Defence Cuts.........
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In 3.5 decades in the RAF I enjoyed my life despite many defence cuts (we never had an expansion despite increases in the threat) and droves of disillusioned leavers - worst part was the dross stayed on and got promoted! Why did I stay? Simply because, on balance, my job was more enjoyable than any alternative I knew.
Not at all sure what my decision would be now if I was 20 or so years younger (no, I don't wish!) but if the crap outweighs the caviar then find another life just in case you pass this way only once.
Not at all sure what my decision would be now if I was 20 or so years younger (no, I don't wish!) but if the crap outweighs the caviar then find another life just in case you pass this way only once.
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RoboAlbert:
I'm not naive in the slightest, I know how unhappy the troops are, and have been for some years, speaking purely from a Navy standpoint, we have taken redundancies on the chin, watched most of our shore based jobs get "Civilianised" and still met all of the operational commitments one way or another. That was my whole point.. Yes conditions are naff, sure duties and parades and all the trivia that goes with the armed services are a right royal pain in the rear, budgets lousy, equipment ancient, need I go on? I could throw back free health care, a certain amount of security, and having seen some cracking nights out all over the world, I could say I even had a lot of fun along the way, but my whole point is this:
We did the job through choice, we did it despite all of the constraints placed on us, we did it better than the rest, and at the end of the day, when it was time to relax with beer and good company, it felt damn good.
Lets be honest, there are times when you are proud to be in the services, and its great, but you are entitled to moan, thats ok by me, I had plenty to gripe about too.
Just in case you are thinking "If you think the forces are so good, why did you leave?" Well I am sorry to admit I did it at the request of my now ex-wife, what does that tell you
I'm not naive in the slightest, I know how unhappy the troops are, and have been for some years, speaking purely from a Navy standpoint, we have taken redundancies on the chin, watched most of our shore based jobs get "Civilianised" and still met all of the operational commitments one way or another. That was my whole point.. Yes conditions are naff, sure duties and parades and all the trivia that goes with the armed services are a right royal pain in the rear, budgets lousy, equipment ancient, need I go on? I could throw back free health care, a certain amount of security, and having seen some cracking nights out all over the world, I could say I even had a lot of fun along the way, but my whole point is this:
We did the job through choice, we did it despite all of the constraints placed on us, we did it better than the rest, and at the end of the day, when it was time to relax with beer and good company, it felt damn good.
Lets be honest, there are times when you are proud to be in the services, and its great, but you are entitled to moan, thats ok by me, I had plenty to gripe about too.
Just in case you are thinking "If you think the forces are so good, why did you leave?" Well I am sorry to admit I did it at the request of my now ex-wife, what does that tell you
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MilOps,
Funny but today heard that the control side will be 30% under manned in a few months.
I have served my time as an Ops Officer, oh, about 9 years, but always as a shift cover not the poor sod who had to open up or close up every day. Still as aircrew it was often welcomed as a rest tour.
In my last job, as the Flt Ops were taking over I heard some interesting RT which indicated things were going to get interesting. The ops officer had heard but not understood and therefore taken no notice of the chatter.
Another time, quiet night NOTHING happening except for the jets getting ready to launch. Oh, one thing was happening. The temperatures were swopping with the DP rising. Then the wind kicked up a couple of knots. Didn't need a window to predict what was going to happen next.
I had the beers lined up before the stack call!
Funny but today heard that the control side will be 30% under manned in a few months.
I have served my time as an Ops Officer, oh, about 9 years, but always as a shift cover not the poor sod who had to open up or close up every day. Still as aircrew it was often welcomed as a rest tour.
In my last job, as the Flt Ops were taking over I heard some interesting RT which indicated things were going to get interesting. The ops officer had heard but not understood and therefore taken no notice of the chatter.
Another time, quiet night NOTHING happening except for the jets getting ready to launch. Oh, one thing was happening. The temperatures were swopping with the DP rising. Then the wind kicked up a couple of knots. Didn't need a window to predict what was going to happen next.
I had the beers lined up before the stack call!
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Perhasp they should have worked harder at school...
It never ceases to amaze me how bitter and twisted people can become in the course of their Service careers. I suspect that all of us have periods of doubt and set-back, but there are always options - trade/branch change and PVR being two of them! Inevitiably it seems that the first people to get blamed are the 'leadership' but, perhaps, the mirror should be used in the first instance.
Being bitter proves nothing - it does not endear one to others; indeed it will single one out as a bit 'odd' and in common with all organisations and companies, it is important for the face to fit.
I have gone through 2 massive career shifts since I was commissioned in the mid-1980s and have ended up with an intrinsically interesting (and well-paid) job, a great family and an enviable lifestyle. This was all due to conscious decisions that I made, realising that the system - whether it be Innsworth or a private organisation - relies ultimately on the individual to come up with the goods. There are inequities in 'the system'; it is one thing to high-light them - but another to let them eat away at your life.
Would be interested to hear about the Flt Ops problesm alluded to in earlier messages.
Above all else, to thyself be true.
I have gone through 2 massive career shifts since I was commissioned in the mid-1980s and have ended up with an intrinsically interesting (and well-paid) job, a great family and an enviable lifestyle. This was all due to conscious decisions that I made, realising that the system - whether it be Innsworth or a private organisation - relies ultimately on the individual to come up with the goods. There are inequities in 'the system'; it is one thing to high-light them - but another to let them eat away at your life.
Would be interested to hear about the Flt Ops problesm alluded to in earlier messages.
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PN.
That's exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to Flt ops. My early experiencies of Ops as a lad entailed having old and bold grounded aircrew, usually on their last tour or type expired, ex Vulcan mates etc. What these people didn't know wasn't worth knowing but the knowledge that they would quite happily pass on to young snots like me was priceless. They're all gone now. Flt Ops curently has problems of it's own that it needs to countenance, they know this and are looking at how to sort it. I have had it from a very reliable scource that CT at St Mawgan last year for example, did the branch no favours at all.
EC
I'm not bitter as I feel you clearly think I and others are, just frustrated. I love being in the RAF and am as much of a cabbage as you'll ever get, the day I leave will be without doubt the saddest day of my life, and to be honest for all my posturing and bluster I really don't want to leave. But when the job satisfaction, sense of purpose, quality of life etc has been eroded to the extent that it has then it must be time to go, hasn't it?
That's exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to Flt ops. My early experiencies of Ops as a lad entailed having old and bold grounded aircrew, usually on their last tour or type expired, ex Vulcan mates etc. What these people didn't know wasn't worth knowing but the knowledge that they would quite happily pass on to young snots like me was priceless. They're all gone now. Flt Ops curently has problems of it's own that it needs to countenance, they know this and are looking at how to sort it. I have had it from a very reliable scource that CT at St Mawgan last year for example, did the branch no favours at all.
EC
I'm not bitter as I feel you clearly think I and others are, just frustrated. I love being in the RAF and am as much of a cabbage as you'll ever get, the day I leave will be without doubt the saddest day of my life, and to be honest for all my posturing and bluster I really don't want to leave. But when the job satisfaction, sense of purpose, quality of life etc has been eroded to the extent that it has then it must be time to go, hasn't it?
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MilOps, I left in 1990 for the same reasons as you give and I've never looked back. Best decision I ever made and its worked out fine for me. I was a controller in the RAF and the CAA paid me more as a trainee than the RAF paid me as a Sgt. And when I joined in 1976 the Green Godesses were on the streets covering for firemens' strikes, Jim Callaghan's government were decimating the forces with defence cuts, aircraft sat in hangars for months because there were no spares, and the accommodation blocks were literally falling to pieces (the one I lived in had builder's jacks holding up the ceilings). So looks like nothing has really ever changed and if I had to blame anyone for the state the forces find themselves still in 27 years later, I'd lay it firmly at the door of the Ministry of Defence, which is without doubt staffed by the biggest bunch of muppets on the planet. It certainly is no reflection on the people who serve in the forces, who manage to run the show despite the inept tinkering with budgets and projects by their so-called leaders.
So you pays your money and you makes your choice, and I chose to leave. I had a great time, but I'm also glad I left which makes me very lucky, really. Good luck, MilOps, hope it works out for you, but if you managed to stay in the RAF that long, you'll do fine at whatever you chose next.
So you pays your money and you makes your choice, and I chose to leave. I had a great time, but I'm also glad I left which makes me very lucky, really. Good luck, MilOps, hope it works out for you, but if you managed to stay in the RAF that long, you'll do fine at whatever you chose next.
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The Grass is a hell of a lot greener on the civvy side! I left military flying last year and everything is a hell of a lot better from where I'm standing flying commercially.
And most importantly I don't work for the Bliar and his evil government any more!!
And most importantly I don't work for the Bliar and his evil government any more!!
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In answer to the question of what keeps us aircrew in, I think it's the chance to do a job you only dream of as a child, to work with superb quality, motivated and talented people, to rely on them, and be relied upon and to triumph in spite of cutbacks, etc.
And when the triv really hurts, one low level sortie through some challenging terrain, fighting through an air threat, hitting a target and dropping some bombs isn't half a good tonic.
As for the bitterness, I think a lot of us would do well to remember just how much we wanted this job when we applied, how many failed to get it, and how many would gnaw off their right arm to do it right now. Sure it has its frustrations, life's like that, but it's still a hell of a way of life any I'd recommend it to anyone.
And when the triv really hurts, one low level sortie through some challenging terrain, fighting through an air threat, hitting a target and dropping some bombs isn't half a good tonic.
As for the bitterness, I think a lot of us would do well to remember just how much we wanted this job when we applied, how many failed to get it, and how many would gnaw off their right arm to do it right now. Sure it has its frustrations, life's like that, but it's still a hell of a way of life any I'd recommend it to anyone.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MilOps,
I'm at 42 years and counting. My first mentor in Ops was a grounded Sgt-nav off Wellingtons. The the 5th aircraft type I flew in was an Anson. The one that was built just before the one that Gregory Peck had in Purple Plain.
Aside from the Sgt-nav the other Ops officer was off Neptunes.
What goes round goes round but it takes years of experience to build up.
This really should go in a different thread but here goes:
Flt Ops girly given a 2 for service writing complains to hairy Sqn Ldr Ops (about 20 years my junior), "why have you given me only a 2 for SW? I'm an ex-scribbly."
"Perhaps that's why you're an ex-scribbly."
I'm at 42 years and counting. My first mentor in Ops was a grounded Sgt-nav off Wellingtons. The the 5th aircraft type I flew in was an Anson. The one that was built just before the one that Gregory Peck had in Purple Plain.
Aside from the Sgt-nav the other Ops officer was off Neptunes.
What goes round goes round but it takes years of experience to build up.
This really should go in a different thread but here goes:
Flt Ops girly given a 2 for service writing complains to hairy Sqn Ldr Ops (about 20 years my junior), "why have you given me only a 2 for SW? I'm an ex-scribbly."
"Perhaps that's why you're an ex-scribbly."
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PN
Hah, spot on again. My first tour as an LAC had me working for a Flt Lt Nav who had been jiffed into becoming an air traffiker, his first tour was Wellingtons! I take it your Anson must have been a Mk 20 or 21 then?
Anyway we digress, you're absolutely right this should be on another thread but hey ho it's here now. One of my main gripes with Flt Ops is the lack of knowledge, if you tried to get a job in civil aviation at the same level that the RAF recruits it's OpsOs you would be told to bu99er off and go away to get some experience.
I like to be controversial, so here goes. All Flt Ops Officers should be recruited exclusively from within the Service from appropriate Trades/Branches, by that I mean NCA, FOM, ATC, ASM, etc. and at SNCO level.
There we go, Moggie formation large flock of pigeons starboard 10 angels 15.
Hah, spot on again. My first tour as an LAC had me working for a Flt Lt Nav who had been jiffed into becoming an air traffiker, his first tour was Wellingtons! I take it your Anson must have been a Mk 20 or 21 then?
Anyway we digress, you're absolutely right this should be on another thread but hey ho it's here now. One of my main gripes with Flt Ops is the lack of knowledge, if you tried to get a job in civil aviation at the same level that the RAF recruits it's OpsOs you would be told to bu99er off and go away to get some experience.
I like to be controversial, so here goes. All Flt Ops Officers should be recruited exclusively from within the Service from appropriate Trades/Branches, by that I mean NCA, FOM, ATC, ASM, etc. and at SNCO level.
There we go, Moggie formation large flock of pigeons starboard 10 angels 15.
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What an interesting thread. Just goes to show that nothing changes!
Two to three years ago I can remember getting involved in another disillusioned aircrew, shall I jump, shan't I debate on this very web site! I enjoyed my RAF job, who doesn't like LL in a GR4!! But was getting disillusioned, like a lot of others.
Well, I'm one of those who had the b###s to jump and haven't looked back! Yes, it was a very big decision but enough was enough, for all the same reasons being churned out here. Yes, I do miss the flying a wee bit if I was honest, but the positives far outweigh the negatives.
Life is what you make it, I now have a sound job and new career earning considerably more thankyou (although I wasn't at first!) and respected for what I do, I have a life with my family, stability, no nasty surprises from Bliar and a much wider perspective on what I want, when, where and how.....and I don't winge about what if....Remember, guys, it's your life and if you don't like it, change it! There are jobs out there, but open your scan and your expectations to improve your quality of life
More than happy to discuss!
Two to three years ago I can remember getting involved in another disillusioned aircrew, shall I jump, shan't I debate on this very web site! I enjoyed my RAF job, who doesn't like LL in a GR4!! But was getting disillusioned, like a lot of others.
Well, I'm one of those who had the b###s to jump and haven't looked back! Yes, it was a very big decision but enough was enough, for all the same reasons being churned out here. Yes, I do miss the flying a wee bit if I was honest, but the positives far outweigh the negatives.
Life is what you make it, I now have a sound job and new career earning considerably more thankyou (although I wasn't at first!) and respected for what I do, I have a life with my family, stability, no nasty surprises from Bliar and a much wider perspective on what I want, when, where and how.....and I don't winge about what if....Remember, guys, it's your life and if you don't like it, change it! There are jobs out there, but open your scan and your expectations to improve your quality of life
More than happy to discuss!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MilOps, you missed another important category, knockers.
NCO aircrew such as AEOps and Air Eng. We had one of each. The AEOp knew his stuff and was extremely laid back (sorry Jon) but the Air Eng was something else again.
He was a walking on water variety pushing for Sqn Ldr in his first tour. He rated 10/10.
They got in with a commissioning carrot to make up for loss of flying pay.
NCO aircrew such as AEOps and Air Eng. We had one of each. The AEOp knew his stuff and was extremely laid back (sorry Jon) but the Air Eng was something else again.
He was a walking on water variety pushing for Sqn Ldr in his first tour. He rated 10/10.
They got in with a commissioning carrot to make up for loss of flying pay.
PN
I really must agree.
Knockers are great.
They put a smile on your face in the morning, give you something to watch when you're bored and can keep you afloat in a storm when everyone else is going under.
Fortunately there are a couple of good ones in the Ops setup at our place too. Depends on the shift though...
I really must agree.
Knockers are great.
They put a smile on your face in the morning, give you something to watch when you're bored and can keep you afloat in a storm when everyone else is going under.
Fortunately there are a couple of good ones in the Ops setup at our place too. Depends on the shift though...
Thread Starter
Personally I prefer the 'knockers' one used to see in the Sun Calendar!
Little did Sam Fox ever know how much she did for Cold War thawing when her piccie was held up in the window of our Vickers Funbus for the Ivans in their Bears to see! Much grinning and friendly gesticulating at an A3 sized topless Sam against a black background - initially from the mate in the rear turret and then from all the other Ivans in their little leather hats from every available window of their aeroplane!
Happy times.....
Little did Sam Fox ever know how much she did for Cold War thawing when her piccie was held up in the window of our Vickers Funbus for the Ivans in their Bears to see! Much grinning and friendly gesticulating at an A3 sized topless Sam against a black background - initially from the mate in the rear turret and then from all the other Ivans in their little leather hats from every available window of their aeroplane!
Happy times.....
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PN
I did include Kockers in my line up, re NCA. That's what they're called now. However I do wonder what rear crew have to offer, after all they only muck about with radios, radar, airframes and loads. Not much relevence there then!?
I did include Kockers in my line up, re NCA. That's what they're called now. However I do wonder what rear crew have to offer, after all they only muck about with radios, radar, airframes and loads. Not much relevence there then!?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MilOps,
The rear crew or SLF do pick up quite a bit as they follow the antics of the hired help up front. We had one pearler in a Shack. The Nav, every 30 minutes duly got a fix and updated the ETA for Keflavik. After one fix he duly called the updated ETA which was about 35 minutes later than the previous one, ie we had lost 35 minutes in 30!
You could hear the WRONG echo up the aircraft without intercom.
Propulike,
I had one, in the command sense you understand, at Ascension Island. She had her hair up in a bun and could not lie on her back. She was also uncomfortable lying on her front on the campbed, so I used to get a couple of hours zeds each night shift.
1984 that was.
The rear crew or SLF do pick up quite a bit as they follow the antics of the hired help up front. We had one pearler in a Shack. The Nav, every 30 minutes duly got a fix and updated the ETA for Keflavik. After one fix he duly called the updated ETA which was about 35 minutes later than the previous one, ie we had lost 35 minutes in 30!
You could hear the WRONG echo up the aircraft without intercom.
Propulike,
I had one, in the command sense you understand, at Ascension Island. She had her hair up in a bun and could not lie on her back. She was also uncomfortable lying on her front on the campbed, so I used to get a couple of hours zeds each night shift.
1984 that was.