Did you fly the Hunter or F86?
Thread Starter
Did you fly the Hunter or F86?
I didn't but I'd like to hear the stories of those who did. My interest in the F86 angle was that they were the stop-gap used before the full Hunter work up. Back in the late 80's I worked for Gunz'r'us for a couple of months and we were offered and started looking at a package of F86's which were 'available' from Pedro's ACME War Booty and Surplus Supply Co. 
Among those were some of the original Canadair sabres which had had an interesting life, including RAF, Luftwaffe and Yugoslavian service. There was allegedly a full package available including engines, which we saw some documentation of. Unfortunately despite getting some genuine interest from at least one potential uk operator, pedro appeared to be a little erm....'fly by night, you know, 'hey meester you wanna meet my seesta' and we soon realised that his conections were not as they were originally advertised! We also had the opportunity of getting hold of the Eritrean Fireflys that were being touted at that time, again that came to nowt! but that and Gunz'r'us are other stories not for this thread!.
Among those were some of the original Canadair sabres which had had an interesting life, including RAF, Luftwaffe and Yugoslavian service. There was allegedly a full package available including engines, which we saw some documentation of. Unfortunately despite getting some genuine interest from at least one potential uk operator, pedro appeared to be a little erm....'fly by night, you know, 'hey meester you wanna meet my seesta' and we soon realised that his conections were not as they were originally advertised! We also had the opportunity of getting hold of the Eritrean Fireflys that were being touted at that time, again that came to nowt! but that and Gunz'r'us are other stories not for this thread!.
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Surprised at the lack of ex-Hunter replies so far. Although I have some Hunter time it was non-operational; however, I met Robin Olds (the USAF's Vietnam hero) in the States many years ago and he told me that he learned all he knew about flying fighters from his time flying on No 1 Sqn RAF. Maybe that was in F-86s because I believe 1 Sqn had them before Hunters.
I think that I can claim to be the last pilot ever posted to a Hunter sqn! 4 of us were posted from Valley to Wittering, 2 were chopped at Brawdy (in those days you were posted from 4 FTS before starting TWU) and 1 was re-posted to Jags. So I arrived at 58 Sqn as the last of the 4. Unfortunately the day after I arrived the Boss was told that the sqn (and 45) were being disbanded, so I only got to fly the immaculate 45/58 sqn jets when I was sent back to Brawdy for a few months....
As for the Sabre, I remember Westlands doing some Sabre work at RAF Merryfield in the early '50s when I was a youngster - but I think that they were all USAF ones.
As for the Sabre, I remember Westlands doing some Sabre work at RAF Merryfield in the early '50s when I was a youngster - but I think that they were all USAF ones.
Thread Starter
No1 squadron
Cyrus, I can't find any reference to RAF No1 squadron having sabres, however No1 Wing RCAF at North Luffenham had them, Linton-on-Ouse rings a bell for the RAF and other 'Northern' airfields too!.
Also at the same time as the sabre project, we also had a request for a Hunter (non flying), for a high profile 'celeb' who in his early years had nailed them together for Armstrong Whitworth at Coventry, we got involved in looking at the ex Brawdy Hunters which were sold at Cosford around that time, looking for an AW machine to no avail, perhaps one of Beag's ex mounts was in that lot!
Also at the same time as the sabre project, we also had a request for a Hunter (non flying), for a high profile 'celeb' who in his early years had nailed them together for Armstrong Whitworth at Coventry, we got involved in looking at the ex Brawdy Hunters which were sold at Cosford around that time, looking for an AW machine to no avail, perhaps one of Beag's ex mounts was in that lot!
From various sources:
During the early 'fifties, RAF Fighter Command had evinced anxiety over its lack of swept-wing transonic fighters and, early in 1953 it had been decided to acquire Canadair Sabres, MDAP funds assisting in providing the RAF with 430 aircraft. The first of these were Mk 2s which began to reach the UK in October 1952, but the bulk of the Sabres delivered to the RAF were Mk 4s which re-equipped No.s 3, 4, 20, 26, 67, 71, 93, 112, 130 and 234 Squadrons with 2 ATAF in Germany and No.s 66 and 92 Sqns with Fighter Command.
The Canadair Sabre was finally withdrawn from RAF service by June 1956...in 1957, 180 ex-RAF Sabre Mk 4s were delivered to the Italian Air Force; ....a further 121 ex-RAF Sabre Mk 4s were eventually delivered to the Yugoslav Air Force (and were still in service in 1964).
The Sabres were all flown across the Atlantic by pilots of No 1 Long Range Ferry Unit, Transport Command (which later became No 147 Sqn) in Operation Bechers Brook which lasted from 8 Dec 1952 until 19 Dec 1953. The first batch was handed over to the RAF in a ceremony at Abingdon in January 1953; the first Sabre-equipped squadrons were 3, 67 and 71 who formed the Wildenrath wing. The first Fighter Command squadron to receive the Sabre was No 66 Sqn at Linton-on-Ouse in Dec 1953 followed by 92 Sqn also at Linton. The Fighter Command Sabres were later replaced by Hunters in 1956; 66 Sqn moved to Acklington in February 1957 and 92 moved to Middleton-St-George in March. The last RAF Sabre to leave RAFG service was XB 670 of 3 Sqn in June 1956.
During the Sabre era, by Whitehall edict, all non-commissioned RAF pilots were removed from Sabre squadrons...
Regarding the Canadian Sabres, 1 Air Division was formed as Canada's air contribution to NATO. It was to consist of four wings of day fighters. These wings were to be located on the continent and because of the damage to the established airfields, new airfields were to be constructed. Canada would deploy two wings to France (Marville and Grostenquin) and two wings to Germany (Zweibrucken and Furstenfeldbruck). RCAF personnel began the entire operation with the establishment of a headquarters in Paris France, which was subsequently relocated to Metz in April 1953. Because the airfield at Marville would not be available for some time, it was decided to locate 1 Wing at North Luffenham in England. The first squadron for 1 Wing (410 Squadron) crossed the Atlantic onboard the HMCS Magnificent (an RCN aircraft carrier) in November 1951. The aircraft for 441 Squadron were also on the HMCS Magnificent. Aircrew and groundcrew personnel for 441 Squadron crossed the Atlantic on the "Empress of France" in February 1952. Upon their arrival in England they deployed to RAF North Luffenham, where they stayed until Marville was ready for occupation in March 1955. 439 Squadron departed Uplands on May 30th, 1952, and flew across the Atlantic in operation Leapfrog I, flying to Labrador, Greenland, Iceland, Scotland and onwards to North Luffenham. The arrival of 410 Squadron in England with their Sabre 2s was big news as it marked the first time in history that a Commonwealth squadron had more modern equipment than the Royal Air Force. With the USAF having already deployed the F-86A in Europe, the RAF was feeling decidedly behind the power curve. They badly wanted into the Sabre program - when North American Aircraft could not oblige the Air Ministry's request, they turned to Canadair who came to the rescue.
Meanwhile, 410 Sqn pilots were merrily adapting to their new environment in North Luffenham - engaging in air-to-air GCI exercises and air-to-ground gunnery practice on a routine basis. For the locals, it was impossible to miss the clean lines of the Sabre or the beautiful contrails the Canadian gaggles were weaving over the Engligh countryside whenever the weather permitted. Being keen aviation enthusiasts, it was only natural that British citizens wanted to get a closer look at the new aircraft. One of their first opportunities to do so was at the National Air Races held at Newcastle on July 12th, 1952. Led by their new OC, S/L Duke Warren (an ex-Spitfire pilot), the Cougars were happy to oblige a request to put on a display for the air race fans, doing so with five Sabres. Warren's wingmen were F/O's Garth Cinnamon, Bob Gibson, Len Bentham and Francis Syllvester. The RCAF Sabres began to leave North Luffenham in 1954; 410 moved to Baden-Soellingen in Nov 54, 441 to Zweibruecken in Dec 54 and finally 439 moved to Marville in Mar 55.
During the early 'fifties, RAF Fighter Command had evinced anxiety over its lack of swept-wing transonic fighters and, early in 1953 it had been decided to acquire Canadair Sabres, MDAP funds assisting in providing the RAF with 430 aircraft. The first of these were Mk 2s which began to reach the UK in October 1952, but the bulk of the Sabres delivered to the RAF were Mk 4s which re-equipped No.s 3, 4, 20, 26, 67, 71, 93, 112, 130 and 234 Squadrons with 2 ATAF in Germany and No.s 66 and 92 Sqns with Fighter Command.
The Canadair Sabre was finally withdrawn from RAF service by June 1956...in 1957, 180 ex-RAF Sabre Mk 4s were delivered to the Italian Air Force; ....a further 121 ex-RAF Sabre Mk 4s were eventually delivered to the Yugoslav Air Force (and were still in service in 1964).
The Sabres were all flown across the Atlantic by pilots of No 1 Long Range Ferry Unit, Transport Command (which later became No 147 Sqn) in Operation Bechers Brook which lasted from 8 Dec 1952 until 19 Dec 1953. The first batch was handed over to the RAF in a ceremony at Abingdon in January 1953; the first Sabre-equipped squadrons were 3, 67 and 71 who formed the Wildenrath wing. The first Fighter Command squadron to receive the Sabre was No 66 Sqn at Linton-on-Ouse in Dec 1953 followed by 92 Sqn also at Linton. The Fighter Command Sabres were later replaced by Hunters in 1956; 66 Sqn moved to Acklington in February 1957 and 92 moved to Middleton-St-George in March. The last RAF Sabre to leave RAFG service was XB 670 of 3 Sqn in June 1956.
During the Sabre era, by Whitehall edict, all non-commissioned RAF pilots were removed from Sabre squadrons...
Regarding the Canadian Sabres, 1 Air Division was formed as Canada's air contribution to NATO. It was to consist of four wings of day fighters. These wings were to be located on the continent and because of the damage to the established airfields, new airfields were to be constructed. Canada would deploy two wings to France (Marville and Grostenquin) and two wings to Germany (Zweibrucken and Furstenfeldbruck). RCAF personnel began the entire operation with the establishment of a headquarters in Paris France, which was subsequently relocated to Metz in April 1953. Because the airfield at Marville would not be available for some time, it was decided to locate 1 Wing at North Luffenham in England. The first squadron for 1 Wing (410 Squadron) crossed the Atlantic onboard the HMCS Magnificent (an RCN aircraft carrier) in November 1951. The aircraft for 441 Squadron were also on the HMCS Magnificent. Aircrew and groundcrew personnel for 441 Squadron crossed the Atlantic on the "Empress of France" in February 1952. Upon their arrival in England they deployed to RAF North Luffenham, where they stayed until Marville was ready for occupation in March 1955. 439 Squadron departed Uplands on May 30th, 1952, and flew across the Atlantic in operation Leapfrog I, flying to Labrador, Greenland, Iceland, Scotland and onwards to North Luffenham. The arrival of 410 Squadron in England with their Sabre 2s was big news as it marked the first time in history that a Commonwealth squadron had more modern equipment than the Royal Air Force. With the USAF having already deployed the F-86A in Europe, the RAF was feeling decidedly behind the power curve. They badly wanted into the Sabre program - when North American Aircraft could not oblige the Air Ministry's request, they turned to Canadair who came to the rescue.
Meanwhile, 410 Sqn pilots were merrily adapting to their new environment in North Luffenham - engaging in air-to-air GCI exercises and air-to-ground gunnery practice on a routine basis. For the locals, it was impossible to miss the clean lines of the Sabre or the beautiful contrails the Canadian gaggles were weaving over the Engligh countryside whenever the weather permitted. Being keen aviation enthusiasts, it was only natural that British citizens wanted to get a closer look at the new aircraft. One of their first opportunities to do so was at the National Air Races held at Newcastle on July 12th, 1952. Led by their new OC, S/L Duke Warren (an ex-Spitfire pilot), the Cougars were happy to oblige a request to put on a display for the air race fans, doing so with five Sabres. Warren's wingmen were F/O's Garth Cinnamon, Bob Gibson, Len Bentham and Francis Syllvester. The RCAF Sabres began to leave North Luffenham in 1954; 410 moved to Baden-Soellingen in Nov 54, 441 to Zweibruecken in Dec 54 and finally 439 moved to Marville in Mar 55.
Last edited by BEagle; 4th Jan 2004 at 19:28.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Sabre Pilots Association
Robin Olds returned to the UK in October 1948 under the USAF - RAF Exchange Program and became the first American to lead an RAF squadron. He was OC 1 Squadron at RAF Tangmere - flying the Meteor F4.
Robin Olds returned to the UK in October 1948 under the USAF - RAF Exchange Program and became the first American to lead an RAF squadron. He was OC 1 Squadron at RAF Tangmere - flying the Meteor F4.
Last edited by ORAC; 4th Jan 2004 at 19:34.
Thread Starter
Merryfield
As far as I can find out the Westlands work at MerryField was during the return of the Sabres for refurbishment and onward disposal, so they could well have worn the stars and bars, can the short trousered BEagle recall the colour scheme? re the Canucks (Vulcan thread) my brother is a bit of an anorak on them (or should be be a parker?), so I'll see if he has any data on the Merryfield CF100's
Well, I do remember one of the Sabres doing an aileron roll overhead when we were out for a walk - and seeing 'USAF' on the wing!
Wastelands used to run the engines quite early in the morning. When they did this on summer weekends, my father got somewhat annoyed (we only lived about half a mile from their hangar) - and found the phone number for the Westlands MD. The next time they started doing it, he rang him up "Did I wake you up? Good - because you've just woken me!". Then they did it again the next day....."Hello, it's me again!". They didn't do it again!
This must have been around the same time that the vectored thrust Meteor trials were carried out there with RA 490; the test pits (2 parallel tunnels) survived for many years afterwards....but the Meteor ended its days in 1957 after being used for firefighting practice. Without a rocket seat, an engine failure during a jet-assisted approach would have been pretty terminal for the test pilot - the ac could be flown at speeds of only 70 kt!
Wastelands used to run the engines quite early in the morning. When they did this on summer weekends, my father got somewhat annoyed (we only lived about half a mile from their hangar) - and found the phone number for the Westlands MD. The next time they started doing it, he rang him up "Did I wake you up? Good - because you've just woken me!". Then they did it again the next day....."Hello, it's me again!". They didn't do it again!
This must have been around the same time that the vectored thrust Meteor trials were carried out there with RA 490; the test pits (2 parallel tunnels) survived for many years afterwards....but the Meteor ended its days in 1957 after being used for firefighting practice. Without a rocket seat, an engine failure during a jet-assisted approach would have been pretty terminal for the test pilot - the ac could be flown at speeds of only 70 kt!
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Hunter chap
Jumpseater
My cousin flew hunters out of Aden (and other middle east bases) during the demise of the British Empire. He went
on to fly Harriers, Hawks then Canberras'.
He has a multitude of fascinating stories to tell, particularly during his early years in the RAF, so much so I have persuaded him to write a book about his life in the RAF. (He always was good at telling 'stories'!!)
He has finished it but is trying to find a ghost writer/publisher to get the book on the shop shelves.
I will point him to this thread and hopefully he can give you some info.
Cheers
M7
My cousin flew hunters out of Aden (and other middle east bases) during the demise of the British Empire. He went
on to fly Harriers, Hawks then Canberras'.
He has a multitude of fascinating stories to tell, particularly during his early years in the RAF, so much so I have persuaded him to write a book about his life in the RAF. (He always was good at telling 'stories'!!)
He has finished it but is trying to find a ghost writer/publisher to get the book on the shop shelves.
I will point him to this thread and hopefully he can give you some info.
Cheers
M7
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Thats interesting Mr Beagle, I remember as a young Tad watching a air race at Tynemouth, nobody else in the family remembers this,and I am accused of having a creative imagination, I remember it particularly because it featured Jet Aircraft, still a rare sight up here in those days, wonder if it was the Newcastle Air Race you speak of.
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I remember a very good article on a exercise over India I think it was, re Hunters verses Migs and Sabres, featured someone not a million miles from pprune.
Had it on me hard disk, but alas its been formated since then.
Had it on me hard disk, but alas its been formated since then.
Old Eagle-eyes BEagle is correct as those Sabres sent to the AMI( Italian Air Force) were overpainted on the fuselage at least with "US Air Force" and serial no. for ferry purposes( pic. does not show wing markings due to angle of photo).
The last Sabre was XB982 which was modified by Westlands to fit the BS/R-R Orpheus of variou Marks. Must have been a splendid performer, as the last variant of the Orpheus produced 6800 lbs thrust for a weight of 1100 lbs, against the Orenda`S 5200 lbs thrust for a weight of 2600 lbs.
The a/c was finally withdrawn at Filton in 1962 and then SCRAPPED!.
Give an arm/leg for a trip in a Sabre 6 ( after the flight , though !)..
The last Sabre was XB982 which was modified by Westlands to fit the BS/R-R Orpheus of variou Marks. Must have been a splendid performer, as the last variant of the Orpheus produced 6800 lbs thrust for a weight of 1100 lbs, against the Orenda`S 5200 lbs thrust for a weight of 2600 lbs.
The a/c was finally withdrawn at Filton in 1962 and then SCRAPPED!.
Give an arm/leg for a trip in a Sabre 6 ( after the flight , though !)..
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I remember F86's equipping no's 2, 3 and 234 Sqns at RAF Geilenkirchen in the mid-50's. Hunters eventually took over the role. My father was SEngO for 234.
Years later I flew Hunters in the Middle East and subsequently the F4. Whilst on 6 Sqn, one of the young Sabre pilots from Geilers became my CO. (His previous Squadrons had been 1,2,3 and 4.)
Now I am fully air-conditioned with bunks provided for the longer flights.
I will now drift into a reflective mood of reverie...
Years later I flew Hunters in the Middle East and subsequently the F4. Whilst on 6 Sqn, one of the young Sabre pilots from Geilers became my CO. (His previous Squadrons had been 1,2,3 and 4.)
Now I am fully air-conditioned with bunks provided for the longer flights.
I will now drift into a reflective mood of reverie...
