Safe seperation at Mach 2
Thread Starter
Safe seperation at Mach2
Since a +Mach 1 air to air film shoot is a unusual practice getting advice from a wide range of sources as quickly as possible is prudent.
There could be a seemingly minor point from a pilots perspective, that completely screws the shoot. No point finding that out weeks down the line.
We don't have weeks anyway.
The more perspectives the better.
Do you wear the Iron Maiden T shirt over the G suite
Mickjoebill
There could be a seemingly minor point from a pilots perspective, that completely screws the shoot. No point finding that out weeks down the line.
We don't have weeks anyway.
The more perspectives the better.
Do you wear the Iron Maiden T shirt over the G suite
Mickjoebill
mickjoebill,
You are being very candid about aircraft types. OK, I accept commercial sensitivity is possibly an issue for you (or is it being flown not quite in accordance with someone's rules?!) but if you want advice you are going to have to be up front!
One word of caution. If the 2 aircraft inadvertently get too close and you get shockwave interaction, there is a possibility that the aerodynamic moments produced on one or both of the aircraft, probably in roll but possibly in pitch or yaw, may exceed the contol authority available and thus the motion may not be controllable; a collision could result.
Good luck - I hope that you will post the pictures here after the event!
You are being very candid about aircraft types. OK, I accept commercial sensitivity is possibly an issue for you (or is it being flown not quite in accordance with someone's rules?!) but if you want advice you are going to have to be up front!
One word of caution. If the 2 aircraft inadvertently get too close and you get shockwave interaction, there is a possibility that the aerodynamic moments produced on one or both of the aircraft, probably in roll but possibly in pitch or yaw, may exceed the contol authority available and thus the motion may not be controllable; a collision could result.
Good luck - I hope that you will post the pictures here after the event!
From my limited supersonic time on the Gnat, Hunter, F4 (and bŁoody nearly so in a Vulcan......oops!), I'd say that unless you've got a very capable flight control system, the stick deflexion required and high inertia in all planes will make close formation quite difficult at high IMN.
Please explain what you're trying to photograph - and why on Earth you want to do it at M2?
Unless it's some form of high speed cruise missile or something weird from Area 51..
Oh No - Echelon's black Omegas outside. Wasn't me - the big boys did it....aargh latex gloves and vaseline.....!!
Please explain what you're trying to photograph - and why on Earth you want to do it at M2?
Unless it's some form of high speed cruise missile or something weird from Area 51..
Oh No - Echelon's black Omegas outside. Wasn't me - the big boys did it....aargh latex gloves and vaseline.....!!
Forgive me for saying this on what seems to be an important topic, but didnt that lovely damsel Katie from Blue Peter go supersonic in an Tornado F3 together with an F3 tv/chase aircraft, they seemed to be in tight formation as the wing commander was explaining how she was going faster than the earths rotation.
Tight formation refers to the aircraft !
Tight formation refers to the aircraft !
Thread Starter
Safe seperation at Mach2
Someone mentioned Concorde. Not me..
I've heard..
Incredibly, no motion picture footage can be found recording what Concorde was designed to do fly on the edge of stratosphere. None exists in any of the major archives including BAE, BA, ITN ect.
Most air to air shots, are by learjet at well below 40k.
Photo shoot by Tornado in the 1980s. Beautiful (still) picture, black sky above slight curve of the earth. This is the shot that sums up what concorde was all about!
So why not shoot it now? Using latest High definition video from back seat we can shoot 30 frames per second (5.9mb per frame 6 million pixel) images. Suitable for large screen digital presentation in aerospace museums ect.
A few messages have been in the last 2 weeks with RAF chaps with important sounding titles who seem jolly keen in looking into the matter
PAX on board for the last flight around BoB is an issue. (although web rumor indicates a formation! of concs was photographed with pax)
2000 feet horizontal seperation gives us the shot. 1000 feet better.
Apparently Conc needs to go above Mach1 at +55k for tech reasons.
The background is the understandable commercial interest to retire Conc without anymore fan fair.
Most insiders say it is highly unlikely Conc will fly again after 26th Nov.
Reports state that BA gave the PM Concorde for Ł225k for 6 hour return trip to NY. On that basis we would need Ł100k of flight time.
Looking for experiences from as many sources as possible to avoid a silly fckup or getting airborne and getting nothing.
There has only been 28 days warning of Concordes last flight.
Mickjoebill
I've heard..
Incredibly, no motion picture footage can be found recording what Concorde was designed to do fly on the edge of stratosphere. None exists in any of the major archives including BAE, BA, ITN ect.
Most air to air shots, are by learjet at well below 40k.
Photo shoot by Tornado in the 1980s. Beautiful (still) picture, black sky above slight curve of the earth. This is the shot that sums up what concorde was all about!
So why not shoot it now? Using latest High definition video from back seat we can shoot 30 frames per second (5.9mb per frame 6 million pixel) images. Suitable for large screen digital presentation in aerospace museums ect.
A few messages have been in the last 2 weeks with RAF chaps with important sounding titles who seem jolly keen in looking into the matter
PAX on board for the last flight around BoB is an issue. (although web rumor indicates a formation! of concs was photographed with pax)
2000 feet horizontal seperation gives us the shot. 1000 feet better.
Apparently Conc needs to go above Mach1 at +55k for tech reasons.
The background is the understandable commercial interest to retire Conc without anymore fan fair.
Most insiders say it is highly unlikely Conc will fly again after 26th Nov.
Reports state that BA gave the PM Concorde for Ł225k for 6 hour return trip to NY. On that basis we would need Ł100k of flight time.
Looking for experiences from as many sources as possible to avoid a silly fckup or getting airborne and getting nothing.
There has only been 28 days warning of Concordes last flight.
Mickjoebill
Thread Starter
Seperation at Mach 2
Thanks for all your replies.
3nm is as close as we are allowed to go, not much good for what we want.
Just one political and PR opportunity left. Don't hold your breath.
Mickjoebill
3nm is as close as we are allowed to go, not much good for what we want.
Just one political and PR opportunity left. Don't hold your breath.
Mickjoebill
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BOAC,
You are correct about shock wave effects on helos. After the cease-fire was announced in Gulf War 1, the Iraqis were allowed to fly choppers for "humanitarian reasons".
When it became apparent that they were being used to squash the rebellion in and around Basra, and when requests to fire were denied by AWACS, some of us discovered that a "high speed VID" was as effective as any ordnance...
Until "they" figured out what was going on and set the floor at 10,000 feet.
Whatever.
You are correct about shock wave effects on helos. After the cease-fire was announced in Gulf War 1, the Iraqis were allowed to fly choppers for "humanitarian reasons".
When it became apparent that they were being used to squash the rebellion in and around Basra, and when requests to fire were denied by AWACS, some of us discovered that a "high speed VID" was as effective as any ordnance...
Until "they" figured out what was going on and set the floor at 10,000 feet.
Whatever.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: North west UK
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"Air Force 1... shoot..... bomb-making..... Pakistan.... Al-Qaeda..... London...... State Visit..... Anarchy"
Have you ever heard of Echelon?? cos they know of you now
Oh ****** it... where can I buy a M82A1 Barrett bet that got bells ringing
Have you ever heard of Echelon?? cos they know of you now
Oh ****** it... where can I buy a M82A1 Barrett bet that got bells ringing
Thread Starter
Safe seperation
Best clearence we could get was 3nm.
Thanks for the responses, more bizzarre questions may follow so you haven't heard the last of me.... but after Dec 17th I will fall silent on the subject.
Mickjoebill
One thing for sure, here is only one pic of concorde at 55000 feet or so, taken in 1985 from a Tornado that managed 3 minutes at that height.
No motion pictures available of Concorde supersonic and high.
Next target Dec 17th 100- years of flight celebrations .
Ironic the celebrations are sponsored by BA and BAE non?
Dubious allies this time are The Sun, Daily Mirror and BBC.
Mickjoebill
Thanks for the responses, more bizzarre questions may follow so you haven't heard the last of me.... but after Dec 17th I will fall silent on the subject.
Mickjoebill
One thing for sure, here is only one pic of concorde at 55000 feet or so, taken in 1985 from a Tornado that managed 3 minutes at that height.
No motion pictures available of Concorde supersonic and high.
Next target Dec 17th 100- years of flight celebrations .
Ironic the celebrations are sponsored by BA and BAE non?
Dubious allies this time are The Sun, Daily Mirror and BBC.
Mickjoebill
Thread Starter
pull up
Just like the moon landing and George Ws visit to Bagdad, we'll do it in a studio
From the book of Silly rounded averages...
Wright Flyer to Concorde first flight average increase in max altitude 700 feet per year and average increase in max speed by 20 knots a year
Concorde to present day, average decrease in max altitude of 900 feet per year average decrease in max speed by 40 knots a year.
Pull up! Pull up! Pull up!
Mickjoebill
From the book of Silly rounded averages...
Wright Flyer to Concorde first flight average increase in max altitude 700 feet per year and average increase in max speed by 20 knots a year
Concorde to present day, average decrease in max altitude of 900 feet per year average decrease in max speed by 40 knots a year.
Pull up! Pull up! Pull up!
Mickjoebill
