once though!
Perhaps the Admin branch might be hit this time around in defence review? After all it must be the ONE branch that is just begging to be 'civillianised'.
I feel a big Rant coming on
Don't the Canadians have that system? You carry forward all unused leave and retire early by the amount of lost leave? But you still get paid until the 'real' retirment date - including any pay rises etc. The system can't actually replace you until you've fully retired, so it isn't really a particularly clever strategy, more of a way of compensating people for short term manning deficiency induced embug.gerance.
When I PVR'd, I calculated my entitlements with great care. Refused even take any 'fill-in' days over the 2002-3 Christmas/New Year period but turned up in blunty-blues and did some paper pushing even though I knew damn well that there'd be no-one else in. Then finally had 4 fully-paid fully-entitled months of annual/terminal/resettlement leave enjoying the summer! Even got a pay rise...
Yes, leave and expeds need to be managed. The biggest problem I used to have when I was a deputy Flt Cdr was getting my chums to tell me what leave they wanted in sufficient time to do some forward planning. We had guidelines, so that we didn't have everyone away at once - I used to ask them to give me the dates of at least 4 of the 6 weeks annual leave they were entitled to as soon as they could, then up it went on the board. Birds and worms - first come, first served. The others then negotiated around the known plan before we fixed it. The other 2 of the 6 weeks they could sort out later - but we needed a certain minimum number to be present to keep things going. I then knew what my 'assets' were - and could identify well in advance when we could accept additional training tasks. Not popular with the "I want my golden child to do an early Co-Capt course so he'll get promoted sooner" type of sqn boss - but it worked very well and hardly any re-shuffling was ever needed.
It's a question of allocating tasks within the available assets; then no-one gets messed around and stupid knee-jerk 'management initiatives' can be robustly opposed on the evidence of staff availability. But Op Deny Christmas could always be guaranteed to wreck even our most careful plans!
When I PVR'd, I calculated my entitlements with great care. Refused even take any 'fill-in' days over the 2002-3 Christmas/New Year period but turned up in blunty-blues and did some paper pushing even though I knew damn well that there'd be no-one else in. Then finally had 4 fully-paid fully-entitled months of annual/terminal/resettlement leave enjoying the summer! Even got a pay rise...
Yes, leave and expeds need to be managed. The biggest problem I used to have when I was a deputy Flt Cdr was getting my chums to tell me what leave they wanted in sufficient time to do some forward planning. We had guidelines, so that we didn't have everyone away at once - I used to ask them to give me the dates of at least 4 of the 6 weeks annual leave they were entitled to as soon as they could, then up it went on the board. Birds and worms - first come, first served. The others then negotiated around the known plan before we fixed it. The other 2 of the 6 weeks they could sort out later - but we needed a certain minimum number to be present to keep things going. I then knew what my 'assets' were - and could identify well in advance when we could accept additional training tasks. Not popular with the "I want my golden child to do an early Co-Capt course so he'll get promoted sooner" type of sqn boss - but it worked very well and hardly any re-shuffling was ever needed.
It's a question of allocating tasks within the available assets; then no-one gets messed around and stupid knee-jerk 'management initiatives' can be robustly opposed on the evidence of staff availability. But Op Deny Christmas could always be guaranteed to wreck even our most careful plans!
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Beagle,
You should set yourself up as a consultant and visit Ice Station Kilo.!!
.............................on second thoughts, a sensible idea like your's would never catch on up there as they have 'always done it that way!'
You should set yourself up as a consultant and visit Ice Station Kilo.!!
.............................on second thoughts, a sensible idea like your's would never catch on up there as they have 'always done it that way!'
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VR,
Keeps stating the bleedin obvious but until we ALL follow his lead nothing will change.
Instead of looking in the leave book to try and fit in with everyone else put a leave pass in for what YOU WANT If leave rejections keep hitting handbrake house the "stats" must change and maybe something will get done to sort this appaling situation out.
Your bosses supposition that you CAN ALWAYS get your leave may be right but how many of us can actually get all our leave in WHEN WE WANT IT, and until we make it blindingly obvious to Blunt Command how bad the situation is your only outlet will be to bleat about it on here.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Keeps stating the bleedin obvious but until we ALL follow his lead nothing will change.
Instead of looking in the leave book to try and fit in with everyone else put a leave pass in for what YOU WANT
If leave rejections keep hitting handbrake house the "stats" must change and maybe something will get done to sort this appaling situation out. Your bosses supposition that you CAN ALWAYS get your leave may be right but how many of us can actually get all our leave in WHEN WE WANT IT, and until we make it blindingly obvious to Blunt Command how bad the situation is your only outlet will be to bleat about it on here.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Don't know the policy with regards to weekends with you chaps, but to "guarantee" a day off in a weekend, we must put in a leave pass, and include either the Friday or the Monday, therefore taking a days annual leave. Seems a little crap to me, that to have the best chance of getting my Saturday night, or whatever it may be, I have to use annual leave.