UK Defence Restructuring
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pr00ne
"The decision makers in DPA are military and very senior, it is their lack of contract awareness and ability that frequently leads to procurement disasters when the vendors run rings round them."
Between that and the fact these decision makers are so far from the actual 'job' is why we are constantly screwed. They are making posts in procurement longer, but if we persist in putting the old, not very bold and out of touch there, we'll never get the proper kit! I'd rather see a closer link between that world and the front line - not a deepening void that is never crossed. Train some military types in contract law - and then stick it up the contractors!
"The decision makers in DPA are military and very senior, it is their lack of contract awareness and ability that frequently leads to procurement disasters when the vendors run rings round them."
Between that and the fact these decision makers are so far from the actual 'job' is why we are constantly screwed. They are making posts in procurement longer, but if we persist in putting the old, not very bold and out of touch there, we'll never get the proper kit! I'd rather see a closer link between that world and the front line - not a deepening void that is never crossed. Train some military types in contract law - and then stick it up the contractors!
You could ask why we spend 3% of the defence budget on Trident. Yes it's a lot of bang for the buck but is it a bang we need to keep?
Bin Jag, bin new carriers, cut back GR4, halve the purchase of Typhoon, halve (or more) the purchase of JSF.
Spend the money on more AT, get the next tanker right, proper comms for the pongoes, I could go on!
Bin Jag, bin new carriers, cut back GR4, halve the purchase of Typhoon, halve (or more) the purchase of JSF.
Spend the money on more AT, get the next tanker right, proper comms for the pongoes, I could go on!
Mr C Hinecap,
Can't disagree with your logic re the DPA but there is one fatal flaw;
if you "train some military types in contract law" then they'll be off to the City before you can say' C130J' to earn three times their current salary!
Regie Mental,
If you read the White Paper carefully I think it reveals that Typhoon is NOT where we willl see the fast jet cuts. There is a very heavy emphasis on multi role capability and a stated intention to reduce the number of single role fast jets.
That for me spells the end of the Jaguar and Tornado GR4 fleet. Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoon with an A2G capability is precisely what the White paper calls for.
I can see Typhoon and JSF continuing at full throttle. The White Paper says that the MoD is looking at "how and when we can reduce fast jet numbers"
So. look out for an immediate chopping of the Jag force, large cuts in the GR4 force when the final A2G tranche of Typhoon hits, another when JSF hits and the final dissapearance of GR4 when FOAS enters service in the guise of cruise missile launching platforms.
The units you quote may not be the one's to worry about, the Squadrons who are under threat I believe are; 2, 9,12, 13, 14, 31, 617 and maybe one of the Harrier units as a political fop to the RN to give a Naval number plate to more of the JSF units than their meagre staffing compliment will merit.
6, 41 and 54? I reckon it's good bye boys.
Cutting Tornado and Jaguar also neatly side steps the major political and industrial consequences of any reduction in UK Typhoon and JSF numbers.
Can't disagree with your logic re the DPA but there is one fatal flaw;
if you "train some military types in contract law" then they'll be off to the City before you can say' C130J' to earn three times their current salary!
Regie Mental,
If you read the White Paper carefully I think it reveals that Typhoon is NOT where we willl see the fast jet cuts. There is a very heavy emphasis on multi role capability and a stated intention to reduce the number of single role fast jets.
That for me spells the end of the Jaguar and Tornado GR4 fleet. Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoon with an A2G capability is precisely what the White paper calls for.
I can see Typhoon and JSF continuing at full throttle. The White Paper says that the MoD is looking at "how and when we can reduce fast jet numbers"
So. look out for an immediate chopping of the Jag force, large cuts in the GR4 force when the final A2G tranche of Typhoon hits, another when JSF hits and the final dissapearance of GR4 when FOAS enters service in the guise of cruise missile launching platforms.
The units you quote may not be the one's to worry about, the Squadrons who are under threat I believe are; 2, 9,12, 13, 14, 31, 617 and maybe one of the Harrier units as a political fop to the RN to give a Naval number plate to more of the JSF units than their meagre staffing compliment will merit.
6, 41 and 54? I reckon it's good bye boys.
Cutting Tornado and Jaguar also neatly side steps the major political and industrial consequences of any reduction in UK Typhoon and JSF numbers.
One of the GR7 units will disappear and re-emerge as an RN-plated squadron once the SHAR has gone - it'll be 800, 801 plus two of 1, 3 and 4.
Assuming that seniority plays a part in the decision making over which plates remain, the GR7 squadron that goes is near-certain to be a Typhoon unit, or failing that, JSF (unless a number plate is required for something in between - C-17s?UAVs?). 6 is very likely to survive as a number plate, given that it has (depending on your sources) never disbanded or has been disbanded for the shortest amount of time of any squadron. There is a cunning plan for the formation of Typhoon units, and I suspect that this was worked out with an eye to returning some of the more 'distinguished' plates to use (56, for instance).
617 will also most likely survive, since it is one of the two units awarded its standard early for exceptional service in WW2 (120 is the other). This is why, when the V-force ran down, 617 survived, despite being the most junior plate, and why 44 and 35 (all senior to 617) disappeared when the Tornado appeared, and why 101 was re-equipped with the VC10 rather than GR1 (and why 50 would have gone in 1982 had it not been for the tanker variant).
Assuming that seniority plays a part in the decision making over which plates remain, the GR7 squadron that goes is near-certain to be a Typhoon unit, or failing that, JSF (unless a number plate is required for something in between - C-17s?UAVs?). 6 is very likely to survive as a number plate, given that it has (depending on your sources) never disbanded or has been disbanded for the shortest amount of time of any squadron. There is a cunning plan for the formation of Typhoon units, and I suspect that this was worked out with an eye to returning some of the more 'distinguished' plates to use (56, for instance).
617 will also most likely survive, since it is one of the two units awarded its standard early for exceptional service in WW2 (120 is the other). This is why, when the V-force ran down, 617 survived, despite being the most junior plate, and why 44 and 35 (all senior to 617) disappeared when the Tornado appeared, and why 101 was re-equipped with the VC10 rather than GR1 (and why 50 would have gone in 1982 had it not been for the tanker variant).
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better idea
Bin Tornado
Bin Jaguar
Bin Euro fighter
Transfare JSF to fleet air arm
Transfare Puma, chinook & merlin to AAC
transfare sea king and nimrod to FAA
transfare Hercules and C17 to Army air corps or Heavy lift cargo as a specialist reserve
Disband RAF regt and transfare assets and personel to army
FTT to civy contractor
Sentry could go to FAA
DISBAND RAF and save billions
Bin Tornado
Bin Jaguar
Bin Euro fighter
Transfare JSF to fleet air arm
Transfare Puma, chinook & merlin to AAC
transfare sea king and nimrod to FAA
transfare Hercules and C17 to Army air corps or Heavy lift cargo as a specialist reserve
Disband RAF regt and transfare assets and personel to army
FTT to civy contractor
Sentry could go to FAA
DISBAND RAF and save billions
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I see the biggest problem being that we are looking to buy things that don't yet exist to replace items we're going to get rid of now.
"Lets get rid of half our tanks now, and replace them with lighter AFVs errrr...... when we've contracted, designed, built, and tested them - in 20 years time then, when we decide we don't need them because we've not had them for 20 years!" or "Typhoon isn't in service yet, but we can get rid of the F3, GR4, Jag, Harrier, etc now, because we know we are getting the Typhoon to replace them in a couple of years time... maybe."
It's not so much the technology transfer we're promising now, its the cuts that will be made when the technology / upgrade doesn't work as advertised (MRA4) or they decide we've lived without it for years, so why bother.
"Lets get rid of half our tanks now, and replace them with lighter AFVs errrr...... when we've contracted, designed, built, and tested them - in 20 years time then, when we decide we don't need them because we've not had them for 20 years!" or "Typhoon isn't in service yet, but we can get rid of the F3, GR4, Jag, Harrier, etc now, because we know we are getting the Typhoon to replace them in a couple of years time... maybe."
It's not so much the technology transfer we're promising now, its the cuts that will be made when the technology / upgrade doesn't work as advertised (MRA4) or they decide we've lived without it for years, so why bother.
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being serious
how multi role is eurofighter? could say 3 sqns of them replace 3 sqns of Jaguar and 3 tornado F3 sqns?
would eurofighter be able to replace Tornado GR4 and F3 sqn on the basis of 1:1:1?
I would sugest Jaguar will quietly slip away without replacement with the loss of 3 Sqns and Coltishal probably reroled as a base for troops withdrawn from Germany.
If Nimrod MRA4 goes the way of AEW3 what is the fallback position?
If the USN or Democrat president cut stovl JSF what is the fall back position for UK sea based airpower or will the navy be left with 2 white elephants?
how multi role is eurofighter? could say 3 sqns of them replace 3 sqns of Jaguar and 3 tornado F3 sqns?
would eurofighter be able to replace Tornado GR4 and F3 sqn on the basis of 1:1:1?
I would sugest Jaguar will quietly slip away without replacement with the loss of 3 Sqns and Coltishal probably reroled as a base for troops withdrawn from Germany.
If Nimrod MRA4 goes the way of AEW3 what is the fallback position?
If the USN or Democrat president cut stovl JSF what is the fall back position for UK sea based airpower or will the navy be left with 2 white elephants?
Under 'Option Caucasian Pachyderm', the RN has ensured that the design of CV(F) is 'future proof' with the ability to operate the CV variant of JSF (plus E-2 if selected as MASC [or whatever the acronym is today]). That's to say that the design could be adapted to take catapults and arrestor gear if required.
Whether this would happen, though, is questionable. Since the USMC still appears to want STOVL F-35, I doubt that the aircraft will be binned entirely.
I'm not sure exactly how multi-role Typhoon is - but remember that in the very dim and distant past it was designed specifically to replace the Jaguar, implying some capability in that regard. 17(R) will know the answer to that one, though! I guess that the ability to carry PW4, Brimstone (when it eventually arrives), etc will help.
The drawdown plan for the Jaguar and F3 units is such that the Jaguar squadrons (as it stands) won't fade away. IIRC , from an article by, I believe, one of the contributers to this site, 6 Sqn is scheduled to stand down in 2006, and will re-equip with the Typhoon. Or something like that.
No MRA4 would, I suppose, mean continuation of MR 2 and collaborating in the hunt for a P-3 replacement (currently ongoing in most P-3 operating nations)?
Whether this would happen, though, is questionable. Since the USMC still appears to want STOVL F-35, I doubt that the aircraft will be binned entirely.
I'm not sure exactly how multi-role Typhoon is - but remember that in the very dim and distant past it was designed specifically to replace the Jaguar, implying some capability in that regard. 17(R) will know the answer to that one, though! I guess that the ability to carry PW4, Brimstone (when it eventually arrives), etc will help.
The drawdown plan for the Jaguar and F3 units is such that the Jaguar squadrons (as it stands) won't fade away. IIRC , from an article by, I believe, one of the contributers to this site, 6 Sqn is scheduled to stand down in 2006, and will re-equip with the Typhoon. Or something like that.
No MRA4 would, I suppose, mean continuation of MR 2 and collaborating in the hunt for a P-3 replacement (currently ongoing in most P-3 operating nations)?
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on a few of the other boards the discussion seams to agree that the HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales. could suffer from design by accountant rather than naval architect and suffer from shrinking carrier syndrome. If this is the case i would sugest the E2 will be the first capability abandoned in favour of yet another lash up the Merlin AEW4.
Doesn't the USN have final say over USMC aircraft buys and it I would say would like to see the Stovl die off so it can preserve its doctrine that only huge carriers are capable of carrying modern aircraft. And with the Stovl only being a small number in the over all buy it is prime target for delays/chop if the Democrats get elected and do the usual slash defence spending.
Doesn't the USN have final say over USMC aircraft buys and it I would say would like to see the Stovl die off so it can preserve its doctrine that only huge carriers are capable of carrying modern aircraft. And with the Stovl only being a small number in the over all buy it is prime target for delays/chop if the Democrats get elected and do the usual slash defence spending.
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Me thinks some level minded civvy bean counters are needed to shake up this rabble we refer to as the UK armed forces.
Yes they need the kit, but they need to cut the cr@p.
Why bean counters (with real minds, not political ones), because they go after the real waste not the froth.
Cut out the history, it's the past after all. If you want no move foward, do so. Just get on with whats right, not what squadron or regiment must be kept, because they are yonks old. Merge, Merge Merge. Save, save , save.
Civvy the posts they are most suitable for, and get commercial reality onto purchasing and admin. Not clock watching to pension time. Scrap the money drain posts, stewards, horse guards, bands etc.
So what is MR4a for. Do we need 2 dozen sub hunters in this era ?. Multi role Typhoon ? Cold war junk ?. If you want euro multi role, buy the latest Saab offering, off the shelf, fixed price and 4th generation multi role.
How to raise more cash. How many acres of land do UK mod own. Sell, Merge, Move redundant bases. £ 1m an acre with planning ?
It's ok looking up to the US, but they spend more on burgers than our whole defence budget. Keep it real.
Yes they need the kit, but they need to cut the cr@p.
Why bean counters (with real minds, not political ones), because they go after the real waste not the froth.
Cut out the history, it's the past after all. If you want no move foward, do so. Just get on with whats right, not what squadron or regiment must be kept, because they are yonks old. Merge, Merge Merge. Save, save , save.
Civvy the posts they are most suitable for, and get commercial reality onto purchasing and admin. Not clock watching to pension time. Scrap the money drain posts, stewards, horse guards, bands etc.
So what is MR4a for. Do we need 2 dozen sub hunters in this era ?. Multi role Typhoon ? Cold war junk ?. If you want euro multi role, buy the latest Saab offering, off the shelf, fixed price and 4th generation multi role.
How to raise more cash. How many acres of land do UK mod own. Sell, Merge, Move redundant bases. £ 1m an acre with planning ?
It's ok looking up to the US, but they spend more on burgers than our whole defence budget. Keep it real.
Oscar,
But part of the problem is that these professionally-minded civvy bean-counters never look at waste and inefficiency in the bean-counting arena... Also, it'd be nigh-on impossible to have cuts imposed without political elements. Can you imagine the scene in cabinet?
Buff: So our independent consultants say we should buy Aermacchi super-trainers rather than the Hawk 128.
Prescott: they do, do they? How much are we paying these bl**dy clowns, eh? What about my constituents? Not bl**dy likely, Geoffrey, boy!
etc, etc, etc...
MRA 4 - 18, not two dozen. Long Range Non-penetrating Aircaft. MRA 4 is (titter ye not) going to be a multi-role ASW, ASuW, ISTAR and Strategic Attack asset (if the funding to realise the capabilities is released).
But part of the problem is that these professionally-minded civvy bean-counters never look at waste and inefficiency in the bean-counting arena... Also, it'd be nigh-on impossible to have cuts imposed without political elements. Can you imagine the scene in cabinet?
Buff: So our independent consultants say we should buy Aermacchi super-trainers rather than the Hawk 128.
Prescott: they do, do they? How much are we paying these bl**dy clowns, eh? What about my constituents? Not bl**dy likely, Geoffrey, boy!
etc, etc, etc...
MRA 4 - 18, not two dozen. Long Range Non-penetrating Aircaft. MRA 4 is (titter ye not) going to be a multi-role ASW, ASuW, ISTAR and Strategic Attack asset (if the funding to realise the capabilities is released).
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Ahem!
If I may just counter some of the clamor to bin GR4 in order to get more multi role aircraft:
GR4 flew more hours and sorties than any other British combat aircraft during Op TELIC.
Types of sorties included:
Stand off recce (no other combat platform can carry the pod)
Storm Shadow (no other combat aircraft can carry/is cleared)
Low level TST (no other UK combat aircraft has all weather day/night low level capability)
Enhanced PW2 and 3 attacks (no other UK combat aircraft cleared for both these types or can carry them in some cases)
ALARM (only GR4/F3)
Standard precision weaponry
Unguided weaponry
Strafe
Close air support
Without banging on too much, I would hazard to suggest that it has a valid role now and for some years to come, being that it is powerful and flexible, abeit over-engineered and expensive to support. That could change if the MOD changed the way it administers airworthiness of aircraft but that would be digressing..
If I may just counter some of the clamor to bin GR4 in order to get more multi role aircraft:
GR4 flew more hours and sorties than any other British combat aircraft during Op TELIC.
Types of sorties included:
Stand off recce (no other combat platform can carry the pod)
Storm Shadow (no other combat aircraft can carry/is cleared)
Low level TST (no other UK combat aircraft has all weather day/night low level capability)
Enhanced PW2 and 3 attacks (no other UK combat aircraft cleared for both these types or can carry them in some cases)
ALARM (only GR4/F3)
Standard precision weaponry
Unguided weaponry
Strafe
Close air support
Without banging on too much, I would hazard to suggest that it has a valid role now and for some years to come, being that it is powerful and flexible, abeit over-engineered and expensive to support. That could change if the MOD changed the way it administers airworthiness of aircraft but that would be digressing..
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You just watch the RAF swap aircraft that work for new ones that don't.
Nothing new there - we've been doing it for years.
Big problem now though is that we will not be swopping one for one - so we'll end up with less that don't work.
Quantity has a quality all of its' own.
Nothing new there - we've been doing it for years.
Big problem now though is that we will not be swopping one for one - so we'll end up with less that don't work.
Quantity has a quality all of its' own.
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why do we always accept kit that isn't properley developed? How long has eurofighter been in the pipeline? And when new kit arrives on operational units it doesn't do what its ment to. What is the procurment/evaluation process doing wrong?
Save Money
An easy way to save money:
Amalgamate all three services into one 'purple' outfit, and make 2/3 of all officers redundant.
We will then have the correct amount of management for the number of erk's that we have.
Amalgamate all three services into one 'purple' outfit, and make 2/3 of all officers redundant.
We will then have the correct amount of management for the number of erk's that we have.
Last edited by ZH875; 16th Dec 2003 at 01:51.