F3 Belly Landing! (Merged)
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Same thing happened in the early 90s at Coningsby, also an OCU jet. Back then, there was a bit of FOD in the gear handle that shorted out the main system and a leak in the emergency system so no gear available. The F3 is ideal for belly landings with such a flat underside and planned wheels up landings are catered for in the FRCs. On that occasion there was hardly any damage - and I've still got the arrestor hook bracket as a souvenir!
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yachtpilot:
The 'exact event' I referred to was the swept wing approach and not the gear-up landing. This was done by carrying out approaches and low overshoots in the particular configuration as part of the regular cycle of 'BTRs' (Basic Training Requirements). Apologies for the confusion!
We did have a specific drill for landing with gear unsafe, and there were a number of scenarios that would have resulted in a pre-meditated ejection. The one that comes to mind was if one main gear was stuck up and one was stuck down as clearly there was a danger of the aircraft cartwheeling on landing. We had a very good simulator which although very realistic lacked visuals, so the final stages of an approach could not be recreated. This is in contrast to a number of airline simulators I have subsequently flown which have the ability to recreate wheels-up landings including slewing the aircraft on the runway and graunching noises!
The 'exact event' I referred to was the swept wing approach and not the gear-up landing. This was done by carrying out approaches and low overshoots in the particular configuration as part of the regular cycle of 'BTRs' (Basic Training Requirements). Apologies for the confusion!
We did have a specific drill for landing with gear unsafe, and there were a number of scenarios that would have resulted in a pre-meditated ejection. The one that comes to mind was if one main gear was stuck up and one was stuck down as clearly there was a danger of the aircraft cartwheeling on landing. We had a very good simulator which although very realistic lacked visuals, so the final stages of an approach could not be recreated. This is in contrast to a number of airline simulators I have subsequently flown which have the ability to recreate wheels-up landings including slewing the aircraft on the runway and graunching noises!
Join Date: Jan 2001
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<<Think how much we taxpayers have saved not paying for search and salvage to investigate the problem>>
Errr.... but depending on the damage, we have "committed" the taxpayer to now mending the damn thing! Which may be a lot more than any investigation - depends how many F3s we have over "budget"...
<<Medals for the crew>>
So long as the reports are true.... absolutely.
<<I am slightly surprised that it was considered safer to land gear up rather than take the Martin-Baker option>>
The MB letdown always sounds a good idea, until confronted with a pre-meditated ejection. At that point, you'll try to find any other way to deal with the problem.
It is a fact that many aircraft have made unintentional wheels up landings, usually with more damage to someone's pride than the airframe. A Tonka has a nice flat belly... just the problem of getting it flat onto the runway and hands around the handle if it goes off sideways <G> Piccy's will be interesting...
NoD
Errr.... but depending on the damage, we have "committed" the taxpayer to now mending the damn thing! Which may be a lot more than any investigation - depends how many F3s we have over "budget"...
<<Medals for the crew>>
So long as the reports are true.... absolutely.
<<I am slightly surprised that it was considered safer to land gear up rather than take the Martin-Baker option>>
The MB letdown always sounds a good idea, until confronted with a pre-meditated ejection. At that point, you'll try to find any other way to deal with the problem.
It is a fact that many aircraft have made unintentional wheels up landings, usually with more damage to someone's pride than the airframe. A Tonka has a nice flat belly... just the problem of getting it flat onto the runway and hands around the handle if it goes off sideways <G> Piccy's will be interesting...
NoD
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I remember a Jag landing wheels up at Laarbruch Germany in the 70s.Nice flat belly ,very little damage, repaired and flying again in days.Likewise a Bucc at Leuchars late 70s I think.Inspite of the round bomb door fuel tank, the a/c landed with again little damage. As for the Tornado, a nice wide flat belly should make for little damage.The comment regarding costing more than an inquiry, I think you will find the previous poster meant it is cheaper because an inquiry into a crash means the a/c is a total loss
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Some pictures of the previous incident at http://www.tornado-data.com/Misc/mishaps.htm
I was told it was at Cottesmore, is that correct?
I was told it was at Cottesmore, is that correct?
Yes, Him
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Two threads on this have just been merged, in case you are confused. Like what I was.
just like to add that a night bang-out into the North Sea at this time of year is not an option I'd like to contemplate. Well done the crew.
just like to add that a night bang-out into the North Sea at this time of year is not an option I'd like to contemplate. Well done the crew.
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Just to add a few facts:
Approach speed in 25 Wing, full flap is 150kts (plus a bit if you have extra fuel)
An F3 has been landed in 67 wing - at Leuchars about 4/5 years ago. Approach speed is (I think) 217kts. Overrun cable definitely required!
Approach speed in 25 Wing, full flap is 150kts (plus a bit if you have extra fuel)
An F3 has been landed in 67 wing - at Leuchars about 4/5 years ago. Approach speed is (I think) 217kts. Overrun cable definitely required!
Paxing All Over The World
Todays' article from the BBC contains a small pictures. It appears to show that they only foamed the machine as it came to rest, rather than a whole blanket. But the picture is small.
This article names the crew as: Flight Lieutenants Simon Grieve and Graham Harvey. Flt Lt Grieve had only eight hours' flying time on type made the landing.
This article names the crew as: Flight Lieutenants Simon Grieve and Graham Harvey. Flt Lt Grieve had only eight hours' flying time on type made the landing.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3295141.stm
BBC have put a pic of a rather sad tornado sitting on the runway. Looks like is stopped pretty quickly, as it doesn't look like its passed the runway interection (although if the pic was taken from a long distance (the perimeter fence) then it could be quite deceptive!
BBC have put a pic of a rather sad tornado sitting on the runway. Looks like is stopped pretty quickly, as it doesn't look like its passed the runway interection (although if the pic was taken from a long distance (the perimeter fence) then it could be quite deceptive!
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Heard an interview with the crew this evening on the radio, Fl Lt Grieve mentioned he had only been flying the F.3 for about three weeks having crossed over to pilot from navigator, interestingly he also said that in his last sim ride he had practised this exact type of emergency!
-RP
-RP
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The drill for a wheels up landing in an F3 is for a mid-flap approach that adds about 10 knots to the threshold speed but puts the aircraft in a very flat attitude. Provided the aircraft is settled onto the ground gently, there shouldn't be too much damage apart from some skin panels need replacing and a few bits of other hardware. Not diffficult or expensive to repair and much better than a Martin Baker letdown. In fact, they would have been in trouble if they had jumped out because the F3 is cleared to land wheels up. The only potential problem is a crosswind that takes you off the runway after the rudder loses control effectiveness. The wing tip is not far from the ground and it might dig in and flip the aircradt if you're on the grass. In my case, we agreed that the Nav would command eject us out if the aircraft started to go near the edge of the runway. What we didn't realise was that operating the crash bar to kill the enmgines and operate the fire extinguishers also cut off the intercom. Caused a moments excitement as we turned a little and I didn't want to be fired out with full rudder on and one thigh off the seat. Stopped OK in the end not too far from the centre-line.
Undoubtably these chaps did a fine job (especially the new chap) but people posting about "martin baker letdowns" are probably (mostly) doing so with a non FJ back-ground. Lets face it - gear ups happen fairly frequently and what happens - jack it up, change a few panels and she's good to go. It doesn't often end up in rivulets of aluminium all over the main. It is much easier to consider a challenging approach than pulling the handle.
As for the talk of "didn't they do well, they deserve a medal", yes they did marvellously but lets not go down the American route. They were only doing their job, even if it was very skilfully. One of the great strengths about our armed services is that we've always done the most extraordinary things and shrugged it off as being part of the service.
As for the talk of "didn't they do well, they deserve a medal", yes they did marvellously but lets not go down the American route. They were only doing their job, even if it was very skilfully. One of the great strengths about our armed services is that we've always done the most extraordinary things and shrugged it off as being part of the service.
Supercalifragilistic
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expialidocious
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Postman Plod
Looks like is stopped pretty quickly, as it doesn't look like its passed the runway interection
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A Happy End!
Any emergency that has a happy ending is the kind of news we like to hear! Well done Si and Harvs! I'm sure it wasn't just a pint of water required after that one!! 
Si, good to see you got your crossover man! Must catch up for a sherbet or two soon!!
Cheers
TJFC
Si, good to see you got your crossover man! Must catch up for a sherbet or two soon!!
Cheers
TJFC
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Just come from the thread on Aircrew notices. Interesting comments there...not sure if I should have even responded to them. Can someone have a look at it and give me a response to what is being said there.