Hoon is "sorry"
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I remember reading many years ago, well not that many actually, that the MOD Civil Servants had a couple of huge heated warehouses with appropriate staff stuffed to the rafters with saddles stirrups horse blankets panniers carts collars and other assorted horsey paraphanalia,that been in existance since 1900 or so, just in case the military decided to reform the Light Brigade one assumes.
Bit of a scandle about it at the time,pity they dont keep a similar one filled with body armour.
Bit of a scandle about it at the time,pity they dont keep a similar one filled with body armour.
Thread Starter
There may have been sufficient stocks of body armour just not given out in advance in case the boys kept them 
or a large shortage. Either way, this wasn't an unexpected attack on Britain by an enemy force. This was a pre-planned operation by a coalition we were a part of. If we weren't ready we should have waited 'til we were (desert temperatures included). To claim that to have done otherwise showed the deployment to be a success is spin at its most obscene.
Mrs Roberts has done all in the forces a massive service by having the courage to release the highly personal tapes her late husband recorded. It's a shame her strength of charachter isn't reflected in those far higher in the decision making process who have failed her husband.
or a large shortage. Either way, this wasn't an unexpected attack on Britain by an enemy force. This was a pre-planned operation by a coalition we were a part of. If we weren't ready we should have waited 'til we were (desert temperatures included). To claim that to have done otherwise showed the deployment to be a success is spin at its most obscene.Mrs Roberts has done all in the forces a massive service by having the courage to release the highly personal tapes her late husband recorded. It's a shame her strength of charachter isn't reflected in those far higher in the decision making process who have failed her husband.
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Yet again as an outsider I am horrified but feel involved because as a Channel Islander despite our small population a surprising number of people join the the UK forces and the UK is responsible for our defence. We contribute in various financial ways to defence as well as personnel, currently and in previous wars.
We don't vote for the UK government but I hate the way they leave you guys without adequate kit, I imagine all the civil servants in the UK get all the stationery & freebies they need but you guys at the sharp end lack equipment.
If a beancounter in UK doesn't get his freebies or a calculator he wont die, you will.
God bless you all.
Hoon & blair should quit.
I can't help but think Hoon is being saved to be used as a fall guy later to save Blair.
We don't vote for the UK government but I hate the way they leave you guys without adequate kit, I imagine all the civil servants in the UK get all the stationery & freebies they need but you guys at the sharp end lack equipment.
If a beancounter in UK doesn't get his freebies or a calculator he wont die, you will.
God bless you all.
Hoon & blair should quit.
I can't help but think Hoon is being saved to be used as a fall guy later to save Blair.
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the argument they are now putting forward is that there was sufficient kit in theatre and it was the army who didn't distribute it.
The fact that the build up was delayed by the decision to go being left far to late. Reason to keep splits in the labour party to a minimum. The audit office report states clearly and they make a bik issue of more personnel and equipment moved in less time well there is a peanlty for this and that is the logistic system can't cope with the volume of kit/pax arriving. Speaking to a loggie during the consolidation phase in Iraq he said on his staff course he was taught the thing that went wrong on GW1 and looking at GW2 we made exactly the same mistakes.
The fact that the build up was delayed by the decision to go being left far to late. Reason to keep splits in the labour party to a minimum. The audit office report states clearly and they make a bik issue of more personnel and equipment moved in less time well there is a peanlty for this and that is the logistic system can't cope with the volume of kit/pax arriving. Speaking to a loggie during the consolidation phase in Iraq he said on his staff course he was taught the thing that went wrong on GW1 and looking at GW2 we made exactly the same mistakes.
TAC Int Bloke
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Not that I like Buff, (wasn't he in CND round about the time I was keeping the pinkos out of camp?) or want to make excuses for logistical cock-ups, but Let's not pretend cr@p kitting and equipment is a new problem or an exclusively British phenomenon.
Back in the 80's the flack jackets we used to get issued with weren’t exactly much use at stopping anything more than a strong breeze, did you see Heseltine offering his resignation every time some poor sod got blown away? What was the answer to the requests for Kevlar? Costs too much......
Our forbears had to fly in obsolete aircraft, (look at the loss rates for Blemheims or the RFC for April 1917) were there calls for the War Minister's resignation?
Have a look at len Deighton's 'Declarations of War' there is an interesting tale about a soldier from antiquity complaining about his kit....
Historically the politicians of whatever shade haven't put us first, and never will. I don't approve, but it's a fact of life.
Regards
-nick
Back in the 80's the flack jackets we used to get issued with weren’t exactly much use at stopping anything more than a strong breeze, did you see Heseltine offering his resignation every time some poor sod got blown away? What was the answer to the requests for Kevlar? Costs too much......
Our forbears had to fly in obsolete aircraft, (look at the loss rates for Blemheims or the RFC for April 1917) were there calls for the War Minister's resignation?
Have a look at len Deighton's 'Declarations of War' there is an interesting tale about a soldier from antiquity complaining about his kit....
Historically the politicians of whatever shade haven't put us first, and never will. I don't approve, but it's a fact of life.
Regards
-nick
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Interestingly I had a chat with a US colleage the other day who when we discussed in depth what we thought of Mr Hoon told of the horrendous shortages suffered by Uncle Spams finest during the Gulf. He was there and had a lot of kit missing and didnt get the right number of flak jackets etc. It wasnt just us that had problems.
As for Hoon - has there ever been a SecDef more loathed by all three forces at the same time? I know the Navy doesnt exactly like John Nott, but Hoon seems to be the most unpopular one I can remember.
As for Hoon - has there ever been a SecDef more loathed by all three forces at the same time? I know the Navy doesnt exactly like John Nott, but Hoon seems to be the most unpopular one I can remember.
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As a 'youngster' enjoying my first frontline tour still keen and raring to go, I feel a sense of absolute dismay at the attitudes of our political lords and masters, not only those that sit in the House of Commons. I am proud that we have a 'can do' approach to what we are called upon to do, I think that is what stands us apart from other Armed forces in the World. But it seems clear to me that the reason the Government enjoys the prestige it gets from HM Forces is because of this attitude, not because of any political will to do what is right for us. I'm sure that Sgt Roberts' case is just the tip of the iceberg and if the truth be known, many more heads would be on the block.
I truely hope that in 10 years time I will still be as enthusiastic as I am now, although I am beginning to understand some of the 'old and bold' crewroom banter/despondancy.
All our thoughts and prayers with the families of those who have given their lives in this conflict.
I truely hope that in 10 years time I will still be as enthusiastic as I am now, although I am beginning to understand some of the 'old and bold' crewroom banter/despondancy.
All our thoughts and prayers with the families of those who have given their lives in this conflict.
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...and with near-Buffhoon style timing, we got told the other day by Joe SWO that the new "smooth finish" v-neck jumpers are now old and "ARE NOT" to be worn after Feb 1st, to be replaced by the new, ploughed-field pattern of round-neck jumper.
Thing is, when the smoothies came in, I remember actually saying "If I leave it long enough before changing my old jumper, the new ones'll be obsolete and I can just wear me old one again!"
And lo, less than ten years later, a budget already stretched as thin as Vanessa Feltz bikini bottoms has been wasted introducing ANOTHER BL@@DY JUMPER for the blunties.
Condolences and best wishes to Mrs Roberts.
Thing is, when the smoothies came in, I remember actually saying "If I leave it long enough before changing my old jumper, the new ones'll be obsolete and I can just wear me old one again!"
And lo, less than ten years later, a budget already stretched as thin as Vanessa Feltz bikini bottoms has been wasted introducing ANOTHER BL@@DY JUMPER for the blunties.
Condolences and best wishes to Mrs Roberts.
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Summit else he needs to be 'sorry' for;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3406445.stm
(Appologies if someone else got here first)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3406445.stm
(Appologies if someone else got here first)
Although his smug arrogance and insincere lack of remorse are utterly unforgiveable, I'm not sure that it's just BuffHoon who is to blame.
When their Airships were more concerned about what colour of cummerbund people were wearing at Dining In Nights than seemingly anything else, the pins started to come out of my personal handles....
When their Airships were more concerned about what colour of cummerbund people were wearing at Dining In Nights than seemingly anything else, the pins started to come out of my personal handles....
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Beagle - well put sir. It may be the politicians who decide on what the armed forces actually do but it is the commanders who put it all into practise and it is they who must bear the rsponsibility for lack of anything. Will the tank brigade go in without their tanks? Will the **sqn of harriers go without their aircraft? Of course not because the senior officers would be made a laughing stock. Now just because it is something less obvious (like body armour) they think it may not matter and in any case it is not for them to upset their politcal masters by being there for their men. It might just stop the next gong or peerage. Cynical - yes. True - you tell me.
Is it just me or did anybody else notice what I thought was a glaring discrepancy throughout the TV coverage of Gulf War 2? The senior British commanders in Quatar were always wearing complete sets of desert DPM although the only time they were ever near sand was when moving from their airconditioned HQ to their airconditioned accomodation. All of them!
Move to the camera shot of infantry troopies etc under fire in Iraq with a mish-mash of temperate DPM and self purchased kit. It made my blood boil every time I saw it.
I also recall a troopie on BFBS TV, instead of saying hello to his wife and kids like most were doing, angrily demanding that she send him some boots that didn't melt in the desert heat.
Adequate kit sent to the frontline? My @rse!
Move to the camera shot of infantry troopies etc under fire in Iraq with a mish-mash of temperate DPM and self purchased kit. It made my blood boil every time I saw it.
I also recall a troopie on BFBS TV, instead of saying hello to his wife and kids like most were doing, angrily demanding that she send him some boots that didn't melt in the desert heat.
Adequate kit sent to the frontline? My @rse!
Lets not forget that Hoon has not apologised for the death. He has said he was "sorry SSgt Roberts had died", he did not accept responsibility for the death - big difference. He used again on Radio 4 (friday am) the weasley lawyer skills that were in evidence the last time I had the misfortune to meet him whilst I was in the service.
The MoD has a lot to answer for in the logistics mistakes of TELIC. I deny anybody to say they went with all the correct kit. But right or wrong, that is all part of being in the military and always will be.
The big part is that as the man at the top, Hoon cannot accept ultimate responsibilty for gross mistakes. That is the way of the weasel. If he was 1% of the man that those who have served and died in the Gulf were, he would fall on his sword.
Enough said. i look forward to the day the weasel goes.
The MoD has a lot to answer for in the logistics mistakes of TELIC. I deny anybody to say they went with all the correct kit. But right or wrong, that is all part of being in the military and always will be.
The big part is that as the man at the top, Hoon cannot accept ultimate responsibilty for gross mistakes. That is the way of the weasel. If he was 1% of the man that those who have served and died in the Gulf were, he would fall on his sword.
Enough said. i look forward to the day the weasel goes.
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ok i'm going to light touch paper here
why should it be like that?
Why should the military with alarming regularity be deployed into harms way without the proper kit?
Just because its always been like that doesn't make it right.
I think that our seniors and elected representitives need to be made alot more accountable for their actions and ommissions. I am professionally accountable as a nurse so why shouldn't they be?
why should it be like that?
Why should the military with alarming regularity be deployed into harms way without the proper kit?
Just because its always been like that doesn't make it right.
I think that our seniors and elected representitives need to be made alot more accountable for their actions and ommissions. I am professionally accountable as a nurse so why shouldn't they be?
Nurse,
Couldn't agree more with you. Problem is it's not a perfect world. The rot begins at the top and is visible throughout the core of the services.
I hope the NAO reports do, for a change make a difference. I doubt it, but would love to be proven wrong. Governmental defence papers should make these basic omissions a greater priority than they are. But none of us foresaw the next conflict being fought in the desert did we?
Couldn't agree more with you. Problem is it's not a perfect world. The rot begins at the top and is visible throughout the core of the services.
I hope the NAO reports do, for a change make a difference. I doubt it, but would love to be proven wrong. Governmental defence papers should make these basic omissions a greater priority than they are. But none of us foresaw the next conflict being fought in the desert did we?
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Faulty Radios, Desert boots that melt in the desert, faulty guns, huge cost-cutting, a defence secretary who cares more about himself than his armed forces, not enough body armour?? What the hell is happening? Hoon has to go. Period.
Thread Starter
Another widow speaks out......
Obviously we can't expect to go to war zones in Military vehicles now they've all been scrapped in defence cuts to 'improve operational effectivness'
, although I seem to remember that wearing body armour was optional at the time of this incident for liason reasons and the temperature. Don't know enough about the incident to comment further except to pass condolences to all the grieving relatives.
Obviously we can't expect to go to war zones in Military vehicles now they've all been scrapped in defence cuts to 'improve operational effectivness'
, although I seem to remember that wearing body armour was optional at the time of this incident for liason reasons and the temperature. Don't know enough about the incident to comment further except to pass condolences to all the grieving relatives.
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Just a short one, in reference to an earlier post..
As you all know, we can sound off to our hearts content, but the voice of the troops on the ground will never be heard or adhered to by the promotion chasing f***wits further up the command and supply chain. The UK armed forces will always "Will-do, can-do, make-do" and HMG will always take the p***.
We also know that we can never really vote with our feet, or take any kind of action to make them sit up and take notice.
It may be a futile response, but in Samantha Roberts, I think we have a woman of remarkable dignity, strength and courage, may I suggest that rather than rant away annonymously to each other (We all know the score, and share the same view), why not get the voice of the unheard majority, and put it right alongside that of Samantha Roberts?? God knows she deserves all the support and backing she can get. At the end of the day SSGT Roberts was "One of us", he could be any one of you????
As for Buff... drop dead you spineless ar$ehole.
As you all know, we can sound off to our hearts content, but the voice of the troops on the ground will never be heard or adhered to by the promotion chasing f***wits further up the command and supply chain. The UK armed forces will always "Will-do, can-do, make-do" and HMG will always take the p***.
We also know that we can never really vote with our feet, or take any kind of action to make them sit up and take notice.
It may be a futile response, but in Samantha Roberts, I think we have a woman of remarkable dignity, strength and courage, may I suggest that rather than rant away annonymously to each other (We all know the score, and share the same view), why not get the voice of the unheard majority, and put it right alongside that of Samantha Roberts?? God knows she deserves all the support and backing she can get. At the end of the day SSGT Roberts was "One of us", he could be any one of you????
As for Buff... drop dead you spineless ar$ehole.