Defence Cuts.........

[Unmissable]

Navbag

You say life outside is great but you can't help spending your free time on MILITARY aircrew forums. Perhaps you miss some aspects more than you would care to admit?

[Rev Caption]

Plus Ca Change

Another round of defence cuts. The sun goes up the world spins round we have a war the NHS squeaks, the government cuts defence. the sun goes down... hmmm, there seems to be a pattern emerging over the last 30 years. The only things that seem to be constant when we embark on yet another military excursion are:

New untried weapons
New untried, unpractised tactics
New SOPs
New rules
Redundancy notices
Increased long-term commitments
Followed by defence cuts

My major beef is that there are so many essential, but unfinished "initiatives" underway at the moment that we cannot possibly succeed. I wouldn't claim to know them all but there are:

Defence Training Review
UK Military Flying Training System
UK Maritme Command Training System
Armoured Vehicle Training System
Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft
Future Defence Supply Chain Initiative

....and no doubt loads more to boot. Funny how some of these have been running for years, but don't seem to be getting anywhere. And they call this "smart" procurement?

Plus Ca meme chose

Father forgive them......

Rev C

[bigley]

Before I start my drip at people like milops, I must state that I am not a flight ops person. The reason the flt ops branch is in such a state is because many members of the RAF, and I hasten to add they are not aircrew by and large, have not given the branch a chance. I have worked with excellent flt ops people who are trying their best to establish the branch's reputation. It has only been in existence for 5 years, give them a chance, after all the RAF was universally mocked when it was new.

[MilOps]

Bigley,

Don't misunderstand me, I feel overall that flight ops is a good thing, however IMHO it's inception was poorly thought through. When these people hit the streets nobody really knew what to do with them so they just ended up doing all the sh1te that aircrew couldn't be ar55ed to do.

Now I don't dispute that there are excellent examples out there, clearly there is good and bad in all things, but remember I work with them all the time, and I have to say that there are an awful lot more who really do try your patience, as a hugely experienced SNCO I despair at the stupidity and arrogance of many in their ranks. I have been doing this job for 22 years, have civilian OpsO's qualifications and consequently feel that I am commenting from a reasonabley strong standpoint.

FYI The latest batch of Ab Initio OpsOs that I have dealt with are excellent and feel pretty much the same way as I and my colleages. These guys joined wanting to do the job and are not these branch changees that jumped ship hoping to kickstart failing careers and who consequently brought all sorts of preconceptions with them, or the branch failures who ended up doing flt ops because that's all they were offered. Remember FOTS at one point was refereed to as 'Failed other training systems' not good as I am sure you will agree.

The Branch is 5 years old, has a further five to go before it's full integration and has a considerable amount of work to do. Some of the worst critics of Flt Ops as you say are not aircrew but other ground branches, and in particular air traffic who continue even now to muscle in on the act.

To go forward Flt Ops really must put as much space between it the air traffic twits, get a full time branch sponsor and stop being suckered into doing triv.

In a way I'm a great fan but despair at where it's currently going

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

MilOps, I am an Air Traffiker, I work on a daily basis with flt ops officers and I can assure you that ATC has no inclination to "muscle in on the act"; can you give a recent example of Air Traffic trying to do that? Indeed, if you talked to those in the know, you would realise that FOTS has recently taken on the responsibility for managing TTF. Accepted, FOTS is still part of CATCS but that is for 2 reasons:

a. The Flt Ops organisation has no staff support - I suggest you point that one at the sponsor.

b. There has to be some sort of command structure - we are military after all.

FYI, the latest FOTS cse that will graduate next Thursday has a number of re-treads. Indeed, it is my opinion (if I was at work I could give you precise statistics) that a very significant number of FOTS students are still re-treads (NCA feature high on the list and I suspect that this will increase). Just look at the officers on the instructional staff right now - one ex supplier and two ex SH loadies.

Can I suggest that, if you are really interested in the development of flt ops and the FOA/FOM specialisation, you actually speak to the people (including air traffic twits) who are desperately trying to make it work. PM me if you wish to get involved.

PS. Flt Ops isn't a Branch - it is a specialisation within the Ops Spt Branch.

[bigley]

Totally agree that the specialisation needs a sponsor, I know for a fact that snr Flt Ops Officers are pushing hard for it to happen. As for the retreads jumping ship fo the promise of quick promotion, a terrible generalisation I am afraid, again I know for a fact that the instructional staff of whom you write, are all volunteers for the specialisation for other reasons than a quick route to air rank. Furthemore, it is the staff of FOTS that are in the thick of attempting to establish Flt Ops as it should be established. So there!

On another point, I also totally agree that there have been ex aircrew, amongst others, who have been appalling at the job, but then is everybody in every branch good at their job?

[propulike]

If I could just change the subject of this thread for a moment -

Has anyone heard how these cuts (sorry, savings) are going to be implemented? Mates in the Ivory Towers have 'heard' rumours about losing 11,000 personnel! Forget about from where, just are they going to offer redundancy again

[Shackman]

Further to 'savings' or 'cuts' - local TV news up in this end of the country were reporting that the unions and local council were getting up a petition to save Stafford from closing. Apart from the MU side of things, an extremely useful refuel site and home to the good guys of TSW (or whatever it's called now). Again, nothing official but plenty of rumours!

[MilOps]

Sorry to drone on , but I feel WBS and Bigley at least deserve a response.

WBF.
Thanks for the info, I am more than conversant with events at TTF thanks. My accusations levied at ATC are more aimed at the day to day interference experienced and the idiot superior mentality displayed by the average controller to Ops staff. Also I am very interested in the development in the trade of FOA/FOM, and have never shyed away from voicing my thoughts and offering solutions to problems. The main reason for my decision to leave is due to this very point, nonexistant career progression and a succession of crap unstimulating employment opportunities that I am expected to 'enjoy'. All this courtesy of the Trade sponsor, and his team, all Air traffickers bar one, the solitary Ops rep who can't get a word in because he's only a WO. Get out a bit more and find out the feeling in the front line, you might get an unwelcome shock. Also, how long does CATCS expect to have control of Flight Ops? Again you have made my point for me, and you don't need to patronise me with comments about command structures, not having a commission doesn't mean that I'm unaware of how the organisation works. By embedding flight ops into the ATC world, you chiselers can maintain a very tight grip on what happens and where it goes. to it's detriment I believe.

Bigley.
Correct it was a horrible generalisation, unfortunately there is more than just a grain of truth in it. I accept that the FOTS staff are attempting to train people but I question the validity of the course content, many, many guys and girls who have completed the course have admitted that the course is whoefully inadequate and is missing vital aspects of Ops work. Breaking out ATOs is a good example. There are many more but frankly I can't be ar55ed anymore dealing with halfwits.

[Pontius Navigator]

The first batch of Flt Ops I came across were: 1. Non-assimilated nav, 2. ex-scribbly, 3. comissioned Air Eng, Good, 4. Commisioned AEOps, OK, 4. ex-scribbly - she thought she was OK.

Now a question. What exactly do they do? Stn Ops certainly but then what? Are they going to run the mission planning at HQ? Weapons Employment etc? Are they going to be the Blue side of Int?

In the US Navy Ops Officer and Sqn Eng are, I believe aircrew billets. At least they have a vested interest. Correct me on this please.

[Civil Servant]

Left in 97 after doing 22. Things were pretty bad then with civilianizing everything which left the boys doing AF every three months or so instead of every 18.

Went into airline ops and did very nicely thank you. Had a couple of bad experiences and am now in a very happy state with a job as secure as it gets these days (hence the handle!) an RAF pension, War Pension and current non contributary pension for when I retire.

Not earning as much as when in the mob but don't have the hassle. (The pensions help a lot)

In fact, life's pretty good these days. I never forget that it was my RAF experience that got me into civvy aviation and the management experience both in and out of the RAF that got me my present job, so no matter how bad it became before I left, I'll always be grateful for the experience.

Best of luck to you all.

[moony]

it's everyone else.

[HOODED]

Loosing 11,000 personell eh! Would'nt surprise me as the powers that be who did all this civilianaising years ago are about to get it all come home to roost. All these ex service ready trained men with a pension that took these jobs paying £10-12K are starting to retire, and places like Valley, Cranwell, Barkston etc are struggling to recruit. Contract prices will increase as pay will have to or they'll have to start training people with the resulting costs!
Saw a job advertised the other day for a qualified deep strip engine fitter at a certain front line unit and they were offering £12,700 for a 38 hr week, strange they haven't filled it yet though. A certain Civilian contractor can't get drivers to do refuleling as they're offering £14K and need HGV plus Hazchem. In real civvy street these guys normally get £20K plus as there's a shortage.
So 11,000 redundant/natural wastage may mean more ready trained guys to do these jobs most with a pension/pay off. Makes sense to me!
Thats if these guys wouldn't rather do a HGV or Plumming course and get paid £20K+ with their pension on top or work at McDonnalds for better than the contractors are offering!

[RubiC Cube]

Haven't heard the one about 11000 losses, but have been told that there is a freeze on FTRS and extensions of service to save money. Perhaps that's why they can't replace me with less than 2 months to go?

[MilOps]

Hmm, and the rumours just keep on getting better.

The latest one I heard today is that the Jag force will go much sooner than expected. Usual thing, some bloke heard it from someone else in the mess at lunch...........................

Anyone like to add to this?

[BEagle]

Non-sustainable policies to solve short-term economic problems never work. If you attract the first cut of ex-Mil people to augment their pensions with lower-paid jobs in newly-civilianised posts, then there won't be anyone to replace them when they ultimately retire. Hardly rocket science, is it?

If the civilian contractors can't recruit people with adequate experience, they'll have to train their own people. But where will they find the trainers or facilitate their newly-trained people to gain even adequate experience? And salaries will have to be competitive to attract employees of sufficient quality if disasters like the St Athan Tornado damage are going to be avoided in future.

I have a feeling that the whole thing is starting to bite - well, hardly surprising, is it? Too many rushed stop-gap 'management initiatives' with inadequate assessment of their long-term effects, perhaps?

[Chinese Vic]

'Blue' Side of Int

PN

If, by the 'Blue' side of Int you mean ATO/ACO breakout and plotting, CSAR procedures/words of the day, ISOPREPS etc etc then you'll find that the OS (Int) specialisation would be quite glad to have the Flt Ops guys and girls take it on; it would allow the Int Os to get on with the job of doing their best to ensure the aircrew come home in one piece!

I'm told the F3 guys are integrating the Flt Ops guys into their squadron mission planning/Int cells effectively. I've seen it work for the tanker fleet during Veritas - perhaps it's just the rest of us in the Muds that need to come up to date.....

I've worked with some absolutely top-notch Flt Ops guys, but as has been said, they need a more clearly defined role outside Stn Ops.

Cheers

CV

[DH98]

Getting back on track. Now that it has been reported over the last two weeks in a variety of journals that defence cuts in varying forms are on the cards, the Army being told that it is expected to wind up 10 regiments so that it can lose 9000 personnel for example, Typhoon order being cut to around 143 ac, Type 45 destroyers going from 12 to 10 and so on and so forth, what do we all reckon to personnel redundancies?

I for one can't see it, there should be enough natural wastage to easily account for any manpower cuts, but if there is an expected reduction overall of 11000 people they might not achieve that figure in the required timescale.

I'm just about to PVR, makes me wonder whether it might be worth waiting for the white paper to be published before I sign any paperwork. One thing I do know, if the MoD did have a redundancy programme, and my trade (FOM) was included, I suspect the the trade would pretty much cease to exist.

[Vage Rot]

Have to agree with Fin,

It's a great job that many youngsters would give anything to do.

Trouble is how much other cr@p comes with it and how few people are left to do the other cr@p! Not many 'rest' tours available away from Sqn but still close to the flying either!

Still, keeps the bills paid and the chicks rolling in!

[propulike]

Well, looks like the announcement is on the way. Not cuts you understand, just spending less and trying to do more with what's left.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3304867.stm

Will there ever be good news?