Question for "Ascot" crews
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Question for "Ascot" crews
There might be a obvious answer to this but:
Why is it 100% impossible to persuade a Ascot flight to make a visual approach, or for that matter a visual climb out from "my" humble snow-covered airfield? (Bardufoss, Norway)
Are RAF truckers so much more scared of high terrain then their NATO counterparts (not just the "locals" ) ?
Even civilan operators are able to negotiate a visual approach.
Btw: Nice to see the performance of an emty C-17 departing yesterday! Quite nice rate of climb!
M609
Why is it 100% impossible to persuade a Ascot flight to make a visual approach, or for that matter a visual climb out from "my" humble snow-covered airfield? (Bardufoss, Norway)
Are RAF truckers so much more scared of high terrain then their NATO counterparts (not just the "locals" ) ?
Even civilan operators are able to negotiate a visual approach.
Btw: Nice to see the performance of an emty C-17 departing yesterday! Quite nice rate of climb!
M609
The advice for most sensible people operating into/out of unfamiliar aerodromes (such as Bardufoss is to most Ascoteers nowadays) is to use IFR techiques and published procedures.
What is routine to you (extremely cold weather operations, etc) may be far less so to others. Hence the protection of using a published IFR approach (preferably a precision approach if one exists) - it makes life safer for all concerned!
But then again, why do such (not infrequent
) visitors to the sun-soaked Islas Malvinas as the 216 Timmy chaps always turn left towards the South Pole when departing on the Base Aerea Gringo's westerly runway for ASI even in gin-clear VMC?
Take care - and enjoy all the fish!
What is routine to you (extremely cold weather operations, etc) may be far less so to others. Hence the protection of using a published IFR approach (preferably a precision approach if one exists) - it makes life safer for all concerned!
But then again, why do such (not infrequent
) visitors to the sun-soaked Islas Malvinas as the 216 Timmy chaps always turn left towards the South Pole when departing on the Base Aerea Gringo's westerly runway for ASI even in gin-clear VMC?Take care - and enjoy all the fish!
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stick to what you know!
no need to call your airfield humble m609 for a start! we do love to make visual approaches and departures, however in different enviroments and mountainous areas is it not better safe than sorry?
its either that or us military pilots are not upto the job anymore! still i think i'd like to keep my little pink body in tact and play safe on my next time there!
and no need to get a dig in at air traffic, however on a recent excursion to basra, we were cleared to land only to find a heli under control of atc was on the reciprocal of the approach lane, and climbing(300 ft on tcas!)
its either that or us military pilots are not upto the job anymore! still i think i'd like to keep my little pink body in tact and play safe on my next time there!
and no need to get a dig in at air traffic, however on a recent excursion to basra, we were cleared to land only to find a heli under control of atc was on the reciprocal of the approach lane, and climbing(300 ft on tcas!)
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BEagle
Why are you always having a go at them 3* mates? Seems like you have some problem with the way they operate... Go on spill the beans.. What do you know that we don't?
As for vis/ifr alldepends on how little rest you got back at base or if you are on yet another max crew duty day..
Why are you always having a go at them 3* mates? Seems like you have some problem with the way they operate... Go on spill the beans.. What do you know that we don't?
As for vis/ifr alldepends on how little rest you got back at base or if you are on yet another max crew duty day..
fesc - are you paranoid or what?
I'm not 'having a go' at those poor unfortunate chaps who have to operate the god-forsaken schedule down to the sun-soaked Islas Malvinas and back, just genuinely curious as to why they always used to fly the SID even when no-one else within 1000 square miles was airborne. Maybe it was a performance thing? But even in a max wt VC10K2, if the range wasn't active (just ask ATC) we used to depart on RW hdg and then turn north when we could clear the terrain - and the Tri* had much better performance than our ancient old beasts!
Pax'ing back on a Timmy on one occasion and a bemused Army chap sitting next to me exclaimed as we turned south "Look, I might only be a Pongo - but even I know that Ascension is the other way!". Very amusing chap with lots of anecdotes - helped pass the time instead of watching 'Black Rain' and 'Chicken Run' yet again!
But back to the plot: unfamiliar aerodrome = don't try to be clever, just fly the published approach!
I'm not 'having a go' at those poor unfortunate chaps who have to operate the god-forsaken schedule down to the sun-soaked Islas Malvinas and back, just genuinely curious as to why they always used to fly the SID even when no-one else within 1000 square miles was airborne. Maybe it was a performance thing? But even in a max wt VC10K2, if the range wasn't active (just ask ATC) we used to depart on RW hdg and then turn north when we could clear the terrain - and the Tri* had much better performance than our ancient old beasts!
Pax'ing back on a Timmy on one occasion and a bemused Army chap sitting next to me exclaimed as we turned south "Look, I might only be a Pongo - but even I know that Ascension is the other way!". Very amusing chap with lots of anecdotes - helped pass the time instead of watching 'Black Rain' and 'Chicken Run' yet again!
But back to the plot: unfamiliar aerodrome = don't try to be clever, just fly the published approach!
Nah BEags - it's so the Disco-driving millionaires in Stanley know that their link with the motherland is once again northbound 
Wonder what bmi will do with their super-dooper high-performance 330
Wonder what bmi will do with their super-dooper high-performance 330
Ah-hah! That's probably indeed the reason, Wycombe! Which could be a bit dangerous as the not-Bennies will probably throw stale bread at it..." It do werrk for they seagulls..."
The super dooper A330 could make it direct from the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome with a useful load - and still have diversion fuel for civilisation! But a 767 couldn't!
The super dooper A330 could make it direct from the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome with a useful load - and still have diversion fuel for civilisation! But a 767 couldn't!
M609
B'foss is high on the list of 'folklore' airfields for us - and with good reason! Don't go there often, high terrain, TEC, contaminated runway, de-ice holdover times, climb gradient on departure assuming one engine out to conform with perf A (especially towards that bl@@dy hill) and that's before I start thinking about it!
It's also favourite run for our checkers to 'jump' a crew so most of us try and make it as easy as possible by flying an approach we can pre-plan.
(I'm also a big girls blouse when it comes to big hills and me.
)
B'foss is high on the list of 'folklore' airfields for us - and with good reason! Don't go there often, high terrain, TEC, contaminated runway, de-ice holdover times, climb gradient on departure assuming one engine out to conform with perf A (especially towards that bl@@dy hill) and that's before I start thinking about it!
It's also favourite run for our checkers to 'jump' a crew so most of us try and make it as easy as possible by flying an approach we can pre-plan.
(I'm also a big girls blouse when it comes to big hills and me.
)
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Was there yesterday. Not a regular stop for the Ascot crews, who are generally more used to heat, sand and flat terrain at the moment. You wouldn't persuade me to make a visual approach - I don't know the area, I am not familiar with the airfield and the runway is contaminated. I consider the safest procedure is the IFR approach. BTW the VC10 can't land on 10 with the ice on the runway, due to factoring of the LDR and can't land on 28 with a tailwind, so please keep the wind from the West.
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Thanx, quite as me and my colleauges suspected!
We sure will try D-IFF_ident! (Was it the noon or evening service you piloted?)
Luckily the winds are allmost allways from the SW-W-NW when it gets stronger then 3-4 kts.
We have gotten quite used to the performance limitations on RAF aircraft runway wise. Most large-ish multi enigne aircraft are not able to take off from 28 anyway.
(The hill at the end of 28 is quite famous it seems
)
A Jaguar doing TGL on 28 will never touch the rwy with the main gear for more then 1 second, the nose gear never touches.
But then they only climb by mother earth curving......
We sure will try D-IFF_ident!
(Was it the noon or evening service you piloted?)Luckily the winds are allmost allways from the SW-W-NW when it gets stronger then 3-4 kts.
We have gotten quite used to the performance limitations on RAF aircraft runway wise. Most large-ish multi enigne aircraft are not able to take off from 28 anyway.
(The hill at the end of 28 is quite famous it seems
)A Jaguar doing TGL on 28 will never touch the rwy with the main gear for more then 1 second, the nose gear never touches.
But then they only climb by mother earth curving......
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Another reason is every time you go to B'foss it's on a bl00dy "route Check"!!!!!!!!
Apparently it is a challenging route with lots of pitfalls so you can get E cat'ed!
... did I say E cat'ed?..... er I obviously mean NCR'd!
...ohh and did my sinical streak come out?.... er I meant pitfalls that you can identify and avoid.... and get a pat on the back and still get a CR maintain!!!!
T
nice view though!
Apparently it is a challenging route with lots of pitfalls so you can get E cat'ed!
... did I say E cat'ed?..... er I obviously mean NCR'd!
...ohh and did my sinical streak come out?.... er I meant pitfalls that you can identify and avoid.... and get a pat on the back and still get a CR maintain!!!!
T
nice view though!
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The GAF is allso a fan of Norway as check ride venue for the A310 and CL60s. The A310 allmost never land at ENDU though, down to minima only. The 10.000 feet runway at Oslo (and perhaps the nightlife 
) must be more allureing.
A GAF A310 that landed on 10 last winter nearly ran off the end.
I have never seen so much frantic use of thrust reverse, it d@mm near disapeared in its private self generated cloud of IMC.......
) must be more allureing. A GAF A310 that landed on 10 last winter nearly ran off the end.
I have never seen so much frantic use of thrust reverse, it d@mm near disapeared in its private self generated cloud of IMC.......
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Doing vizzies is all very good until one of the motors stops. Knowing precisely where you are at that point, and how you can join the engine failure pattern quickly, will free up an awful lot of capacity for the crew at a very inconvenient moment.
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Hi all!
Seems my question about Ascot crews has not been taken lightly! I appalogize if me asking was offendig/insulting in any way!
I would, however appriciate if any future concerns regarding by pprune posts are directed to me via PM or on [email protected], and not in a in complaint to ATC Bardufoss.
Thanx!
Goodbye MILITARY forum!
M609
Seems my question about Ascot crews has not been taken lightly! I appalogize if me asking was offendig/insulting in any way!
I would, however appriciate if any future concerns regarding by pprune posts are directed to me via PM or on [email protected], and not in a in complaint to ATC Bardufoss.
Thanx!
Goodbye MILITARY forum!
M609
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M609
Seems to me you asked a relevant question and got a lot of informed relevant answers.
Which is one of the good things about PPRuNe since pilots and ATC CAN ask each other things and increase their knowledge in a constructive way (with a bit of banter thrown in of course).
I find it sad that one anally retentive individual needs to run and tell tales to your ATC facility since the debate has been good natured and informative to both sides and I can see no reason for any complaint. But every organisation has 0.1% of their employees in that category.
Just think if ATC world wide became the same and reported every little wrong doing or incorrect bit of phraseology by Ascoteers to the UK MoD. We would have to breed a whole new generation of 'Blunties' to service the rain forest of paperwork Of course maybe that's what your 'reporter' is hoping for ... he has a secret desire to become one
(And I accept that returning the favour in regards of ATC 'indiscretions' would create the same thing on our side of the house but like Mil pilots, 99.9% of us are good guys and gals ..... honest 
)
Here's to lots of direct routeings, great levels, and no delays for our Ascoteer friends for 2004. For the one who complained, you can
off direct to some remote NDB and take up the hold, delay not determined
PS If you want to complain to my ATC facility, drop a line to the SATCO, Danny Fyne, at PPRuNe Tower
Seems to me you asked a relevant question and got a lot of informed relevant answers.
Which is one of the good things about PPRuNe since pilots and ATC CAN ask each other things and increase their knowledge in a constructive way (with a bit of banter thrown in of course).
I find it sad that one anally retentive individual needs to run and tell tales to your ATC facility since the debate has been good natured and informative to both sides and I can see no reason for any complaint. But every organisation has 0.1% of their employees in that category.
Just think if ATC world wide became the same and reported every little wrong doing or incorrect bit of phraseology by Ascoteers to the UK MoD. We would have to breed a whole new generation of 'Blunties' to service the rain forest of paperwork
Of course maybe that's what your 'reporter' is hoping for ... he has a secret desire to become one (And I accept that returning the favour in regards of ATC 'indiscretions' would create the same thing on our side of the house
but like Mil pilots, 99.9% of us are good guys and gals ..... honest )Here's to lots of direct routeings, great levels, and no delays for our Ascoteer friends for 2004. For the one who complained, you can
off direct to some remote NDB and take up the hold, delay not determined PS If you want to complain to my ATC facility, drop a line to the SATCO, Danny Fyne, at PPRuNe Tower
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PPrune Radar, 'hear hear'. M609 - we'll have to apologise for the complaint in whetever form it arrived. 99.9% of us would much rather discuss operating procedures openly than 'go through the chain of command'. Didn't somebody say there's no such thing as a stupid question in aviation? If we all got together more often and discussed what and how we operate I'm sure we'd all be far more effective. As opposed to those who 'tell teacher' and atempt to further their career through brownie point scoring.
As an 'ascoteer' please keep asking those kinds of questions - it makes flying far more enjoyable when we all manage to operate together smoothly without a bitchfest.
Now, if you could find your way to providing some cute blonde chicks next time we visit, that would of course help our operating even more (all within the bounds of political corectness, equality and diversity and GASOs of course)
As an 'ascoteer' please keep asking those kinds of questions - it makes flying far more enjoyable when we all manage to operate together smoothly without a bitchfest.
Now, if you could find your way to providing some cute blonde chicks next time we visit, that would of course help our operating even more (all within the bounds of political corectness, equality and diversity and GASOs of course)
People getting flak about things they've posted on PPRuNe - surely not! That would never happen would it.....ooh no, deary me no!
I thought the question was posed in a light-hearted manner and received informed comments. That some misery should take you to task is totally unreasonable.
But a bevy of blonde lovelies to look after my erstwhile Ascoteering chums the next time they're over in B'foss will no doubt be very welcome. Of course to keep the political correctos happy, as Lionel Lin says, there would have to be an equal number of large hairy Vikings as there would leggy nordic ladies
One thing though - just don't sing
. "Norway, null point"
I thought the question was posed in a light-hearted manner and received informed comments. That some misery should take you to task is totally unreasonable.
But a bevy of blonde lovelies to look after my erstwhile Ascoteering chums the next time they're over in B'foss will no doubt be very welcome. Of course to keep the political correctos happy, as Lionel Lin says, there would have to be an equal number of large hairy Vikings as there would leggy nordic ladies
One thing though - just don't sing
. "Norway, null point"
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Thanx all!
However:
Have exchanged emails with the Ascoteer in question, and it's seems to be a case of language barrier versus dry Brit humor leading to the ATC staff in question taking some banter dead serious.
(leading to before mentioned parpermill! )
Looks like things will work out, hope so anyway.
See you all next time you are snow bound!
However:
Have exchanged emails with the Ascoteer in question, and it's seems to be a case of language barrier versus dry Brit humor leading to the ATC staff in question taking some banter dead serious.
(leading to before mentioned parpermill!
)Looks like things will work out, hope so anyway.
See you all next time you are snow bound!
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M609's attitude over the outrageous break of anonymous confidentiality expected on this forum confirms everything I have always thought of our Northern friends. Their attitude and professionalism are examples to us all.
M609 you're a good egg.
M609 you're a good egg.