Future of the Air Engineer
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bleek Future ? not at all !.
Lets face it the future of the Flight Engineer is limited but that is not a reason to take the skills that are part of the F E,s trade and build on them.
The fact that all F E,s have a great deal of experience in system management , practical navigation , CRM and the like ( i could go on ! ) is not lost on the civil flying world , however the one thing that you cant do is fly the aircraft and this is something that you can address !.
The RAF has a number of flying clubs that all train pilots to way above the standard of the "average" PPL and at a fraction of the normal cost , aircraft hire is also very cheap when it comes to building hours that are needed to start the ATPL course.
Yours is a unque oportunity to get into the front seat of a jet airliner at a fraction of the cost to those in the civil world , Yes it is hard work to do all the exams but the flying is fun and the long term rewards are far greater than anything that the airforce will offer in terms of re trainning.
www.rafbfc.co.uk
I know of a number of F E,s who have taken this route and not one of them regrets it.
The fact that all F E,s have a great deal of experience in system management , practical navigation , CRM and the like ( i could go on ! ) is not lost on the civil flying world , however the one thing that you cant do is fly the aircraft and this is something that you can address !.
The RAF has a number of flying clubs that all train pilots to way above the standard of the "average" PPL and at a fraction of the normal cost , aircraft hire is also very cheap when it comes to building hours that are needed to start the ATPL course.
Yours is a unque oportunity to get into the front seat of a jet airliner at a fraction of the cost to those in the civil world , Yes it is hard work to do all the exams but the flying is fun and the long term rewards are far greater than anything that the airforce will offer in terms of re trainning.
www.rafbfc.co.uk
I know of a number of F E,s who have taken this route and not one of them regrets it.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to direct attention to www.raffca.org.uk rather than to a specific club's website in order to avoid allegations of 'free' PPRuNe advertising, mate?
I agree that many, many FEs have learned to fly in this way; all the ones I know are currently flying for the airlines. But there was also a VC10 ALM who held a CPL/IR who was an intructor and examiner on both single and multi-engined piston aeroplanes!
I agree that many, many FEs have learned to fly in this way; all the ones I know are currently flying for the airlines. But there was also a VC10 ALM who held a CPL/IR who was an intructor and examiner on both single and multi-engined piston aeroplanes!
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Oxfordshire UK
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Off topic again but just visited the RAF careers web site (well there's not much on telly post the football).
According to the information available, a WSOp (Air Loadmaster) earns the same as a WSOp (Elecrtronic Warfare), top rate £44,409. WSOp (Air Eng) not mentioned of course. Does this mean FS/Master loadies can expect a pay rise soon?
Like to echo A and C and Beagles previous thoughts, any young Air Eng should be activley working towards a different career. The oppertunities for training as a pilot are there and should be taken advantage of. If your not prepared to do so take the money while it's available and dont winge.
Wern't many contract extensions at Virgin when they grounded the classics.
According to the information available, a WSOp (Air Loadmaster) earns the same as a WSOp (Elecrtronic Warfare), top rate £44,409. WSOp (Air Eng) not mentioned of course. Does this mean FS/Master loadies can expect a pay rise soon?
Like to echo A and C and Beagles previous thoughts, any young Air Eng should be activley working towards a different career. The oppertunities for training as a pilot are there and should be taken advantage of. If your not prepared to do so take the money while it's available and dont winge.
Wern't many contract extensions at Virgin when they grounded the classics.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: lincoln
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Extract from Air secs bull June 2003.
Both PMA33a (FJ and RW) and myself appreciate fully the change of emphasis that the AASS has provided. We have both been in close contact with Gp Capt ***** *******and his team over the last few months and are acutely aware of the concerns within the commissioned rearcrew cadre. Every effort will be made to ensure that no GD(Eng) or GD(ALM) is disadvantaged by the outcome of the Study; indeed in some areas it will ensure personnel are able to pursue other career paths and opportunities. Without doubt there is a definite mindset change required as to how we, the Service, employ the present commissioned rearcrew cadre. The size of the cadre will not increase and, as highlighted above, will reduce with time. However, with the removal of stovepipes across the JO desks the opportunities to progress and develop in the round are increasing by the day. It is now time for individuals within the rearcrew cadre to seize the opportunity and work with the PMA to exploit the benefits of the changes implemented over the last few months. This will ensure that all individuals within the commissioned rearcrew cadre continue to enjoy a full and rewarding Service career. It cannot be stressed too strongly that the projected end state has been both supported and endorsed by the AFBSC. It is now time to ensure that the progression towards both empowerment and down ranking is achieved in as positive a manner as possible.
There may be a few jobs for the NCA FE's left, if the Air farce actually follows the AFBSC descision above. Lets see some positive action to get the O's out of NCA posts. One possible solution may be to remove the retention element of their pay, as they no longer need to be retained as rearcrew officers. Sorry I'm applying logic again, we all know that will never happen!
C*cks a kipper, fish for tea!!
Both PMA33a (FJ and RW) and myself appreciate fully the change of emphasis that the AASS has provided. We have both been in close contact with Gp Capt ***** *******and his team over the last few months and are acutely aware of the concerns within the commissioned rearcrew cadre. Every effort will be made to ensure that no GD(Eng) or GD(ALM) is disadvantaged by the outcome of the Study; indeed in some areas it will ensure personnel are able to pursue other career paths and opportunities. Without doubt there is a definite mindset change required as to how we, the Service, employ the present commissioned rearcrew cadre. The size of the cadre will not increase and, as highlighted above, will reduce with time. However, with the removal of stovepipes across the JO desks the opportunities to progress and develop in the round are increasing by the day. It is now time for individuals within the rearcrew cadre to seize the opportunity and work with the PMA to exploit the benefits of the changes implemented over the last few months. This will ensure that all individuals within the commissioned rearcrew cadre continue to enjoy a full and rewarding Service career. It cannot be stressed too strongly that the projected end state has been both supported and endorsed by the AFBSC. It is now time to ensure that the progression towards both empowerment and down ranking is achieved in as positive a manner as possible.
There may be a few jobs for the NCA FE's left, if the Air farce actually follows the AFBSC descision above. Lets see some positive action to get the O's out of NCA posts. One possible solution may be to remove the retention element of their pay, as they no longer need to be retained as rearcrew officers. Sorry I'm applying logic again, we all know that will never happen!
C*cks a kipper, fish for tea!!
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QE4 Ahh if only!!
I have been told by 2 separate PMA desk officers (off record of course) that the stated aim is to ensure that the last remaining FE's are all commissioned. This will be achieved by ensuring that any future exit tranches are populated in the main by Baldricks.
The O's will do what the O's do best!!
I will sit out here and watch it happen!
I have been told by 2 separate PMA desk officers (off record of course) that the stated aim is to ensure that the last remaining FE's are all commissioned. This will be achieved by ensuring that any future exit tranches are populated in the main by Baldricks.
The O's will do what the O's do best!!
I will sit out here and watch it happen!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could all happen a bit quicker than some think if the latest rumours about lack of funds for the all singing and dancing "Klassic" upgrade is to be believed
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: A 1/2 World away from Ice Statio Kilo
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know a place where we carry 2 engineers per aircraft if we can. Just means twice as many mars bars go missing. Oh it is sunny the wine is cheap and they sort of speak english.
Gorilla seems you are still on the wacky bananas mate, I thought you old retirees should take it easy. I am sure they will find an ideal spot for you in the union extra chips included.
Jim please tell me Maritime is not losing you, what will the fat chix in clubs do now
.
Charlie sends
Gorilla seems you are still on the wacky bananas mate, I thought you old retirees should take it easy. I am sure they will find an ideal spot for you in the union extra chips included.
Jim please tell me Maritime is not losing you, what will the fat chix in clubs do now
. Charlie sends
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: GEILENKIRCHEN
Age: 62
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIR ENG TRAINING
218 AIR ENG COURSE HAS STARTED, THE LAST EVER! THEY ARE DUE TO FINISH AND GRADUATE APR 05. A BRANCH BASH IS BEING DISCUSSED AND IDEAS AND HELP WILL BE REQUIRED SHORTLY.
THE FIRST OF THE LAST INSTRUCTORS LEAVES POST IN APR 04. ALL WILL BE GONE BY MAR 05.
THE FIRST OF THE LAST INSTRUCTORS LEAVES POST IN APR 04. ALL WILL BE GONE BY MAR 05.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To ALL flight Eng's
I for one am particularly sorry to see the demise of you chaps.
Both myself and several other Nimrod crews that I know of, are alive and kicking today, thanks to the swift and professional actions of the good old 'eng.
There is no question that you have been severely shafted by the Airships, and I can only suggest that you start looking after No' 1, and cast aside any loyalty you might still have.
The RAF have had no qualms about leaving you out in the cold, and their actions have been, and are deplorable.
I very much hope you can all get jobs with cathay or the rest, where you will be far better paid, with better conditions and find the type of respect you guys richly deserve.
'twill be a sad day when you are gone.
My thanks once again
Yours
The Swinging Monkey
I for one am particularly sorry to see the demise of you chaps.
Both myself and several other Nimrod crews that I know of, are alive and kicking today, thanks to the swift and professional actions of the good old 'eng.
There is no question that you have been severely shafted by the Airships, and I can only suggest that you start looking after No' 1, and cast aside any loyalty you might still have.
The RAF have had no qualms about leaving you out in the cold, and their actions have been, and are deplorable.
I very much hope you can all get jobs with cathay or the rest, where you will be far better paid, with better conditions and find the type of respect you guys richly deserve.
'twill be a sad day when you are gone.
My thanks once again
Yours
The Swinging Monkey
least of your worries eng future
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many clues do the suits at binnsworth need?
BWoS financial ineptitude SO, bin the new rod and keep the mk 2 with the new mk 4 rear kit, keep the Ks and forget fsta.
FSTA, we can't afford another "smart/financial brainwave" so buy the L1011s that are sunbathing in the west coast desert and we will have a cheaper and very effective strategic tanker and transport ac until we can afford to buy new.
There is no point closing the eng school when FSTA is still a pipedream and an expensive one at that, even if you put the smart or PFI cloak over its term! There's no point closing the school when the rod mk4 is unlikely ever to enter full productive service. No point when the A400M is still a scribble on the drawing board. And the J well er, I rest my case your honour.
So, binnsworth want to end ginger beer trg? How can they be so dull as to announce the closure of trg when we will only have x ginge's left. They have based there great ideas on the introduction of the types stated above and on their predicted ISDs.
If those types or dates change or don't materialise as IS happening by the week!!, who will fly the current types? There are Ginger Beer mates already changing branch, getting commissioned and leaving the service, all because these great decisions are the writing on the wall and who in their right mind wants to wait for the push when the service no longer needs us?
The alternatives to the current training system for FEs (2x OCU's, or ask c130 or rods to do an abo package prior to 2xOCUs) are only going to produce a far weaker product for the front line, a quarter or third of the flight deck capability drastically reduced. I have said it a thousand times, airlines who only fly at high level and in benign situations probably can do without an FE, they have 20 mins or so to sort out the preverbial and before they hit the ground. HOWEVER, the air farce flies low level in close prox to the ground/sea, at high level in close prox to other ac, we fly into very dangerous places and flaunt ourselves at enemy and ask to be shot at, WE NEED MORE people on the flight deck not less. Let's keep the nav too, ever heard of synergy??
Stop making decisions until the facts are clear and firmly in place. If we lose one ac and crew the suits will soon realise that we are a cheap and effective solution to several problems.
Ginger Beer rests, m'lud.
Ginger Beer, only Bermudan and in a Dark-n-Stormy.
BWoS financial ineptitude SO, bin the new rod and keep the mk 2 with the new mk 4 rear kit, keep the Ks and forget fsta.
FSTA, we can't afford another "smart/financial brainwave" so buy the L1011s that are sunbathing in the west coast desert and we will have a cheaper and very effective strategic tanker and transport ac until we can afford to buy new.
There is no point closing the eng school when FSTA is still a pipedream and an expensive one at that, even if you put the smart or PFI cloak over its term! There's no point closing the school when the rod mk4 is unlikely ever to enter full productive service. No point when the A400M is still a scribble on the drawing board. And the J well er, I rest my case your honour.
So, binnsworth want to end ginger beer trg? How can they be so dull as to announce the closure of trg when we will only have x ginge's left. They have based there great ideas on the introduction of the types stated above and on their predicted ISDs.
If those types or dates change or don't materialise as IS happening by the week!!, who will fly the current types? There are Ginger Beer mates already changing branch, getting commissioned and leaving the service, all because these great decisions are the writing on the wall and who in their right mind wants to wait for the push when the service no longer needs us?
The alternatives to the current training system for FEs (2x OCU's, or ask c130 or rods to do an abo package prior to 2xOCUs) are only going to produce a far weaker product for the front line, a quarter or third of the flight deck capability drastically reduced. I have said it a thousand times, airlines who only fly at high level and in benign situations probably can do without an FE, they have 20 mins or so to sort out the preverbial and before they hit the ground. HOWEVER, the air farce flies low level in close prox to the ground/sea, at high level in close prox to other ac, we fly into very dangerous places and flaunt ourselves at enemy and ask to be shot at, WE NEED MORE people on the flight deck not less. Let's keep the nav too, ever heard of synergy??
Stop making decisions until the facts are clear and firmly in place. If we lose one ac and crew the suits will soon realise that we are a cheap and effective solution to several problems.
Ginger Beer rests, m'lud.
Ginger Beer, only Bermudan and in a Dark-n-Stormy.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GB,
Your diatribe is nothing short of incredulous
Let me see if I have fully understood post....You want her her majesties finest to scrap any ideas of modernisation, keep the ancient sack's of pooh we currently own
, buy some more ancient sack's of pooh currently rusting away in the desert cos no one else wants them..........just to keep you in a job
........get real fella
"WE NEED MORE people on the flight deck not less. Let's keep the nav too, ever heard of synergy??".....b@@locks old fella
Whilst I see you take another dinosaur swipe at the J, and can't help myself so have to respond, we are proving daily that you are WRONG
The moves afoot to bring us into the new century are commendable, and whilst as usual not that financialy astute they should however be welcomed. The simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella. Either look at re-training within the service, you never know you MAY have what it takes to be an ALM, but it sounds like "OP Support" would suit you better
, or as plenty of very wise posters in here have advised train for a future outside.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Your diatribe is nothing short of incredulous
Let me see if I have fully understood post....You want her her majesties finest to scrap any ideas of modernisation, keep the ancient sack's of pooh we currently own
, buy some more ancient sack's of pooh currently rusting away in the desert cos no one else wants them..........just to keep you in a job ........get real fella "WE NEED MORE people on the flight deck not less. Let's keep the nav too, ever heard of synergy??".....b@@locks old fella
Whilst I see you take another dinosaur swipe at the J, and can't help myself so have to respond, we are proving daily that you are WRONG
The moves afoot to bring us into the new century are commendable, and whilst as usual not that financialy astute they should however be welcomed. The simple fact of life is the modern flightdeck only needs two people so start to face the facts fella. Either look at re-training within the service, you never know you MAY
have what it takes to be an ALM, but it sounds like "OP Support" would suit you better , or as plenty of very wise posters in here have advised train for a future outside.all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ESSEX
Age: 66
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FUTURE OF ENGINEERS
Well anyone who thinks they have a future as an engineer is pretty optimistic! When you get out in civvy street you will find you are a disposable asset. Once you get used to the idea that if you don't like it you can F!!! off all will be well. I have actually had this said to me on more than one occasion. Welcome to the real world.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My advice to all my fellow Air Eng's from an a recent ex Air Eng is:
GET OUT NOW AND BE AHEAD OF THE EXODUS!!
The qualities we possess (thanks Betty) are well in demand and respected in Civilian Street. We certainly rise above the rest!!
Any NCA Air Eng who thinks his bit of paper to 55 etc is worth anything is deluded. And for those who know me this is not bitterness or cynicism talking. The reality of the current situation is that the nutters running the madhouse at Innsworth have treated the NCA part of the Air Eng branch disgracefully over the last 8 years or so.
All of you, hands on your hearts, you know that you have no future as Flight Engineers, either in the Air Farce or in Civvie Street. I strongly urge you to start retraining courses and begin looking after number 1!
Sure, the decision to stop Air Eng training will lead to a shortage of Eng's in the medium to long term, but in the short term as the instructors and CFS posts move on there will be a temporary surplus which Innsworth will use to its advantage, not yours
If it really is true that 218 course is the last then this marks the beginning of the nailing down of the coffin lid. And last but not least let us not forget Hoons/MOD current thinking on shortages. If you don't have enough manpower, get rid of the equipment!! Al La problem solved!!
Any one from 146/147 Air Eng out there?
GET OUT NOW AND BE AHEAD OF THE EXODUS!!
The qualities we possess (thanks Betty) are well in demand and respected in Civilian Street. We certainly rise above the rest!!
Any NCA Air Eng who thinks his bit of paper to 55 etc is worth anything is deluded. And for those who know me this is not bitterness or cynicism talking. The reality of the current situation is that the nutters running the madhouse at Innsworth have treated the NCA part of the Air Eng branch disgracefully over the last 8 years or so.
All of you, hands on your hearts, you know that you have no future as Flight Engineers, either in the Air Farce or in Civvie Street. I strongly urge you to start retraining courses and begin looking after number 1!
Sure, the decision to stop Air Eng training will lead to a shortage of Eng's in the medium to long term, but in the short term as the instructors and CFS posts move on there will be a temporary surplus which Innsworth will use to its advantage, not yours
If it really is true that 218 course is the last then this marks the beginning of the nailing down of the coffin lid. And last but not least let us not forget Hoons/MOD current thinking on shortages. If you don't have enough manpower, get rid of the equipment!! Al La problem solved!!
Any one from 146/147 Air Eng out there?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always Broken,
I think you've missed the point of the diatribe.
The point was that a two crew cockpit is all very well at fl360 with no-one shooting at you, no-one trying to refuel from you and not a lot of chance of CFIT etc etc.
I have to agree that the military world should think twice before getting rid of of a flight deck aircrew category. Of course modernisation is here to stay, but lets remember that the first rule is fly safe and in a low level turnin' and burnin', tactical flying, multi engined, muliple threat environment may not be the best way forward and perhaps someone to look after the systems would be welcome while the bi-winged ones look out of the windows.
That takes care of FEs. Navigators perhaps more difficult to defend. However, I would offer that when perhaps battle damaged with all the whizzy glass stuff showing a black screen the folks in the pointy end with the good view will have more than enough to do keeping the thing from becoming a smoking crater than to try and work out from first principles "wherethehellarewe?" and how do we get back home?
I think you've missed the point of the diatribe.
The point was that a two crew cockpit is all very well at fl360 with no-one shooting at you, no-one trying to refuel from you and not a lot of chance of CFIT etc etc.
I have to agree that the military world should think twice before getting rid of of a flight deck aircrew category. Of course modernisation is here to stay, but lets remember that the first rule is fly safe and in a low level turnin' and burnin', tactical flying, multi engined, muliple threat environment may not be the best way forward and perhaps someone to look after the systems would be welcome while the bi-winged ones look out of the windows.
That takes care of FEs. Navigators perhaps more difficult to defend. However, I would offer that when perhaps battle damaged with all the whizzy glass stuff showing a black screen the folks in the pointy end with the good view will have more than enough to do keeping the thing from becoming a smoking crater than to try and work out from first principles "wherethehellarewe?" and how do we get back home?
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the last course has started, so the Engineer has no future in the Air Force. IF you want to fly there are jobs around, I was pushed I didnt jump I had to go to make the numbers fit, and allow the Air Force to keep some aussies they had overpaid and underused. The jobs you will find are few and far between and you probably won't be getting lots of aunty betties nice dollars to spend on you're latest states trip BUT there are jobs available if you want them. Look after yourself, fly safetly, and enjoy the sandbox or the Hilton wherever you are.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CS,
I think it's you who have missed the point old chap
"I have to agree that the military world should think twice before getting rid of of a flight deck aircrew category. Of course modernisation is here to stay, but lets remember that the first rule is fly safe and in a low level turnin' and burnin', tactical flying, multi engined, muliple threat environment may not be the best way forward and perhaps someone to look after the systems would be welcome while the bi-winged ones look out of the windows"
No worries we call them MC1 and MC2 and they look after our sytems fine so as you quite aptly put it.....
"That takes care of FEs."
...........and don't get started on the Nav issue as it WAS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I think it's you who have missed the point old chap
"I have to agree that the military world should think twice before getting rid of of a flight deck aircrew category. Of course modernisation is here to stay, but lets remember that the first rule is fly safe and in a low level turnin' and burnin', tactical flying, multi engined, muliple threat environment may not be the best way forward and perhaps someone to look after the systems would be welcome while the bi-winged ones look out of the windows"
No worries we call them MC1 and MC2
and they look after our sytems fine so as you quite aptly put it....."That takes care of FEs."
...........and don't get started on the Nav issue as it WAS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks CS,
ABIW, once again you surpass yourself and go off half cocked and spouting off about your own perceived importance. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing young man.
When you bother to really read what I said, you will realise that I was suggesting that the decisions being made now are being made with criteria which is changing by the hour. It would be more sensible to wait for the dust to settle over Hoons' future and the firm decisions on future platforms before stopping training of FEs. A fair comment? as we just might need'em.
Furthermore, if we can't afford the ac at the moment, you will see that my post suggested an alternative and obviously an interim measure, until the coffers are bouyant once more.
As an FE, I am going to be pro FE.
ABIW, you seem like a well balanced person as I notice a chip on both shoulders
Just to clear up any queries you may have, either way none of this mallarcky affects me and any career that I might have.
Now then, any intelligent comments?
GB
ABIW, once again you surpass yourself and go off half cocked and spouting off about your own perceived importance. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing young man.
When you bother to really read what I said, you will realise that I was suggesting that the decisions being made now are being made with criteria which is changing by the hour. It would be more sensible to wait for the dust to settle over Hoons' future and the firm decisions on future platforms before stopping training of FEs. A fair comment? as we just might need'em.
Furthermore, if we can't afford the ac at the moment, you will see that my post suggested an alternative and obviously an interim measure, until the coffers are bouyant once more.
As an FE, I am going to be pro FE.
ABIW, you seem like a well balanced person as I notice a chip on both shoulders
Just to clear up any queries you may have, either way none of this mallarcky affects me and any career that I might have.
Now then, any intelligent comments?
GB