Hoon is "sorry"
Thread Starter
Hoon is "sorry"
I can't believe the gall of the man. He seems to think that being sorry and saying that Ministers sent 36000 sets of body armour to theatre makes everything OK.
BBC News story on Sgt Roberts (killed without Body Armour)
My thoughts are with Sgt Roberts' widow. My wife cried listening to the tape he'd made just before his death - he knew he was poorly equipped but carried on anyway. Bravery that is being betrayed by the lack of moral fibre being shown by those more 'senior'.
BBC News story on Sgt Roberts (killed without Body Armour)
My thoughts are with Sgt Roberts' widow. My wife cried listening to the tape he'd made just before his death - he knew he was poorly equipped but carried on anyway. Bravery that is being betrayed by the lack of moral fibre being shown by those more 'senior'.
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Propulike:
I agree with you 100% mate, sadly the truth is and has been for years that our defence forces are permanently ill equipped for the task, but the boys and girls still get up and get on with it.
Its a massive compliment to the character of the personnel, past and present, and unfortunately future of the armed forces that they do the job under such conditions.
This time though, lack of equipment has directly cost a man his life.. needlessly, and in full glare of the public.
Hoon should do the decent thing and resign, but everyone involved in the budget and decision making process from Hoon down, has this guys blood on their hands. I hope they can all live with their consciences.
Once and for all GIVE OUR PEOPLE THE EQUIPMENT, PERSONNEL AND FUNDING TO DO THE DAMN JOB, OR DON'T SEND THEM TO DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Rant over.
I agree with you 100% mate, sadly the truth is and has been for years that our defence forces are permanently ill equipped for the task, but the boys and girls still get up and get on with it.
Its a massive compliment to the character of the personnel, past and present, and unfortunately future of the armed forces that they do the job under such conditions.
This time though, lack of equipment has directly cost a man his life.. needlessly, and in full glare of the public.
Hoon should do the decent thing and resign, but everyone involved in the budget and decision making process from Hoon down, has this guys blood on their hands. I hope they can all live with their consciences.
Once and for all GIVE OUR PEOPLE THE EQUIPMENT, PERSONNEL AND FUNDING TO DO THE DAMN JOB, OR DON'T SEND THEM TO DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Rant over.
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I think they are hanging on to Hoon so he can take the dive when this other report comes out, he will probably ask for other cases to be taken into concideration, wipe the slate clean for the next chap.
Don't know what he has been offered but it must be something good.
Lord Hoon anybody?
Don't know what he has been offered but it must be something good.
Lord Hoon anybody?
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Radio 2 interview and Bafoon this lunchtime admits responsibility for minor failings in equipment supplies in the Gulf Really! Gosh!
But still claims the logistics operation a great success, perhaps he means the unfortunate repatriation of those killed in action!
Those “minor” failings have cost lives, when will those in power ever wake up to the reality of that.
If we were a true business, although budgetary it feels like we are, he as CEO would be hauled before the courts by the H&S Exec for failing to provide adequate protection to employees. I for one, as have most of the forces personnel, have a “can do” approach which unfortunately is what government relies on.
Falklands, GW1 all had the same problems and we were promised never again.
I'll await the rehashed version from this lot.
But still claims the logistics operation a great success, perhaps he means the unfortunate repatriation of those killed in action!
Those “minor” failings have cost lives, when will those in power ever wake up to the reality of that.
If we were a true business, although budgetary it feels like we are, he as CEO would be hauled before the courts by the H&S Exec for failing to provide adequate protection to employees. I for one, as have most of the forces personnel, have a “can do” approach which unfortunately is what government relies on.
Falklands, GW1 all had the same problems and we were promised never again.
I'll await the rehashed version from this lot.
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It has been said by many that today’s British fighting man/woman may not be up to the level of past generations, I disagree. It is my feeling that the levels of professionalism and bravery shown by those who fought in the service of this country over the last 25 years are a continuance of a proud tradition.
There should be a vote of no confidence in the MOD and the Blair administration over the handling of the conflict in Iraq. I do not mean the “should we or should we not have invaded question”. I mean at a more basic level. We sent out troops in harm’s way woefully ill equipped. As was stated on the BBC by a pundit this morning, this was not a snap war. This was planned well in advance and yet we still could not get enough basic items to the right places at the right times.
I am not clear on the MOD’s duty of care towards those in uniform but I would hate to think that this situation was deemed “an acceptable result of war”.
Hoon has to go, there is no other course of action. If Blair has any common decency, he should go to but that is a faint hope.
Britain has the best trained, most professional and most loyal armed forces in the world. They deserve the best.
I must stop here as the more I write the angrier I get. I am finding it increasingly difficult to verbalise my feelings on this subject.
Cheers
BHR
There should be a vote of no confidence in the MOD and the Blair administration over the handling of the conflict in Iraq. I do not mean the “should we or should we not have invaded question”. I mean at a more basic level. We sent out troops in harm’s way woefully ill equipped. As was stated on the BBC by a pundit this morning, this was not a snap war. This was planned well in advance and yet we still could not get enough basic items to the right places at the right times.
I am not clear on the MOD’s duty of care towards those in uniform but I would hate to think that this situation was deemed “an acceptable result of war”.
Hoon has to go, there is no other course of action. If Blair has any common decency, he should go to but that is a faint hope.
Britain has the best trained, most professional and most loyal armed forces in the world. They deserve the best.
I must stop here as the more I write the angrier I get. I am finding it increasingly difficult to verbalise my feelings on this subject.
Cheers
BHR
Yes, Him
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Lord Trenchard's Brat wrote:
I would amend the last few words to read:
"...what this government repeatedly takes advantage of."
And "Sorry" is just not good enough when people are killed.
I for one, as have most of the forces personnel, have a “can do” approach which unfortunately is what government relies on.
"...what this government repeatedly takes advantage of."
And "Sorry" is just not good enough when people are killed.
Thread Starter
After listening to the interview on Radio 2 with Jeremy Vine, Buff is claiming the logistics effort, kitting levels etc a great success!
God help us if we ever get a failure.
There were plenty of 'phone calls from serving personnel and reservists stating how much they'd spent of their own cash to make up for shortfalls in kitting levels, and of basic equipment simply not being available to deploy (medics especially concerning). I don't know anyone who hasn't 'bought their own' kit. Are Buff et al trying to tell us that we haven't?!!!
It's real people, real lives, real families. Our Minister needs to stand up for us, not hide behind unrealistic reports whilst minceing about accepting cut after cut after cut.
Good luck on Monday Mrs Roberts. And God Bless.
God help us if we ever get a failure.
There were plenty of 'phone calls from serving personnel and reservists stating how much they'd spent of their own cash to make up for shortfalls in kitting levels, and of basic equipment simply not being available to deploy (medics especially concerning). I don't know anyone who hasn't 'bought their own' kit. Are Buff et al trying to tell us that we haven't?!!!
It's real people, real lives, real families. Our Minister needs to stand up for us, not hide behind unrealistic reports whilst minceing about accepting cut after cut after cut.
Good luck on Monday Mrs Roberts. And God Bless.
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He also said on Radio2:
"British servicemen should never have to buy their own kit"
Sorry but if it's a choice between standing in the rain moaning about what we didn't get issued or standing in the rain moaning about having had to buy it ourselves, then I'm afraid I'll spend a bit of cash every time.
After all, moan all you like, it won't stop raining. Obviously it's unfortunate that the majority have to self-equip but what else are they gonna do, and I suspect HMG know this and exploit it to the max.
Guess what it'll take is a mass revolt with everyone refusing to go somehwere until they get the right kit....
And Satan will be skating to work before that happens.
So... so far we've got Hoon on kit shortages that cost lives, a dodgy dossier that casts a shadow over the whole GWII and a crap advertising campaign.
I hope Geoff's able to "feel this valued" in a couple of weeks!
"British servicemen should never have to buy their own kit"
Sorry but if it's a choice between standing in the rain moaning about what we didn't get issued or standing in the rain moaning about having had to buy it ourselves, then I'm afraid I'll spend a bit of cash every time.
After all, moan all you like, it won't stop raining. Obviously it's unfortunate that the majority have to self-equip but what else are they gonna do, and I suspect HMG know this and exploit it to the max.
Guess what it'll take is a mass revolt with everyone refusing to go somehwere until they get the right kit....
And Satan will be skating to work before that happens.
So... so far we've got Hoon on kit shortages that cost lives, a dodgy dossier that casts a shadow over the whole GWII and a crap advertising campaign.
I hope Geoff's able to "feel this valued" in a couple of weeks!
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If you buy your own kit/tools to carry out your "job" then why not submit a claim to the IR. Should make a few people wake up. One guy worked out he's spent over £2000 on kit in the last few years, mainly for Gulf ops. That would be quite a few beer vouchers if the tax relief was claimed. 
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Resign..... NOW!
That means quit, not put your signature there again.
As an aside, people are talking about kit not being available. It used to be that it was there, but useless for the intended task. Has this improved? My issue pro boots were great, but my flying kit was poor quality. I now fly with a wonderful police leather jacket, which is warm, hardwearing and smart. Now there's an idea.......
That means quit, not put your signature there again.
As an aside, people are talking about kit not being available. It used to be that it was there, but useless for the intended task. Has this improved? My issue pro boots were great, but my flying kit was poor quality. I now fly with a wonderful police leather jacket, which is warm, hardwearing and smart. Now there's an idea.......
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On the radio this morning (Radio 5) Buff stated that there were 36,000 sets of body armour in theatre. I am incredulous that a guy in a tank in the front line didn't have body armour whilst I, way way way back in the rear, was not allowed to fly into Kuwait Internat from out of theatre for 2 hours unless I had armour with me!
I for one get a bit annoyed at people always calling for ministers' heads. The most notorious of these was of course Two Jags who did so after every rail crash and indeed after Lockerbie. However in this instance I think he should go and fail to see why he doesn't have the backbone and moral fibre to do so. How does he sleep at night?
Reg
I for one get a bit annoyed at people always calling for ministers' heads. The most notorious of these was of course Two Jags who did so after every rail crash and indeed after Lockerbie. However in this instance I think he should go and fail to see why he doesn't have the backbone and moral fibre to do so. How does he sleep at night?
Reg
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There are two issues here. Firstly, the supplying of essential (ie potentially life-saving) kit, such as body armour, for which there can be no excuse for a shortage of and, secondly, the incidentals we buy, because we prefer them to some of the (sometimes inadequate, sometimes unpleasing) stuff we are issued with.
Was Sgt Roberts failed by Geoff Hoon or by commanders in the field, or both? I'd like to see the final report before making any judgment. If things were rushed, to the extent the kit could not be brought forward in time, someone must be held accountable for that.
The forces should introduce a pre-deployment allowance. This would cover all the kit and caboodle we find it necessary to buy prior to being detached on OOA ops. I would suggest a figure of £500.
Samantha Roberts is a woman of great dignity and tenacity. One can only admire and salute her courage and resolve. I wish her all the very best.
Was Sgt Roberts failed by Geoff Hoon or by commanders in the field, or both? I'd like to see the final report before making any judgment. If things were rushed, to the extent the kit could not be brought forward in time, someone must be held accountable for that.
The forces should introduce a pre-deployment allowance. This would cover all the kit and caboodle we find it necessary to buy prior to being detached on OOA ops. I would suggest a figure of £500.
Samantha Roberts is a woman of great dignity and tenacity. One can only admire and salute her courage and resolve. I wish her all the very best.
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Of course his bl@@dy commanders let him down. They are, afterall political animals atempting to climb the greasy promotion pole on the way to the top. Hands up any of you in here who have recently heard a plethora of SENIOR officers ranting at and about HMG in any public forum...........not many hands on veiw
However we are without doubt our own worst enemies as we strive to make do with the appaling level of underfunding we all live with today. Bought about by some extremely clever bean counter who came up with the bright idea of divolving budgetry responsibility...........fuc@in strokers ......please excuse but it makes my blood boil. We now have, and have suffered for it over many years, the scenario where some promotion minded bloggs knows that by trimming some more off already far to lean annual budget he will be seen to be saving money. This sort of frugal awareness is loved by those above who also bask in this financial madness as they all strive to grasp the afore mentioned pole..............the saddest part of it is it will never ever stop......god help us and all the Sgt Robert's of this pis@ poor situation we find ourselves in.
However rest assured that all of this is just whinging, which apparantly our lords and masters think is all we are good at.
For Mrs Roberts I have a suggestion. She should write a personal letter to Tony Bliar and ask the patronising tw@t if he would have been happy or even willing to send Leo or any of his other jug eared kinder to war along side her husband with the same pi@@ poor level of equipment..............wonder if he would have the spine to answer that honestly
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
However we are without doubt our own worst enemies as we strive to make do with the appaling level of underfunding we all live with today. Bought about by some extremely clever bean counter who came up with the bright idea of divolving budgetry responsibility...........fuc@in strokers
......please excuse but it makes my blood boil. We now have, and have suffered for it over many years, the scenario where some promotion minded bloggs knows that by trimming some more off already far to lean annual budget he will be seen to be saving money. This sort of frugal awareness is loved by those above who also bask in this financial madness as they all strive to grasp the afore mentioned pole..............the saddest part of it is it will never ever stop......god help us and all the Sgt Robert's of this pis@ poor situation we find ourselves in. However rest assured that all of this is just whinging, which apparantly our lords and masters think is all we are good at.
For Mrs Roberts I have a suggestion. She should write a personal letter to Tony Bliar and ask the patronising tw@t if he would have been happy or even willing to send Leo or any of his other jug eared kinder to war along side her husband with the same pi@@ poor level of equipment..............wonder if he would have the spine to answer that honestly
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Only an outside observer but…
1. Didn’t the MoD/HMG decide not to procure lots of equipment lest it look like they were pre-empting the whole thing. So politicians are most to blame for whole sorry equipment mess. Even if it was ‘in theatre’ it wasn’t where it needed to be in time.
2. Didn’t the Management at the sharp end have to decide to take body armour from tank troops to give it to infantry because not enough useful kit was getting to the front line – it was striking watching the footage to note the numbers of black boots and green clothing worn by forward troops compared with the desert booted people in the rear.
1. Didn’t the MoD/HMG decide not to procure lots of equipment lest it look like they were pre-empting the whole thing. So politicians are most to blame for whole sorry equipment mess. Even if it was ‘in theatre’ it wasn’t where it needed to be in time.
2. Didn’t the Management at the sharp end have to decide to take body armour from tank troops to give it to infantry because not enough useful kit was getting to the front line – it was striking watching the footage to note the numbers of black boots and green clothing worn by forward troops compared with the desert booted people in the rear.
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Hoon as the man at the top will have to take responsibility. But for those who understand MOD and Whitehall the real blame lies firmly with the Civil Servants who 'advise' Ministers and really call the shots over where money is spent and what our 'policy' is. So if we're having a firing squad I'd like to line up a few 'officials' who are always quick to point out that Ministers make the decisions!
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I am with Mrs Roberts. I have always had to purchase kit to 'see me through' until the supply chain kicks in. The internal audit reported that there was no problem with the supply chain , thats news to me! I have experienced problems on every op' in the last 7 yrs ! keep fighting the labour Gov is full of false promises.
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Kiting for Boys
Of course, holding stocks of body armour that (it might be alleged) are sufficient for major ops would be considered unsporting.
Granted, mass purchasing activity in the defence procurement marketplace at such a time would have provided an unforgiveable intelligence opportunity to the enemy...
...but it doesn't explain why we didn't have enough kit for our boys and girls in the first place.
Gadget
Granted, mass purchasing activity in the defence procurement marketplace at such a time would have provided an unforgiveable intelligence opportunity to the enemy...
...but it doesn't explain why we didn't have enough kit for our boys and girls in the first place.
Gadget
Given the thought processes of most in the procurement system, an urgent order for 30 000 pairs of snow shoes would have been more indicative to Mr S Hussein that HM's finest were about to launch Operation Kick Ar$e 2 in the Great Sandtray.
Remember GW1. Arrived in September 90, started war 13 years ago this very night, finished in early March. Got desert DP to go with Muharraq souk-sourced Chinese desert wellies....2 days before flying home on 13 Mar 91. And only got those because a stores basher owed us a favour!
Still, BuffHoon has said sorry. So that's OK then.....
Remember GW1. Arrived in September 90, started war 13 years ago this very night, finished in early March. Got desert DP to go with Muharraq souk-sourced Chinese desert wellies....2 days before flying home on 13 Mar 91. And only got those because a stores basher owed us a favour!
Still, BuffHoon has said sorry. So that's OK then.....