Khe Sanh Descents..
Pprune Voyeur
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Khe Sanh Descents..
A few years ago, I was reading about the battle of Khe San, during the Vietnam war. I distinctly remember something called a "Khe Sanh" descent, whereby aircraft resupplying the besieged garrison made a tight, spiralling descent from directly above the landing strip, to avoid Viet Cong/NVA anti aircraft fire.
I believe they were quite large aircraft, C130s maybe. If such aircraft did make these approaches, how far out from the runway threshold would of they established themselves for finals? or did they effectively fly the aircraft so as to roll out of the final spiral virtually on the threshold, at the correct speed and flap settings?
The only thing I can think of is something similar to the constant aspect approach used for PFLs, but I am curious to know how they did it.
Yours
Cumulus.
I believe they were quite large aircraft, C130s maybe. If such aircraft did make these approaches, how far out from the runway threshold would of they established themselves for finals? or did they effectively fly the aircraft so as to roll out of the final spiral virtually on the threshold, at the correct speed and flap settings?
The only thing I can think of is something similar to the constant aspect approach used for PFLs, but I am curious to know how they did it.
Yours
Cumulus.
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Considering some of the locations that the RAF (omongst others) are operating today, and the possibility of some of the locals not being to keen on the west trying to improve their lives, this type of approach may or may not still be in use (I don't know, just speculating). Therefore don't hold your breath awaiting an answer to your question.
MadMark!!!
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Mad_Mark - i believe that the RAF still occasionally use this approach - i have seen in done several times but only at airshows, the RAF used to use this as their party piece at RIAT at Fairford, they used to come in at approx 4-5000 ft over the threshold at Fairford then push the nose over till it was almost vertically going down to the runway and at about 2-300 ft above the runway slowly pull the nose back so as just as the nose came to the horizontal the main's would touch down on the runway.
All i can say is that it looked very very impressive, a friend of mine has just come out of the RAF where he was in ATC and said they used this type of approach at several places in Bosnia where they flew too.
Brgds
W.G.
All i can say is that it looked very very impressive, a friend of mine has just come out of the RAF where he was in ATC and said they used this type of approach at several places in Bosnia where they flew too.
Brgds
W.G.
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First one I ever did, no one told me it was going to happen.
I was down the back, but wasn’t on headset at the time.
Just sat down with a brew.
Next thing I know, the contents of my cup of coffee start floating past my eyes!
Followed by my feet passing my face – while my a@se was still sat on the seat!
Word of warning though, don’t have chewing gum in you’re mouth, ‘cos once the “G” kicks in, you can’t chew.
ML
I was down the back, but wasn’t on headset at the time.
Just sat down with a brew.
Next thing I know, the contents of my cup of coffee start floating past my eyes!
Followed by my feet passing my face – while my a@se was still sat on the seat!
Word of warning though, don’t have chewing gum in you’re mouth, ‘cos once the “G” kicks in, you can’t chew.
ML
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Wasn't some thought given to allowing commercial aircraft to do much steeper approaches, after lessons learned landing the Space Shuttle and the modified aircraft the used to train Shuttle pilots, I seem to remember seeing a documentry about this.
Dunno what advantage there is to doing this for commercial aircraft, although given the present set of circumstances mebbee there is.
Dunno what advantage there is to doing this for commercial aircraft, although given the present set of circumstances mebbee there is.
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Have you not been to any airshows cumulus!? Most tactical transport displays end with this approach - RAF, Belgian & Swedish Hercs, RAF & RN Jetstreams, German Transalls, Italian G222s (though not too good on the round out as per Fairford last year!), Canadian Buffalo, civvy demonstrator C27s,CN235s etc etc, even Dutch P3s and (from what I saw of the practice at Fairford) Kiwi B757s! Certainly the USAF C17 demo features a high RoD approach but not at such a steep angle.
All current transport drivers seem to use it as tv footage of recent war zones demonstrates. Given current world climate of shooting anything out of the sky I imagine airliners and similar will soon be practising the art!
All current transport drivers seem to use it as tv footage of recent war zones demonstrates. Given current world climate of shooting anything out of the sky I imagine airliners and similar will soon be practising the art!
Pprune Voyeur
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Hairyclam....Jesus, what a handle. No, I have never been to an Airshow, maybe I should start. Thank you very much for your answer though, I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done.
Your Obedient Servant
Cumulus
And then try it myself
Your Obedient Servant
Cumulus
And then try it myself
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cumulus
I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done.
Having experienced "tactical" landings in a "two-tone brown" Albert I can tell you it's a great way of discovering all those oranges and cheese banjos lost from previous "in flight" boxes.
I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done.
Having experienced "tactical" landings in a "two-tone brown" Albert I can tell you it's a great way of discovering all those oranges and cheese banjos lost from previous "in flight" boxes.
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I was fortunate enough to scrounge a ride with The US Navy Blue Angels Fat Albert during the air show at Reno Air Races . Their steep approach was great but probably not quite so good as The Swedish and UK ones.
I was photographing the show the next day and I got a great shot of the C-130 touching down, nosewheel first
I was photographing the show the next day and I got a great shot of the C-130 touching down, nosewheel first
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The display 'Khe Sahn' is not the same as the operational version, as it is straight-in and normally begins at 1000' to 1500' above the airfield (not 4-5000'!), and is designed for maximum crowd-appeal, not maximum operational effect. The operational version may be a spiral, or it may use alternative flight paths.....
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Khe Sanh -Cold Chisel's (Aussie Rock Group) best song:
Khe Sanh
Cold Chisel
(Cold Chisel)
I left my heart to the sappers round Khe Sanh
And my soul was sold with my cigarettes to the blackmarket man
I've had the Vietnam cold turkey
From the ocean to the Silver City
And it's only other vets could understand
About the long forgotten dockside guarantees
How there were no V-dayheroes in 1973
How we sailed into Sydney Harbour
Saw an old friend but couldn't kiss her
She was lined, and I was home to the lucky land
And she was like so many more from that time on
Their lives were all so empty, till they found their chosen one
And their legs were often open
But their minds were always closed
And their hearts were held in fast suburban chains
And the legal pads were yellow, hours long, paypacket lean
And the telex writers clattered where the gunships once had been
But the car parks made me jumpy
And I never stopped the dreams
Or the growing need for speed and novacaine
So I worked across the country end to end
Tried to find a place to settle down, where my mixed up life could mend
Held a job on an oil-rig
Flying choppers when I could
But the nightlife nearly drove me round the bend
And I've travelled round the world from year to year
And each one found me aimless, one more year the more for wear
And I've been back to South East Asia
But the answer sure ain't there
But I'm drifting north, to check things out again
You know the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
Only seven flying hours, and I'll be landing in Hong Kong
There ain't nothing like the kisses
From a jaded Chinese princess
I'm gonna hit some Hong Kong mattress all night long
Well the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
Yeah the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
And it's really got me worried
I'm goin' nowhere and I'm in a hurry
And the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
Khe Sanh
Cold Chisel
(Cold Chisel)
I left my heart to the sappers round Khe Sanh
And my soul was sold with my cigarettes to the blackmarket man
I've had the Vietnam cold turkey
From the ocean to the Silver City
And it's only other vets could understand
About the long forgotten dockside guarantees
How there were no V-dayheroes in 1973
How we sailed into Sydney Harbour
Saw an old friend but couldn't kiss her
She was lined, and I was home to the lucky land
And she was like so many more from that time on
Their lives were all so empty, till they found their chosen one
And their legs were often open
But their minds were always closed
And their hearts were held in fast suburban chains
And the legal pads were yellow, hours long, paypacket lean
And the telex writers clattered where the gunships once had been
But the car parks made me jumpy
And I never stopped the dreams
Or the growing need for speed and novacaine
So I worked across the country end to end
Tried to find a place to settle down, where my mixed up life could mend
Held a job on an oil-rig
Flying choppers when I could
But the nightlife nearly drove me round the bend
And I've travelled round the world from year to year
And each one found me aimless, one more year the more for wear
And I've been back to South East Asia
But the answer sure ain't there
But I'm drifting north, to check things out again
You know the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
Only seven flying hours, and I'll be landing in Hong Kong
There ain't nothing like the kisses
From a jaded Chinese princess
I'm gonna hit some Hong Kong mattress all night long
Well the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
Yeah the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
And it's really got me worried
I'm goin' nowhere and I'm in a hurry
And the last plane out of Sydney's almost gone
I believe that somewhere just over 10 years ago the Khe Sanh was re-dubbed the Sarajevo! I'm fairly certain with the current level of friendliness in and around Iraq it's now being talked about as the Baghdad! As far as I'm aware the idea is to stay outside small-arms and possibly shoulder-launched SAM range until the last possible moment and then drop like a stone onto the LZ. Any trucky types about to lend us their professional two-penneth?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The majority of flights into Khe Sanh were made by C-123ks, (only this model with two podded jet engines operated into the base), as the C-130 was adjudged too valuable to risk landing at the base as it couldn't make the runway turn-offs in either direction and had to back track. Except for 14 flights between the 25-28 of February, they were only used for air drops.
The C-123Ks flew a 4.5 degree glide path, starting their descent about 5kms from the field. All approaches were from the east because the unloading zone was at the west end of the runway and the aircraft couldn’t slow down enough on the other runway to make the turn-off and, as with the C-130s, back-tracking was too dangerous. (They couldn’t use reverse thrust on their prop engines, because this would automatically shut down the two jet engines, needed for the required steep climb on departure to clear enemy fire).
The aircraft landed and turned straight off into the unloading zone. The aircraft never stopped moving but performed a speed unloading procedure before re-entering the runway at the next turn-off and taking off back the way they came in.
The normal time between touchdown and take-off was 3 minutes, some crews managed it in under 1 minute.
The speed unloading procedure consisted of ground crew attaching a pair of 7ft runners to the ramp as it taxied past (there weren’t enough for each aircraft to carry their own), once in the off-load area the loadmaster released the chains on the pallets as the pilot added power to send the pallets down the ramp. Unloading averaged 30 seconds.
(The air drops, aided by ground bombing radar, were quite accurate. The C-130s had an average CEP of 110 yards over 496 sorties in all weather conditions, including IMC drops when the base was otherwise closed.)
Data extracted from “Air Power and the Fight for Khe Sahn”, US Office of Air Force History – 1973.
The C-123Ks flew a 4.5 degree glide path, starting their descent about 5kms from the field. All approaches were from the east because the unloading zone was at the west end of the runway and the aircraft couldn’t slow down enough on the other runway to make the turn-off and, as with the C-130s, back-tracking was too dangerous. (They couldn’t use reverse thrust on their prop engines, because this would automatically shut down the two jet engines, needed for the required steep climb on departure to clear enemy fire).
The aircraft landed and turned straight off into the unloading zone. The aircraft never stopped moving but performed a speed unloading procedure before re-entering the runway at the next turn-off and taking off back the way they came in.
The normal time between touchdown and take-off was 3 minutes, some crews managed it in under 1 minute.
The speed unloading procedure consisted of ground crew attaching a pair of 7ft runners to the ramp as it taxied past (there weren’t enough for each aircraft to carry their own), once in the off-load area the loadmaster released the chains on the pallets as the pilot added power to send the pallets down the ramp. Unloading averaged 30 seconds.
(The air drops, aided by ground bombing radar, were quite accurate. The C-130s had an average CEP of 110 yards over 496 sorties in all weather conditions, including IMC drops when the base was otherwise closed.)
Data extracted from “Air Power and the Fight for Khe Sahn”, US Office of Air Force History – 1973.
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KheSanh Descents - Try It!!!!
Cumulus
"I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done". "And then try it myself". !!!!!!!
These descents are not for the trying thereof. On a calm day you could end up with a touchdown too far into the runway. With any wind at all you will always have a very high rate of descent and a low nose attitude - get it wrong one way and you will arrive nosewheel first with high ROD, get it wrong the other way and you will flare too early, float and risk stalling in. On a strong wind day you may end up pointing into the undershoot and risk stretching the flare to the runway - always a disaster.
Some other comments on this thread are correct - the airshow demo is from about 1000 feet and looks spectacular but the real event starts much higher in order to stay away from the bad guys.
"I will try and get hold of some airshow videos, and see how it is done". "And then try it myself". !!!!!!!
These descents are not for the trying thereof. On a calm day you could end up with a touchdown too far into the runway. With any wind at all you will always have a very high rate of descent and a low nose attitude - get it wrong one way and you will arrive nosewheel first with high ROD, get it wrong the other way and you will flare too early, float and risk stalling in. On a strong wind day you may end up pointing into the undershoot and risk stretching the flare to the runway - always a disaster.
Some other comments on this thread are correct - the airshow demo is from about 1000 feet and looks spectacular but the real event starts much higher in order to stay away from the bad guys.
Pprune Voyeur
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I was only joking, I am not even almost bold. I get scared departing from straight and level. The reason I posted the original enquiry was pure curiosity, as I was thinking how much distance it would take a large aircraft to establish on finals etc.
I also use the anonymity of this forum to engage in empty posturing and braggadacio.
I also use the anonymity of this forum to engage in empty posturing and braggadacio.
Last edited by cumulus; 8th Dec 2003 at 02:42.