Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
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given the behaviour of some members HM Forces this weekend Mod has a very large damage limitation exercise to carryout, And there was very little empathy/sympathy for the plight of UK Forces in Kent on Sat night/Sunday.
Nurse,
While I understand your concern and probable disgust, at least you can be safe in the knowledge that if any Service personnel are found to have mis-behaved, they will be treated with a damn sight more justice than the average yob on the street!
While I understand your concern and probable disgust, at least you can be safe in the knowledge that if any Service personnel are found to have mis-behaved, they will be treated with a damn sight more justice than the average yob on the street!
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NPPO or not?
Recently there was discussion on other threads of limits on flying hours being placed on aircraft in Afghanistan, largely due to the cost and limited stocks of spares. This makes me suspect that there is some truth in this story from the Telegraph:
Troops use up ammo as war with Taliban claims 14th life
Troops use up ammo as war with Taliban claims 14th life
All very laudable one would think, but four or so years down the line,
Do you get the correct fastener when you demand it and when you want it?
Do you get the correct piece of equipment to fit the fastener and does it arrive in time?
Do you get the correct aircraft fuel tank sealant for example and is it still in date and does that arrive in time?
Do you get the equipment spares you so desperately require and at the time you want them?
Do you get the technical support that you enjoyed pre NPPO?
Can you now afford what you want out of your meagre budgets considering there is a further middle-man in the supply chain?
Is it really working?
Modtinbasher
21 years ago, the Naval Air Radio Stores Integration (NARSI) initiative was in full flow. Aims were exactly the same as the ones you list. RN had to close their stores and workshops at Copenacre. RAF suppliers took over commodity management, but the workshop capability (2nd line filter) was lost forever.
Copenacre had four staff (EO, plus 3 AOs) managing all air radio spares, including main LRUs and test equipment. At a conservative guess, they were replaced with about 30 staff at Harrogate, with a raft of Sqn Ldrs, Wg Cdrs and Gp Capts in charge. And the RAF had a lesser stores computer system (4/72).
Wasted tens, if not hundreds, of millions – scrapped much needed spares, bought duplicates for kit which had gone out of service. You name it, they mismanaged it. Crucified by auditors, whom they ignored. And because the filter benches were lost, the no fault found rate rocketed at 3rd and 4th line – more waste, causing outstanding demands at first line. And they never did get the hang of the concept of a ship being at sea for 6 months, or their storing demands. I remember Gannet (Prestwick, Scotland) was signalled by Harrogate to send a spare LRU they had to Ark Royal – by Red Star, overnight, to arrive 0900 next day. OK if it’s between RAF stations, but Ark was half way between Hong Kong and Sydney. “OK, we’ll fly it out by Herc”. “And land where?” “Well, it’s an aircraft carrier isn’t it, we’ll land on”. “Can’t”. “We’ll airdrop it”. They never did learn.
21 years ago, the Naval Air Radio Stores Integration (NARSI) initiative was in full flow. Aims were exactly the same as the ones you list. RN had to close their stores and workshops at Copenacre. RAF suppliers took over commodity management, but the workshop capability (2nd line filter) was lost forever.
Copenacre had four staff (EO, plus 3 AOs) managing all air radio spares, including main LRUs and test equipment. At a conservative guess, they were replaced with about 30 staff at Harrogate, with a raft of Sqn Ldrs, Wg Cdrs and Gp Capts in charge. And the RAF had a lesser stores computer system (4/72).
Wasted tens, if not hundreds, of millions – scrapped much needed spares, bought duplicates for kit which had gone out of service. You name it, they mismanaged it. Crucified by auditors, whom they ignored. And because the filter benches were lost, the no fault found rate rocketed at 3rd and 4th line – more waste, causing outstanding demands at first line. And they never did get the hang of the concept of a ship being at sea for 6 months, or their storing demands. I remember Gannet (Prestwick, Scotland) was signalled by Harrogate to send a spare LRU they had to Ark Royal – by Red Star, overnight, to arrive 0900 next day. OK if it’s between RAF stations, but Ark was half way between Hong Kong and Sydney. “OK, we’ll fly it out by Herc”. “And land where?” “Well, it’s an aircraft carrier isn’t it, we’ll land on”. “Can’t”. “We’ll airdrop it”. They never did learn.
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tucumseh
Yes, as you say, and then there was Harrogate, and London, and Bath, then John Major came into power, lived in the house on the hill, and lo and behold there were the Wyton donuts and Harrogate and London became Wyton and Abbey Wood and John looked thereon and happiness abounded. So it came to pass that the Services became one and a purple cloud descended upon the masses, many promotions were secured and then John went to his cottage in Norfolk. Brampton became Wyton and Wyton became Abbey Wood and various Royal Air Force stations begat local airports and all was good as BAE Systems and Marshalls took control of the Land.
And then I awoke and realised I'd not had a bad dream at all ................
Yes, as you say, and then there was Harrogate, and London, and Bath, then John Major came into power, lived in the house on the hill, and lo and behold there were the Wyton donuts and Harrogate and London became Wyton and Abbey Wood and John looked thereon and happiness abounded. So it came to pass that the Services became one and a purple cloud descended upon the masses, many promotions were secured and then John went to his cottage in Norfolk. Brampton became Wyton and Wyton became Abbey Wood and various Royal Air Force stations begat local airports and all was good as BAE Systems and Marshalls took control of the Land.
And then I awoke and realised I'd not had a bad dream at all ................
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Yes but a team espically selected for recruiting misbehaving is a huge PR disaster
Thread Starter
Surely yobbish behaviour is pretty much the norm in the UK now, so when service personnel are portrayed as drunks/louts etc it is nothing more than hypocrisy. Also its about finding an easy target for blaming alcohol related violence.
Talking of hypocrisy most criminal behaviour is not punished, the liberal lawyers who decide which cases to pursue think things like assault and drug dealing are not worth court time, the infantryman in a firefight with the Taleban is liable to prosecution if a liberal and very PC lawyer thinks he used excessive force.
How did this happen?
Talking of hypocrisy most criminal behaviour is not punished, the liberal lawyers who decide which cases to pursue think things like assault and drug dealing are not worth court time, the infantryman in a firefight with the Taleban is liable to prosecution if a liberal and very PC lawyer thinks he used excessive force.
How did this happen?
WEBF
Simple, it didn't happen!
As a Barrister I can assure you that you are spouting rubbish of the highest order.
Show me ONE instance of an infantryman being charged with using excessive force in a firefight with the Taleban.
If you really think that most criminal behaviour goes unpunished you try thumping someone in public view or on CCTV, I think you'll find you are in for a bit of a surprise!
I and a good number of my colleagues are rather closer to this than you are and I can assure you that our courts and our prisons are full of folk who thought they could get away with violent behaviour in public!
Simple, it didn't happen!
As a Barrister I can assure you that you are spouting rubbish of the highest order.
Show me ONE instance of an infantryman being charged with using excessive force in a firefight with the Taleban.
If you really think that most criminal behaviour goes unpunished you try thumping someone in public view or on CCTV, I think you'll find you are in for a bit of a surprise!
I and a good number of my colleagues are rather closer to this than you are and I can assure you that our courts and our prisons are full of folk who thought they could get away with violent behaviour in public!
Thread Starter
Even if it didn't happen, the perception is that you need to think about what you will say to the lawyers before you squeeze the trigger - even if you follow ROE to the letter. I base this both on things I've heard, the guidance currently given to RN personnel on certain courses, and on talking to a practisising lawyer.
Regarding law and order more generally, well I hope you're right.
Regarding law and order more generally, well I hope you're right.
Thread Starter
Whilst searching the MOD website for other stuff I came across an interesting and rare article on the activities of one of our submarines.
Superb submarine returns....
In the first half of her deployment, Superb supported the UK effort to safely evacuate UK nationals from Lebanon in Operation Highbrow. Her specific role was to help protect the Royal Navy ships involved in the operation, by using her sensors to watch for any surface or aerial threat to the UK naval force.
Of course this didn't make the headlines, submarine operations seldom do. But submarines have played a part in all recent operations (excluding Sierra Leone). They have frequently been used in ISTAR type roles, and like other ISTAR assets (Nimrods (both types), AWACS and others) rarely recieve the recognition they deserve.
Superb submarine returns....
In the first half of her deployment, Superb supported the UK effort to safely evacuate UK nationals from Lebanon in Operation Highbrow. Her specific role was to help protect the Royal Navy ships involved in the operation, by using her sensors to watch for any surface or aerial threat to the UK naval force.
Of course this didn't make the headlines, submarine operations seldom do. But submarines have played a part in all recent operations (excluding Sierra Leone). They have frequently been used in ISTAR type roles, and like other ISTAR assets (Nimrods (both types), AWACS and others) rarely recieve the recognition they deserve.
Thread Starter
Thankyou.
Another paragraph from that article:
Following a stop in Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean to take on supplies, Superb continued national operations as part of the war against Global Counter Terrorism.
How many members of the public know that submarines are very much involved in current operations? Therefore when cutbacks happen, there is little opposition.
Having said that, surveys show that a worrying large chunk don't associate submarines with the RN!!
HMS Endurance is again supporting scientists from the British Anatarctic Survey. See this story from the RN website.
In order to understand climate change and make realistic predictions, both scientists and Governments need to understand how the climate has changed in the past. This is for two reasons. Firstly the models used by climate scientists to predict future change need to be ‘tested’ against past data to make sure that they can correctly simulate climate changes. Secondly, a record of past changes in climate is needed in order to understand the long-term context of climate change caused by human activities. In other words, we need to know the longer-term trends in order to correctly interpret the origin of the recent (short-term) changes.
Later............
HMS Endurance is critical to the success of this work as its helicopters provide access to many remote regions and the capability to lift the heavy equipment required by the scientists. The BAS team have been able to use the logistic capabilities of the ship and helicopters to place field camps in several locations across a wide area of the South Shetlands and northern Antarctic Peninsula. The work will continue through most of the Antarctic summer, with HMS Endurance collecting the last field teams and returning them to the Falkland Islands in late January.
Chances of the RN getting recognition for this...........any guesses?
Another paragraph from that article:
Following a stop in Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean to take on supplies, Superb continued national operations as part of the war against Global Counter Terrorism.
How many members of the public know that submarines are very much involved in current operations? Therefore when cutbacks happen, there is little opposition.
Having said that, surveys show that a worrying large chunk don't associate submarines with the RN!!
HMS Endurance is again supporting scientists from the British Anatarctic Survey. See this story from the RN website.
In order to understand climate change and make realistic predictions, both scientists and Governments need to understand how the climate has changed in the past. This is for two reasons. Firstly the models used by climate scientists to predict future change need to be ‘tested’ against past data to make sure that they can correctly simulate climate changes. Secondly, a record of past changes in climate is needed in order to understand the long-term context of climate change caused by human activities. In other words, we need to know the longer-term trends in order to correctly interpret the origin of the recent (short-term) changes.
Later............
HMS Endurance is critical to the success of this work as its helicopters provide access to many remote regions and the capability to lift the heavy equipment required by the scientists. The BAS team have been able to use the logistic capabilities of the ship and helicopters to place field camps in several locations across a wide area of the South Shetlands and northern Antarctic Peninsula. The work will continue through most of the Antarctic summer, with HMS Endurance collecting the last field teams and returning them to the Falkland Islands in late January.
Chances of the RN getting recognition for this...........any guesses?
Thread Starter
What makes me think that? Public acknowledgement of RN submarines being involved in:
Gulf 1991, two old O class diesel subs were involved in operations. Reece, possibly some SF type stuff.
Adriatic 90s, Operation Sharp Guard involved RN submarines, after the operation ceased this was acknowleged.
Kosovo 1997, reece and ELINT type stuff and first use of Tomahawk by non US forces.
Afgahnistan 2001, UK boats fired Tomahawks at Taliban targets, and perform other roles.
Iraq 2003, UK boats fire Tomahawk at regime targets, and perform other roles.
War on terror (ongoing), submarines perform ISTAR and other roles.
Gulf 1991, two old O class diesel subs were involved in operations. Reece, possibly some SF type stuff.
Adriatic 90s, Operation Sharp Guard involved RN submarines, after the operation ceased this was acknowleged.
Kosovo 1997, reece and ELINT type stuff and first use of Tomahawk by non US forces.
Afgahnistan 2001, UK boats fired Tomahawks at Taliban targets, and perform other roles.
Iraq 2003, UK boats fire Tomahawk at regime targets, and perform other roles.
War on terror (ongoing), submarines perform ISTAR and other roles.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
None involved in Afghanistan or Sierra Leone Operations, at least according to the MOD.
Hansard:
Mr. Wray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which Royal Navy vessels were involved in the (a) Iraq, (b) Afghanistan, (c) Saif Sareea II, (d) Sierra Leone and (e) Kosovo operations; and what primary role they played. [124059]
Mr. Ingram: The following Royal Navy vessels took part in Op Telic in Iraq:
HMS Ark Royal, in her Landing Platform Helicopter (LPH) role and HMS Ocean in her role as amphibious carrier and Landing Platform Helicopter.
HMS Edinburgh, Liverpool and York carried out their role as destroyers, providing air defence for the task group.
HMS Marlborough, Chatham and Richmond carried out the role of close range protection for the carriers and other high value units.
HMS Blyth, Bangor, Brocklesby, Sandown, Grimsby, Ledbury, Ramsey and Shoreham were deployed on mine clearance tasks.
HMS Roebuck was deployed in her coastal survey role.
HMS Splendid and Turbulent provided strike weapon platform capability.
RFA's Sir Percival , Sir Tristram, Sir Galahad and Sir Bedivere were deployed in the Landing Ship Logistic role;
RFA's Grey Rover, Bayleaf, Brambleleaf and Orangeleaf were deployed as Fleet tankers.
RFA Fort Rosalie, Fort Austin and Fort Victoria were deployed as Fleet Replenishment ships, providing stores for the task group.
RFA Argus was deployed in her role as Primary Casualty Receiving Facility.
RFA Diligence was deployed as Forward Repair Ship.
RFA Sea Crusader was used in the strategic sea lift role.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Afghanistan—Op Oracle
HMS Illustrious provided air projection and a command platform.
HMS York, HMS Southampton and HMS Cornwall provided air protection.
RFA Fort Rosalie, RFA Fort Austin, RFA Fort Victoria, RFA Fort George, RFA Sir Tristram, RFA Sir Galahad, RFA Sir Bedivere and RFA Sir Percival provided support, fuel and stores.
RFA Diligence was deployed as forward repair vessel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Saif Sareea II
HMS Illustrious provided air projection and a command platform.
HMS Ocean deployed as Landing Platform Helicopter.
HMS Fearless deployed as Landing Platform Dock and provided an amphibious capability.
HMS Nottingham and HMS Southampton deployed in an AAW capacity, providing air defence.
HMS Monmouth, HMS Marlborough, HMS Cornwall acted as escorts.
HMS Quorn, Cattistock, HMS Walney, HMS Inverness, and HMS Roebuck worked as survey ships and also Mine Operations.
RFA Sir Tristram, RFA Sir Galahad, RFA Sir Bedivere, RFA Sir Percival, RFA Diligence, RFA Fort Rosalie, RFA Fort Austin and RFA Fort Victoria provided fuel, logistic support, stores, and land force transportation capabilities and a forward repair facility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sierra Leone—Op Palliser
HMS Illustrious provided air projection and a command platform.
HMS Ocean provided a helicopter platform.
HMS Chatham and HMS Argyll provided force protection and acted as escorts.
RFA Fort Austin, RFA Fort George, RFA Brambleleaf provided tanker support.
RFA Sir Bedivere and RFA Sir Geraint provided support, fuel and logistics.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kosovo—Op Allied Force
HMS Splendid and HMS Turbulent carried out submarine tasking.
HMS Invincible was deployed as CVS.
HMS Newcastle and HMS Iron Duke were responsible for anti-air warfare (AAW).
HMS Somerset, HMS Grafton, HMS Norfolk and HMS Coventry carried out patrols and Maritime Interdiction Operations (MIOPs).
HMS Atherstone, HMS Sandown and HMS Bulldog carried out surveys and mine clearance patrols.
RFA Argus acted as an aviation platform and Primary Casualty Receiving Facility.
RFA Bayleaf deployed as Fleet tanker.
RFA Fort Austin, RFA Sea Centurion, RFA Sea Crusader and RFA Sir Geraint provided stores and logistic support.
Hansard:
Mr. Wray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which Royal Navy vessels were involved in the (a) Iraq, (b) Afghanistan, (c) Saif Sareea II, (d) Sierra Leone and (e) Kosovo operations; and what primary role they played. [124059]
Mr. Ingram: The following Royal Navy vessels took part in Op Telic in Iraq:
HMS Ark Royal, in her Landing Platform Helicopter (LPH) role and HMS Ocean in her role as amphibious carrier and Landing Platform Helicopter.
HMS Edinburgh, Liverpool and York carried out their role as destroyers, providing air defence for the task group.
HMS Marlborough, Chatham and Richmond carried out the role of close range protection for the carriers and other high value units.
HMS Blyth, Bangor, Brocklesby, Sandown, Grimsby, Ledbury, Ramsey and Shoreham were deployed on mine clearance tasks.
HMS Roebuck was deployed in her coastal survey role.
HMS Splendid and Turbulent provided strike weapon platform capability.
RFA's Sir Percival , Sir Tristram, Sir Galahad and Sir Bedivere were deployed in the Landing Ship Logistic role;
RFA's Grey Rover, Bayleaf, Brambleleaf and Orangeleaf were deployed as Fleet tankers.
RFA Fort Rosalie, Fort Austin and Fort Victoria were deployed as Fleet Replenishment ships, providing stores for the task group.
RFA Argus was deployed in her role as Primary Casualty Receiving Facility.
RFA Diligence was deployed as Forward Repair Ship.
RFA Sea Crusader was used in the strategic sea lift role.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Afghanistan—Op Oracle
HMS Illustrious provided air projection and a command platform.
HMS York, HMS Southampton and HMS Cornwall provided air protection.
RFA Fort Rosalie, RFA Fort Austin, RFA Fort Victoria, RFA Fort George, RFA Sir Tristram, RFA Sir Galahad, RFA Sir Bedivere and RFA Sir Percival provided support, fuel and stores.
RFA Diligence was deployed as forward repair vessel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Saif Sareea II
HMS Illustrious provided air projection and a command platform.
HMS Ocean deployed as Landing Platform Helicopter.
HMS Fearless deployed as Landing Platform Dock and provided an amphibious capability.
HMS Nottingham and HMS Southampton deployed in an AAW capacity, providing air defence.
HMS Monmouth, HMS Marlborough, HMS Cornwall acted as escorts.
HMS Quorn, Cattistock, HMS Walney, HMS Inverness, and HMS Roebuck worked as survey ships and also Mine Operations.
RFA Sir Tristram, RFA Sir Galahad, RFA Sir Bedivere, RFA Sir Percival, RFA Diligence, RFA Fort Rosalie, RFA Fort Austin and RFA Fort Victoria provided fuel, logistic support, stores, and land force transportation capabilities and a forward repair facility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sierra Leone—Op Palliser
HMS Illustrious provided air projection and a command platform.
HMS Ocean provided a helicopter platform.
HMS Chatham and HMS Argyll provided force protection and acted as escorts.
RFA Fort Austin, RFA Fort George, RFA Brambleleaf provided tanker support.
RFA Sir Bedivere and RFA Sir Geraint provided support, fuel and logistics.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kosovo—Op Allied Force
HMS Splendid and HMS Turbulent carried out submarine tasking.
HMS Invincible was deployed as CVS.
HMS Newcastle and HMS Iron Duke were responsible for anti-air warfare (AAW).
HMS Somerset, HMS Grafton, HMS Norfolk and HMS Coventry carried out patrols and Maritime Interdiction Operations (MIOPs).
HMS Atherstone, HMS Sandown and HMS Bulldog carried out surveys and mine clearance patrols.
RFA Argus acted as an aviation platform and Primary Casualty Receiving Facility.
RFA Bayleaf deployed as Fleet tanker.
RFA Fort Austin, RFA Sea Centurion, RFA Sea Crusader and RFA Sir Geraint provided stores and logistic support.
Thread Starter
Not what the chronology says.
Look at the bottom.......
13 Oct 01 US and UK forces attacked seventeen targets. Royal Navy Tomahawk missiles were fired, and RAF aircraft flew combat support missions.
7 Oct 01 Royal Navy submarine-launched Tomahawk missiles were fired at a terrorist site
Look at the bottom.......
13 Oct 01 US and UK forces attacked seventeen targets. Royal Navy Tomahawk missiles were fired, and RAF aircraft flew combat support missions.
7 Oct 01 Royal Navy submarine-launched Tomahawk missiles were fired at a terrorist site
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 22nd Nov 2006 at 14:12.
Thread Starter
From the Gaurdian: Brassed Off
For 400 years, politicians and soldiers have carefully maintained a formal distance between policy and operations. Now they want a say. Sir Richard Dannatt, the serving chief of the general staff, suggests that British troops should "get out [of Iraq] sometime soon", while the man in charge on the ground, General Shirreff, declares that "a 100% solution" is not an option. The retired officers are even more outspoken. In an interview in October, Lord Guthrie, Mr Blair's favourite soldier, described the Afghanistan war as "cuckoo". It is easy to be sympathetic to their cause: they lead forces who risk their lives every day, while we at home complain that they should not be there at all. But before it is allowed to lapse altogether, it is worth remembering that there is a good reason for the traditional relationship. Society owes a debt to the armed forces. But we, not they, decide what they do.
For 400 years, politicians and soldiers have carefully maintained a formal distance between policy and operations. Now they want a say. Sir Richard Dannatt, the serving chief of the general staff, suggests that British troops should "get out [of Iraq] sometime soon", while the man in charge on the ground, General Shirreff, declares that "a 100% solution" is not an option. The retired officers are even more outspoken. In an interview in October, Lord Guthrie, Mr Blair's favourite soldier, described the Afghanistan war as "cuckoo". It is easy to be sympathetic to their cause: they lead forces who risk their lives every day, while we at home complain that they should not be there at all. But before it is allowed to lapse altogether, it is worth remembering that there is a good reason for the traditional relationship. Society owes a debt to the armed forces. But we, not they, decide what they do.