NCA PAS
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I think the party line is that it starts 1 Apr 04, you join the PAS when you reach your 22 year point, and you must remain on the PAS for a minimum of 5 years.
It should be open to all FS and MACR, and initial offers are made at around 18/19 year point.
The rates are the same as Officer PAS, but the max levels you can reach are rank dependant.
It should be open to all FS and MACR, and initial offers are made at around 18/19 year point.
The rates are the same as Officer PAS, but the max levels you can reach are rank dependant.
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Given that there is a strong likelyhood that the existing kipper fleet will be cut, and that the MRA4 will be cancelled in the forthcoming white paper, I strongly suggest that it is about to become an employers market.
Personally, I really cannot see the NCA PAS seeing the light of day.
Regards,
M2
Personally, I really cannot see the NCA PAS seeing the light of day.
Regards,
M2
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By the time of your post MM I expect that you had a little too much pre Christmas cheer. But thanks for your input. The 'we can do everything' E3 spin is always good for a giggle
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Circle Kay,
Exactly where in my post have I suggested that the E-3D can 'do everything'?!!!
Information regarding the MRA4 is widely held throughout the Service, including people involved in the project. Certainly, I can see absolutely no justification for more than 6 ac. Likewise, a cut in the existing kipper fleet has long been mooted and would, at a stroke, solve the AEOp manning problems.
Based on this info, PMA themselves do not believe that NCA PAS will happen. I hope that they're wrong.
Regards,
M2
Exactly where in my post have I suggested that the E-3D can 'do everything'?!!!
Information regarding the MRA4 is widely held throughout the Service, including people involved in the project. Certainly, I can see absolutely no justification for more than 6 ac. Likewise, a cut in the existing kipper fleet has long been mooted and would, at a stroke, solve the AEOp manning problems.
Based on this info, PMA themselves do not believe that NCA PAS will happen. I hope that they're wrong.
Regards,
M2
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From the recent Air Eng Exec mtg;
The NCA PAS will be set up in Jan 04, for implementation in Apr 04, similiar to the O's this year. Those who are within 3-4 yrs of IPP or past IPP, will automatically be offered PAS if they are FS or MACR and havent PVR'd or been med downgraded etc.
Those who are not yet at 3-4 yrs to IPP will be boarded in the future for suitability for PAS, as per the O's.
The latest word is that the spine will be a different one than the O's.
Unlike the O's, who can forgo military greatness and senior ranks by joining the PAS and getting loadsadosh, the erks will not be forgoing rank or greatness for loadsadosh!
In fact even if the extra dosh would take a MACR from his current max of 45k to the 52k of NCO Pilot on the other spine, 7k gross, minus 40% is not a lot to write home about really?
However, let's not look free money in the mouth. It will mean more dosh and with the proposed new pension deal, it is better however, are we gauranteed to get PAS? What will the spine look like? I bet it won't be like the O's and if O rearcrew (not Nav)are topping out at 53k'ish, do you think we'll get any where near them, don't think so.
I believe that it is a passifying ploy with some merit which will not supply us with a great deal in real terms, watch for the catch of changing your terms of service when you accept PAS!!!!!
Ginger Beer, only Bermudan and in a Dark-n-Stormy.
The NCA PAS will be set up in Jan 04, for implementation in Apr 04, similiar to the O's this year. Those who are within 3-4 yrs of IPP or past IPP, will automatically be offered PAS if they are FS or MACR and havent PVR'd or been med downgraded etc.
Those who are not yet at 3-4 yrs to IPP will be boarded in the future for suitability for PAS, as per the O's.
The latest word is that the spine will be a different one than the O's.
Unlike the O's, who can forgo military greatness and senior ranks by joining the PAS and getting loadsadosh, the erks will not be forgoing rank or greatness for loadsadosh!
In fact even if the extra dosh would take a MACR from his current max of 45k to the 52k of NCO Pilot on the other spine, 7k gross, minus 40% is not a lot to write home about really?
However, let's not look free money in the mouth. It will mean more dosh and with the proposed new pension deal, it is better however, are we gauranteed to get PAS? What will the spine look like? I bet it won't be like the O's and if O rearcrew (not Nav)are topping out at 53k'ish, do you think we'll get any where near them, don't think so.
I believe that it is a passifying ploy with some merit which will not supply us with a great deal in real terms, watch for the catch of changing your terms of service when you accept PAS!!!!!
Ginger Beer, only Bermudan and in a Dark-n-Stormy.
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MM
You are somewhat wide of the mark - you maybe see justification for only 6 ac, but those who actually make decisions have a different view (albeit, for the moment) I suggest you recheck with your sources - the only gauge of what will or will not happen is in MOD.
Seasons Greetings
BATS
You are somewhat wide of the mark - you maybe see justification for only 6 ac, but those who actually make decisions have a different view (albeit, for the moment) I suggest you recheck with your sources - the only gauge of what will or will not happen is in MOD.
Seasons Greetings
BATS
MM
Interesting comment on MRA4/MR2. One of my best mates is in the kipper fleet. They have been spending 3-4 months a year out of the country for the past 3-4 years flying on a variety of operations, details of some of which seem to be trickling out (if only to let the rest of the RAF know what they do!!). They routinely have 6 a/c out of the country at a time.
It seems to me from your comments that either what they are doing is pointless (in which case I am sure they would all like to come home!) or it won't be possible to replace them with 6 MRA4s as you suggest.
Still, I am sure the E-3D fleet will be able to pick up any of the commitments the Nimrod fleet can no longer cover under your cunning plan.
P.S Anyone who has read any of your comments over several months knows you are a strong advocate of the 'E-3D can do everything' approach.
MRA4? The worse thing they did was keep the name Nimrod. What was it supposed to do? I don't know half of it, but if we had some senior officers with imagination almost anything! ASW to destruction (nobody else does), ASuw to destruction, SAR, anti imigration (read your RAF news) land attack (fly 4,000 nms+ without support and put more weapons on target than a 4 ship of Tornados), reconn, etc, etc. A more verstile platform it would be hard to find! If BAe could actually get it to work that is!!
Interesting comment on MRA4/MR2. One of my best mates is in the kipper fleet. They have been spending 3-4 months a year out of the country for the past 3-4 years flying on a variety of operations, details of some of which seem to be trickling out (if only to let the rest of the RAF know what they do!!). They routinely have 6 a/c out of the country at a time.
It seems to me from your comments that either what they are doing is pointless (in which case I am sure they would all like to come home!) or it won't be possible to replace them with 6 MRA4s as you suggest.
Still, I am sure the E-3D fleet will be able to pick up any of the commitments the Nimrod fleet can no longer cover under your cunning plan.
P.S Anyone who has read any of your comments over several months knows you are a strong advocate of the 'E-3D can do everything' approach.
MRA4? The worse thing they did was keep the name Nimrod. What was it supposed to do? I don't know half of it, but if we had some senior officers with imagination almost anything! ASW to destruction (nobody else does), ASuw to destruction, SAR, anti imigration (read your RAF news) land attack (fly 4,000 nms+ without support and put more weapons on target than a 4 ship of Tornados), reconn, etc, etc. A more verstile platform it would be hard to find! If BAe could actually get it to work that is!!
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I will not sign up to PAS in any circumstance, because I am not prepared to be leg-ironed for another 5 years. It is a cheap way of trying to stabilise the exodus that NCA now have. Statistics can of course tell you want somebody wants you to hear; it is the hidden stats: People approaching terminal engagement that would previously have signed on are now looking forward to new careers. Those stats apparently do not represent any retention problem, and the recent Review farce has achieved little other then to outrage LM who are still underpaid when compared to their Eng/AEOp bretheren.
If any NCA think this is wrong, then look at how much "Acting rank" the SH force need to maintain the "pyramid". Every single sqn except 28. Yet the short sighted fools still only promote a few per year when there are so many suitable. At least one SH sqn has restructered its NCA in admission that vacancies (PICs) simply cannot be filled. This then exagerates the route problem as there are less FS & MACR required.
Or how many front line crews have more than a 1000 hrs total!
It makes me sick....and it is all down to mismanagement by PMA, and above the posters pay scale at that.
To half the AEOp requirement at the stroke of a pen is a typical solution in the 21st century RAF, especially if some of them take up training in the other NCA trades.
I`ll get my coat, and a P45
If any NCA think this is wrong, then look at how much "Acting rank" the SH force need to maintain the "pyramid". Every single sqn except 28. Yet the short sighted fools still only promote a few per year when there are so many suitable. At least one SH sqn has restructered its NCA in admission that vacancies (PICs) simply cannot be filled. This then exagerates the route problem as there are less FS & MACR required.
Or how many front line crews have more than a 1000 hrs total!
It makes me sick....and it is all down to mismanagement by PMA, and above the posters pay scale at that.
To half the AEOp requirement at the stroke of a pen is a typical solution in the 21st century RAF, especially if some of them take up training in the other NCA trades.
I`ll get my coat, and a P45
Training Risky
Thankyou for your comment above. Now that there are a few more posts here I see what is going on. And, yes, I do go behind enemy lines sometimes. Its just that I'm not very good with abbreviations and acronyms - please forgive me ( ... he says as he backs through the door bowing elaborately).
Thankyou for your comment above. Now that there are a few more posts here I see what is going on. And, yes, I do go behind enemy lines sometimes. Its just that I'm not very good with abbreviations and acronyms - please forgive me ( ... he says as he backs through the door bowing elaborately).
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Biggus,
Firstly, yes I am a big proponent of the E-3D. The scope of our operations is huge compared to only 10 years ago, and continues to grow apace. However, I have never claimed that we can 'do everything'!!!! Have I ever suggested that an E-3D can do ASW? No. Have I ever claimed that an E-3D can do ASuW? No. Have I ever claimed that an E-3D can deliver stand off weaponry? No. If you wish to challenge anything that I have written about AWACS (or indeed ISTAR generally) over recent months, please feel free to PM me.
I'm well aware of what ops the Kipper fleet have been on (and continue to do) in recent years, and indeed operated alongside them during both the Afghan ops and TELIC.
Although I felt that their utility during TELIC in the overland role was questionable, they were and remain a valuable commodity in a wide variety of other ops all around the world. I certainly don't think that their role is 'pointless'. Equally however, I know several people on the MR2 fleet who question the value of elements of current MR2 tasking.
As you correctly say, the MRA4 could be an extremely valuable and versatile ac, particularly in the land attack role. God knows I've seen how useful a P-3C with Maverick and SLAM is on many occasions. The key issue however, is whether the whole package can be made to work by BAe (something that I would suggest that they need to do quickly). The project is already high profile for all the wrong reasons. Therefore, when the budget people look at it, it is no good saying 'it can put more weapons on target than 4 x GR4s', for the simple reason that they will say 'well why not use 4 x GR4s then?' Yes it has much potential, but when it is compared with other projects as the axe is sharpened in the coming months, I severely doubt if we will get anything like the 18(?) currently on order.
As BATS says, the only gauge of what the future for the Kipper fleet (both MR2 and MRA4) holds is what the MoD decides over the coming months. I hope that I am wrong, however I cannot see the either fleets surviving in their current or projected guises.
Spot 4 says, it would be a typical fudge to the AEOp manning problems if these shortages were solved by an MR2 fleet reduction. However, it's been done before on other fleets and regrettably I suspect that we're about to see it happen again.
My original posts on this thread were to highlight the potential impact upon the NCA PAS of any white paper cuts. Again, I sincerely hope that you guys get the scheme as I have always felt it very wrong that you guys get a lower fg pay rate than officers. Only time will tell.
Regards,
M2
Firstly, yes I am a big proponent of the E-3D. The scope of our operations is huge compared to only 10 years ago, and continues to grow apace. However, I have never claimed that we can 'do everything'!!!! Have I ever suggested that an E-3D can do ASW? No. Have I ever claimed that an E-3D can do ASuW? No. Have I ever claimed that an E-3D can deliver stand off weaponry? No. If you wish to challenge anything that I have written about AWACS (or indeed ISTAR generally) over recent months, please feel free to PM me.
I'm well aware of what ops the Kipper fleet have been on (and continue to do) in recent years, and indeed operated alongside them during both the Afghan ops and TELIC.
Although I felt that their utility during TELIC in the overland role was questionable, they were and remain a valuable commodity in a wide variety of other ops all around the world. I certainly don't think that their role is 'pointless'. Equally however, I know several people on the MR2 fleet who question the value of elements of current MR2 tasking.
As you correctly say, the MRA4 could be an extremely valuable and versatile ac, particularly in the land attack role. God knows I've seen how useful a P-3C with Maverick and SLAM is on many occasions. The key issue however, is whether the whole package can be made to work by BAe (something that I would suggest that they need to do quickly). The project is already high profile for all the wrong reasons. Therefore, when the budget people look at it, it is no good saying 'it can put more weapons on target than 4 x GR4s', for the simple reason that they will say 'well why not use 4 x GR4s then?' Yes it has much potential, but when it is compared with other projects as the axe is sharpened in the coming months, I severely doubt if we will get anything like the 18(?) currently on order.
As BATS says, the only gauge of what the future for the Kipper fleet (both MR2 and MRA4) holds is what the MoD decides over the coming months. I hope that I am wrong, however I cannot see the either fleets surviving in their current or projected guises.
Spot 4 says, it would be a typical fudge to the AEOp manning problems if these shortages were solved by an MR2 fleet reduction. However, it's been done before on other fleets and regrettably I suspect that we're about to see it happen again.
My original posts on this thread were to highlight the potential impact upon the NCA PAS of any white paper cuts. Again, I sincerely hope that you guys get the scheme as I have always felt it very wrong that you guys get a lower fg pay rate than officers. Only time will tell.
Regards,
M2
MM
Why use an MRA4 rather than a 4 ship of GR4s (+tanker support). Because if you have MRA4s then their attack capability will have been used as an excuse to make reductions to the GR4 fleet. You yourself say you have seen P3s armed with SLAM + Maverick used to good effect. You might as well ask why wasn't the USN using F-18s instead? Why do the USAF use B-52s and B-1s rather than F-15Es?
Will withdraw now to leave this thread to NCA!!!
Why use an MRA4 rather than a 4 ship of GR4s (+tanker support). Because if you have MRA4s then their attack capability will have been used as an excuse to make reductions to the GR4 fleet. You yourself say you have seen P3s armed with SLAM + Maverick used to good effect. You might as well ask why wasn't the USN using F-18s instead? Why do the USAF use B-52s and B-1s rather than F-15Es?
Will withdraw now to leave this thread to NCA!!!
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Biggus,
Before I too retire to hopefully let this thread return to its original subject, once again let me stress I am not doubting the utility of the MRA4 if it works!!!! However, I assume that you are not equating the capability of the MRA4 with the B-52 and B-1!!!!
Both of these platforms have considerably more payload than the MRA4 will have, and have the advantage of better altitude options (B-52) or dash speed (B-1) than will be available to the MRA4. Even with the MRA4s gucci DASS, it will not be able to be employed 'over the wire' as freely as the B-52 or B-1 fleets.
Regards,
M2
Before I too retire to hopefully let this thread return to its original subject, once again let me stress I am not doubting the utility of the MRA4 if it works!!!! However, I assume that you are not equating the capability of the MRA4 with the B-52 and B-1!!!!
Both of these platforms have considerably more payload than the MRA4 will have, and have the advantage of better altitude options (B-52) or dash speed (B-1) than will be available to the MRA4. Even with the MRA4s gucci DASS, it will not be able to be employed 'over the wire' as freely as the B-52 or B-1 fleets.
Regards,
M2
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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OK, has any one actually SEEN anything in writing to say that from 01 Apr 04 invited NCA will go onto PAS? Recently that is.
I know that briefings etc are still saying it's going ahead, but then they would wouldn't they? I can remember road shows briefing about the Bett report assuring us that it wouldn't be cherry picked and we all know what happened to that!!
Bottom line, PAS is being introduced because NCA are in short supply and retention is punk. But what if future plans being worked on right now mean that come May 04, NCA are no longer manpower critical?
Do you really believe that the men of honour
will fulfill their promises?
Enlighten me someone!!
And yes I am a cynic ok!!
I know that briefings etc are still saying it's going ahead, but then they would wouldn't they? I can remember road shows briefing about the Bett report assuring us that it wouldn't be cherry picked and we all know what happened to that!!
Bottom line, PAS is being introduced because NCA are in short supply and retention is punk. But what if future plans being worked on right now mean that come May 04, NCA are no longer manpower critical?
Do you really believe that the men of honour
will fulfill their promises?Enlighten me someone!!
And yes I am a cynic ok!!
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Colleague of mine (and yours Gorrilla), received an letter a few days ago from Binnsworth, stating that he is going to be boarded for the new NCA PAS.
Mate in question is within 3 yrs of IPP.
Mate in question is within 3 yrs of IPP.
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NCA PAS
First, as I understand it so far, the rumors are that only FS and Master aircrew are to be allowed on to the PA spine, what happens to the Sgt at his 22yr point that for whatever reason hasn't been promoted, is he just to be abandoned by the airforce, at the same time though the army allow Sgts on to the PA spine.
Second, I have heard that there are to be rank bars to which a FS cannot pass without being promoted to Master In this case why is this only going to apply to NCA and to no other group or trade. WSO have a trade bar not a rank bar, as does every other trade, the whole point of the PA spine is to de-couple rank from pay, except it seems where our NCO's are concerned.
third, what happens to a FS on reserved rights to Master, since his pay band will be above the max level for a FS on the PA spine.?
Is it any wonder there is such a shortage of NCA when they get treated in such a manner. If the PA spine is good enough for the rest of us, then why not for the NCA (without rank bars and with Sgt's included
Second, I have heard that there are to be rank bars to which a FS cannot pass without being promoted to Master In this case why is this only going to apply to NCA and to no other group or trade. WSO have a trade bar not a rank bar, as does every other trade, the whole point of the PA spine is to de-couple rank from pay, except it seems where our NCO's are concerned.
third, what happens to a FS on reserved rights to Master, since his pay band will be above the max level for a FS on the PA spine.?
Is it any wonder there is such a shortage of NCA when they get treated in such a manner. If the PA spine is good enough for the rest of us, then why not for the NCA (without rank bars and with Sgt's included
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BB
The idea of the PAS was not to award an enhanced pension to some idle ex bluntie who hasnt put in the work to get promoted
.
It was conceived to keep good dudes in the trades after their 22, when the pull of all that cash and pension often caused them to leave. The candidates are boarded so that those who put the work in get rewarded, not just I've done me time so give me the money, gladly we got rid of time promotion.
As for how it is actually done by our lords and masters will beggar belief as usual, not forgetting the interference from the scribbly world, who believe it is not fair that Aircrew get more money than clerks .
donning kevlar and stepping back from that baby
Charlie sends
The idea of the PAS was not to award an enhanced pension to some idle ex bluntie who hasnt put in the work to get promoted
.It was conceived to keep good dudes in the trades after their 22, when the pull of all that cash and pension often caused them to leave. The candidates are boarded so that those who put the work in get rewarded, not just I've done me time so give me the money, gladly we got rid of time promotion.
As for how it is actually done by our lords and masters will beggar belief as usual, not forgetting the interference from the scribbly world, who believe it is not fair that Aircrew get more money than clerks
.donning kevlar and stepping back from that baby
Charlie sends