C-130J broken engines?
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C-130J broken engines?
Posted on Jane's:
'The UK Royal Air Force's (RAF's) fleet of 25 nearly new C-130J transport aircraft has been hit by a chronic engine problem that is forcing the service to migrate engines from aircraft to aircraft in order to maintain mission readiness rates.'
I'd heard some stories about the engine management system but is this also something to do with a 'spares' issue as well?
'The UK Royal Air Force's (RAF's) fleet of 25 nearly new C-130J transport aircraft has been hit by a chronic engine problem that is forcing the service to migrate engines from aircraft to aircraft in order to maintain mission readiness rates.'
I'd heard some stories about the engine management system but is this also something to do with a 'spares' issue as well?
Spares
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Gossip from the crewroom/workface/'orses mouth...
...is that they are also very short of engine stands to put the chronically challenged engines on.
Nowadays a highly paid consultant and computer will work out how many engines stands you will need by using a formula involving
Number of aircraft on fleet
Projected flying hours per month
Hours between servicing
Life of component parts
and so on
Trouble with these plans is that they're all bollocks
Heroic endeavours by the groundcrew though. An engine change on a C130 J could involve three aircraft. One aircraft to place the broken engine on, another to steal a good engine off, and your original aircraft.
Progress
I have no axe to grind with the C130 J but I'm happy to remain on the C130 Klassic...now being quietly and modestly refered to as
'THE LONG TERM FLEET'
...is that they are also very short of engine stands to put the chronically challenged engines on.
Nowadays a highly paid consultant and computer will work out how many engines stands you will need by using a formula involving
Number of aircraft on fleet
Projected flying hours per month
Hours between servicing
Life of component parts
and so on
Trouble with these plans is that they're all bollocks
Heroic endeavours by the groundcrew though. An engine change on a C130 J could involve three aircraft. One aircraft to place the broken engine on, another to steal a good engine off, and your original aircraft.
Progress
I have no axe to grind with the C130 J but I'm happy to remain on the C130 Klassic...now being quietly and modestly refered to as
'THE LONG TERM FLEET'
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It's not and engine management system fault or even a lack in spares, or even the fact that the formular is b0110cks.
The simple fact its that we are burning out turbines far quicker than expected. There is a mod to fix the turbines it is just taking time to fit to 25 x 4 plus spares!
whilst this mod programme is underway there are proceedures in place to keep the ac flying to the rates we have all become accustomed to - which is still higher than the planned rate and higher than the k (not that this is starting another k/j issue as it is not, both ac are very capable and both do a great job)
T
The simple fact its that we are burning out turbines far quicker than expected. There is a mod to fix the turbines it is just taking time to fit to 25 x 4 plus spares!
whilst this mod programme is underway there are proceedures in place to keep the ac flying to the rates we have all become accustomed to - which is still higher than the planned rate and higher than the k (not that this is starting another k/j issue as it is not, both ac are very capable and both do a great job)
T
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As an outsider looking in at the K/J issue, it does seem as tho the RAF has not done the best possible job in the procurement of the J.
As an ex-Nimrod type i can put up with the BAE f***ups that we have all become accustomed to, but I thought that the rest of the RAF was better placed than that. ......Perhaps not !!!!!!
As an ex-Nimrod type i can put up with the BAE f***ups that we have all become accustomed to, but I thought that the rest of the RAF was better placed than that. ......Perhaps not !!!!!!
Champagne anyone...?
Round we go.........
I’m not entirely sure that all the blame for the “problems” of the J can be placed at the door of the RAF. Many of the teething troubles that the J experienced were down to build quality and software issues.
The RAF did miss a trick when the actual design specs of the aircraft were being laid down. I suspect that the majority of the design/specification/whatever team from the RAF were pilots and they spent the money available on the toys they wanted. As far as I’m concerned, as a driver airframes, it’s marvellous and I’ve got lots of toys to play with. If the J were a Fisher Price Pilot Activity Centre then this would be a splendid piece of procurement. Sadly it’s a transport aircraft and as such the 1990s J should have a better and more capable freight bay than it’s older 1960s sibling. A major trick was missed by not having a built in winch, better freight handling kit/locks and a better floor.
This is not to say that the J is any less capable, day to day, than the K – far from it - only that the ALMs and the Movers job on the J should be a lot easier given 30+ years of supposed progress.
My understanding of the actual contractual side of the J was that the contracts were, in a business sense, well written. The RAF didn’t get shafted when Lockheed delayed and delayed on initial deliveries and penalty clauses written in saw the RAF/MoD get paid compensation for said delays. Unfortunately, the elephant that is Lockheed has a long memory. I believe I’m right in saying that as the DA for the J any mods and purchases have to go through Lockheed. Therefore when we want to mod the aircraft at all Lockheed will happily charge ridiculous fees to claw back the money they lost in fines. Consequently it is therefore very difficult to get things like DAS, armour, external tanks etc etc.
The current engines issue is, I believe, down to the supplier of the aircraft rather than those of the engine. The engines were delivered as spec'd as I understand it. The situation is indeed a bit daft and needs rectifying soonest. I sincerely hope that there is no feet dragging over sorting out the required mods (stronger turbine blades).
Day to day the J is an extremely capable aircraft that has tremendous potential. Our clearances for doing “interesting” things (hush my mouth for suggesting that route flying isn’t interesting) are coming through slowly but surely. Our friends at QinetiQ do make everything vastly more drawn out and expensive so it all takes much longer for everything to come on stream. The OEU are doing a lot of good stuff with the J. The first student TAC courses are going through now with a finish date early next year. These courses would have finished already were it not for the shenanigans earlier this year out east.
The capabilities of the J mean that both our regular “operational” dets are filled by Js. The J in Afghanistan regularly operates off natural surfaces and high altitude airfields without problems. The Js in Basrah operate year round into high threat environments and have proven the capability of their DAS fit on several occasions. Yes, the K now has a more capable DAS fit coming online now although it’s interesting to note that the nice new toy at the back of the K was actually destined for and funded by the J…. We have to wait a little longer for ours now. Why? You tell me.
Yes, the K has received lots of other new toys recently. This was again I suspect due to a) funding and b) a mental inertia by those on the planning and procuring side who don’t have the ability to see beyond the way they’ve always done it the last 30 years. The Lockheed issue rears it’s head again here though as any desire by RAF plc to mod the J must go through them. A new fit of lots of shiny toys to the J would have been extortionately expensive through Lockheed and when Messrs Heath and Robinson ltd (Suppliers of Lashed Up Goods To HM Forces) offered to retrofit the new kit to the K in exchange for a copy of Razzle and a slab of Carling Export (or the monetary equivalent thereof) the RAF, quite rightly, bit their hand off. The K is now pretty well fitted out for joining in the next great air battle and good luck to them. Oh, and you’re more than welcome to the Basrah det too – not sure you’d enjoy the summer there though
There are a surprising amount of people further up the food chain who would happily see the J wither on the vine and die. Why? Again, you tell me. Short sightedness, bitterness at the loss of particular trade on the flight deck, who knows? It is a shame because, like I said, the C130J is an aircraft with a lot of potential.
Notwithstanding the recent ab-initios we’ve begun to receive I can safely say that everyone on the J has flown the K. I believe I’m also fairly safe when I say that nobody on the K has flown the J. All the pilots I know (myself included) think the J is a great aircraft to operate and would never go back to the K. Make of that what you will.
Some ALMs are disappointed at the speed at which the TAC stuff is coming on the line and have expressed the view that they would sometimes rather they had remained on the K doing TAC work. I must admit that in some cases I can see their point; we have some very keen, capable and enthusiastic Loadies that should be being given TAC courses and soon. I don’t want to get into politics so I’ll leave it at that
I know the J GEs are working very hard at the moment and indeed have been all year. They are undermanned and are unhappy at the way they are managed compared to the K GEs. But again, the ones I’ve spoken to have said they would not want to go back to the K (feel free to correct me here though!)
This isn’t a PR puff for the J model. Most people that know me know that I would be hard pushed to give less of a toss about most things. Why then spend my Sunday morning typing out this nonsense then? A lot of people read Pprune and are, it would seem, happy to form opinions based on what they read on here. Much of what is written on here, about the J certainly, isn’t particularly objective nor is it particularly informed.
Admittedly this is a rumour network and such half truths will appear on here and I think the great K/J debate will continue in it’s own uninformed way on Pprune for a long time to come. I would hope however that outsiders can see the above as informed opinion from someone with no axe to grind. I would happily welcome any informed comment from K operators but really I don’t see any point. It’s not a competition as far as I’m aware…or have I missed something?
The RAF did miss a trick when the actual design specs of the aircraft were being laid down. I suspect that the majority of the design/specification/whatever team from the RAF were pilots and they spent the money available on the toys they wanted. As far as I’m concerned, as a driver airframes, it’s marvellous and I’ve got lots of toys to play with. If the J were a Fisher Price Pilot Activity Centre then this would be a splendid piece of procurement. Sadly it’s a transport aircraft and as such the 1990s J should have a better and more capable freight bay than it’s older 1960s sibling. A major trick was missed by not having a built in winch, better freight handling kit/locks and a better floor.
This is not to say that the J is any less capable, day to day, than the K – far from it - only that the ALMs and the Movers job on the J should be a lot easier given 30+ years of supposed progress.
My understanding of the actual contractual side of the J was that the contracts were, in a business sense, well written. The RAF didn’t get shafted when Lockheed delayed and delayed on initial deliveries and penalty clauses written in saw the RAF/MoD get paid compensation for said delays. Unfortunately, the elephant that is Lockheed has a long memory. I believe I’m right in saying that as the DA for the J any mods and purchases have to go through Lockheed. Therefore when we want to mod the aircraft at all Lockheed will happily charge ridiculous fees to claw back the money they lost in fines. Consequently it is therefore very difficult to get things like DAS, armour, external tanks etc etc.
The current engines issue is, I believe, down to the supplier of the aircraft rather than those of the engine. The engines were delivered as spec'd as I understand it. The situation is indeed a bit daft and needs rectifying soonest. I sincerely hope that there is no feet dragging over sorting out the required mods (stronger turbine blades).
Day to day the J is an extremely capable aircraft that has tremendous potential. Our clearances for doing “interesting” things (hush my mouth for suggesting that route flying isn’t interesting) are coming through slowly but surely. Our friends at QinetiQ do make everything vastly more drawn out and expensive so it all takes much longer for everything to come on stream. The OEU are doing a lot of good stuff with the J. The first student TAC courses are going through now with a finish date early next year. These courses would have finished already were it not for the shenanigans earlier this year out east.
The capabilities of the J mean that both our regular “operational” dets are filled by Js. The J in Afghanistan regularly operates off natural surfaces and high altitude airfields without problems. The Js in Basrah operate year round into high threat environments and have proven the capability of their DAS fit on several occasions. Yes, the K now has a more capable DAS fit coming online now although it’s interesting to note that the nice new toy at the back of the K was actually destined for and funded by the J…. We have to wait a little longer for ours now. Why? You tell me.
Yes, the K has received lots of other new toys recently. This was again I suspect due to a) funding and b) a mental inertia by those on the planning and procuring side who don’t have the ability to see beyond the way they’ve always done it the last 30 years. The Lockheed issue rears it’s head again here though as any desire by RAF plc to mod the J must go through them. A new fit of lots of shiny toys to the J would have been extortionately expensive through Lockheed and when Messrs Heath and Robinson ltd (Suppliers of Lashed Up Goods To HM Forces) offered to retrofit the new kit to the K in exchange for a copy of Razzle and a slab of Carling Export (or the monetary equivalent thereof) the RAF, quite rightly, bit their hand off. The K is now pretty well fitted out for joining in the next great air battle and good luck to them. Oh, and you’re more than welcome to the Basrah det too – not sure you’d enjoy the summer there though
There are a surprising amount of people further up the food chain who would happily see the J wither on the vine and die. Why? Again, you tell me. Short sightedness, bitterness at the loss of particular trade on the flight deck, who knows? It is a shame because, like I said, the C130J is an aircraft with a lot of potential.
Notwithstanding the recent ab-initios we’ve begun to receive I can safely say that everyone on the J has flown the K. I believe I’m also fairly safe when I say that nobody on the K has flown the J. All the pilots I know (myself included) think the J is a great aircraft to operate and would never go back to the K. Make of that what you will.
Some ALMs are disappointed at the speed at which the TAC stuff is coming on the line and have expressed the view that they would sometimes rather they had remained on the K doing TAC work. I must admit that in some cases I can see their point; we have some very keen, capable and enthusiastic Loadies that should be being given TAC courses and soon. I don’t want to get into politics so I’ll leave it at that
I know the J GEs are working very hard at the moment and indeed have been all year. They are undermanned and are unhappy at the way they are managed compared to the K GEs. But again, the ones I’ve spoken to have said they would not want to go back to the K (feel free to correct me here though!)
This isn’t a PR puff for the J model. Most people that know me know that I would be hard pushed to give less of a toss about most things. Why then spend my Sunday morning typing out this nonsense then? A lot of people read Pprune and are, it would seem, happy to form opinions based on what they read on here. Much of what is written on here, about the J certainly, isn’t particularly objective nor is it particularly informed.
Admittedly this is a rumour network and such half truths will appear on here and I think the great K/J debate will continue in it’s own uninformed way on Pprune for a long time to come. I would hope however that outsiders can see the above as informed opinion from someone with no axe to grind. I would happily welcome any informed comment from K operators but really I don’t see any point. It’s not a competition as far as I’m aware…or have I missed something?
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SS
Common-sense is a rare thing in the present-day RAF and especially at that secret airbase in Wilts. However, you seem to be speaking some - you are definitely not promotion material, I presume. If you are, you won't get far - they beat it out of you with ACRs, ICSC and paperwork!
I coudn't agree more about your sentiments - both ac are apparently on the same side and should be 'working together to get the job done' - as a famous builder once said! But I think anyone reading this site would have been hard pressed to believe this J/k thing has been anything less than a particularly puerile willy-waving contest, not helped by higher level political shenanigans!
I rarely comment on PP but have done in the past to plead with those that insist on waving their tackle in public to desist when 'our boys and girls' backsides are being shot at. Banter is fine but some of the stuff I have seen has been unpleasant, personal and not worthy of anyone I know at the aforementioned base - all very sad really! Especially, since both ac types and their crews have been in harm's way more times than i care to think about over the last 3 and a half years. I am so relieved that we 've been sooooooooo lucky not to have lost an ac or 2 (along with the valuable pax and crew) since the beginning of The War Against Terrorism! However, at last now most ac are getting the protection they deserve - IMHO FDA and DIRCM/flares should be expanded to all AT/AAR/EW ac - like the USAF are trying to do!
However, there are only sufficient UK funds to cover some ac - sadly. You are right to point out that QQ and Locktight Inc have the J over a barrel - which is probably why money has gone, for now, to the Klassic - that doesn't make the J a bad platform nor the K any better or worse. Still, the K crews have more people to party when they return home unscathed!
Best of Luck.
flipster
ps I have actually spoken to pilots who WOULD consider a swop back to the K but then again, my willy is very big.... (not)!!!!!
Common-sense is a rare thing in the present-day RAF and especially at that secret airbase in Wilts. However, you seem to be speaking some - you are definitely not promotion material, I presume. If you are, you won't get far - they beat it out of you with ACRs, ICSC and paperwork!
I coudn't agree more about your sentiments - both ac are apparently on the same side and should be 'working together to get the job done' - as a famous builder once said! But I think anyone reading this site would have been hard pressed to believe this J/k thing has been anything less than a particularly puerile willy-waving contest, not helped by higher level political shenanigans!
I rarely comment on PP but have done in the past to plead with those that insist on waving their tackle in public to desist when 'our boys and girls' backsides are being shot at. Banter is fine but some of the stuff I have seen has been unpleasant, personal and not worthy of anyone I know at the aforementioned base - all very sad really! Especially, since both ac types and their crews have been in harm's way more times than i care to think about over the last 3 and a half years. I am so relieved that we 've been sooooooooo lucky not to have lost an ac or 2 (along with the valuable pax and crew) since the beginning of The War Against Terrorism! However, at last now most ac are getting the protection they deserve - IMHO FDA and DIRCM/flares should be expanded to all AT/AAR/EW ac - like the USAF are trying to do!
However, there are only sufficient UK funds to cover some ac - sadly. You are right to point out that QQ and Locktight Inc have the J over a barrel - which is probably why money has gone, for now, to the Klassic - that doesn't make the J a bad platform nor the K any better or worse. Still, the K crews have more people to party when they return home unscathed!
Best of Luck.
flipster
ps I have actually spoken to pilots who WOULD consider a swop back to the K but then again, my willy is very big.... (not)!!!!!
Champagne anyone...?
flipster
I suspect your PS may be correct actually and that my assessment of pilot affection towards the J may have been a little unclear!
People on the sqns are disappointed at the speed at which the Tac courses and clearances are progressing and I know that there are many folk, myself included, who would sell their souls to do some more “interesting” flying. My little LL experience on the K consisted of smashing round the UKLFS every now and then, pulling the wings off round the FI and lobbing harness packs at penguins. Nowhere near enough to make me an expert by any stretch but enough to make me know what I’m missing. I suspect those J guys who were properly TS qualified on the K may indeed be gnawing at the HUD in frustration now. I imagine people who’ve expressed a “desire” to return to the K have done so out a wish to do some interesting tac flying rather than a desire to return to the K as a platform. Or perhaps I’m speaking out of turn….
As I understand it I think myself and most of my current contemporaries on the J have missed the boat on Tac Cses given course dates and tour review dates. This is very disappointing for all of us but it’s life I guess; 13 years in the RAF, 2.5 operational tours and the rest training, holding and generally being dicked about has left me with no illusions about the job!
That said, I still stand by what I said in my previous post with a slight amendment for clarity; the majority of the J pilots I know would not wish to go back to the K
PS. At least all this glass cockpit time will set me up nicely for flying aluminium people tubes around the world in a few years time
I suspect your PS may be correct actually and that my assessment of pilot affection towards the J may have been a little unclear!
People on the sqns are disappointed at the speed at which the Tac courses and clearances are progressing and I know that there are many folk, myself included, who would sell their souls to do some more “interesting” flying. My little LL experience on the K consisted of smashing round the UKLFS every now and then, pulling the wings off round the FI and lobbing harness packs at penguins. Nowhere near enough to make me an expert by any stretch but enough to make me know what I’m missing. I suspect those J guys who were properly TS qualified on the K may indeed be gnawing at the HUD in frustration now. I imagine people who’ve expressed a “desire” to return to the K have done so out a wish to do some interesting tac flying rather than a desire to return to the K as a platform. Or perhaps I’m speaking out of turn….
As I understand it I think myself and most of my current contemporaries on the J have missed the boat on Tac Cses given course dates and tour review dates. This is very disappointing for all of us but it’s life I guess; 13 years in the RAF, 2.5 operational tours and the rest training, holding and generally being dicked about has left me with no illusions about the job!
That said, I still stand by what I said in my previous post with a slight amendment for clarity; the majority of the J pilots I know would not wish to go back to the K
PS. At least all this glass cockpit time will set me up nicely for flying aluminium people tubes around the world in a few years time
After flying on the J for the first time of friday I must confess to how impressed I was. There seems to be a massive surge of power instantly when needed. It seems to be a lot less bumpy when flying in the weeds too. And best of all there is a large square window on the para door, with a seat to gaze out of for the 3 hours of valley bashing. Luckily for us we get to work with both the K /J and I now look forward to flying on either. Both sets of j/k crew are very professional and I think that all senseless J/K slagging should end here. As the TAC side comes on line then so the attributes of the J shall shine thru.
As Stop Start has said, it seems a shame that the greater powers are happy to see the J fall by the wayside. Must be Nav's as SS said!!
I cant quite see that the J will be able to perform all the tasks of the K tho as the floor is so different. MSP's and boat systems need to be radically changed and I'm not so sure that the cash is in the system for it. Prehaps we should have used the Skydel floor to give the J greater flex. in terms of TAC roles. As has been said before it's just such a shame that there wasn't more input in the design phase from the LM/Movers/AD types.
As Stop Start has said, it seems a shame that the greater powers are happy to see the J fall by the wayside. Must be Nav's as SS said!!
I cant quite see that the J will be able to perform all the tasks of the K tho as the floor is so different. MSP's and boat systems need to be radically changed and I'm not so sure that the cash is in the system for it. Prehaps we should have used the Skydel floor to give the J greater flex. in terms of TAC roles. As has been said before it's just such a shame that there wasn't more input in the design phase from the LM/Movers/AD types.
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SS
Quite right - there is only so much straight and level one can do even if it is to far-off places - especially if others can hoot 'n' roar around at LL. While I have had my fun, the hootin'-and-a-roarin' doesn't make up for:
a. Lack of quality time with the family/pastime/hobby etc.
b. The continued lack of proper trg in a real ac (i.e. live Air Drop, EW, evasion and NVG LL for all) - if that were ever possible.
The last is going to remain unlikely as DTMA will always steal our trg ac for the route-i-toot stuff.
I suspect that the best we will ever achieve is 'Super Fluffy' stuff for the sharp-end and NVG assist for the rest of us with minimal EW input. There will probably be only enough ac (J or K) on the trg prog to keep small pools of peeps qual'd in the slightly more esoteric stuff.
Add the rediculous manning levels we are being forced to work with and it all adds up to damn-all fun, bl00dy hard working regimes, and plenty of niff-naff! I suspect that the sinking ship will keep on sinking - it breaks my heart!
Quite right - there is only so much straight and level one can do even if it is to far-off places - especially if others can hoot 'n' roar around at LL. While I have had my fun, the hootin'-and-a-roarin' doesn't make up for:
a. Lack of quality time with the family/pastime/hobby etc.
b. The continued lack of proper trg in a real ac (i.e. live Air Drop, EW, evasion and NVG LL for all) - if that were ever possible.
The last is going to remain unlikely as DTMA will always steal our trg ac for the route-i-toot stuff.
I suspect that the best we will ever achieve is 'Super Fluffy' stuff for the sharp-end and NVG assist for the rest of us with minimal EW input. There will probably be only enough ac (J or K) on the trg prog to keep small pools of peeps qual'd in the slightly more esoteric stuff.
Add the rediculous manning levels we are being forced to work with and it all adds up to damn-all fun, bl00dy hard working regimes, and plenty of niff-naff! I suspect that the sinking ship will keep on sinking - it breaks my heart!
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gw,
well put old boy. fine ac is the j but why oh why dont we just adopt the us aerial delivery techniques and the square window wouldnt be needed by your fine self!
keep the klassic for the good stuff and let the j do all the other stuff (not a fuse for further debate!)
rigger!!
lead, follow or get out of the f**cking way!
well put old boy. fine ac is the j but why oh why dont we just adopt the us aerial delivery techniques and the square window wouldnt be needed by your fine self!
keep the klassic for the good stuff and let the j do all the other stuff (not a fuse for further debate!)
rigger!!
lead, follow or get out of the f**cking way!
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StopStart,
Good posts. The J cargo compartment is essentially an E model, because that is what we asked for. the RAF thought they could superimpose the Beverley/K skydel role equipment and Blackburn winch in it (for gods sake why only knows). This turned out to be impractible. We decided not to get the advanced cargo handling system on offer, as well as external tanks, DAS etc. That said, there is nothing wrong with the basic US C130 floor, being easier to role change than the K. It would be fantastic if we were allowed to use US airdrop equipment, but QinetiQ would not clear it to the required standard. Take CDS for example, a perfectly acceptable (in military terms) resupply airdrop system`in use with several airforces since the 1960's, is not considered safe enough by todays standards. Therefore, they have to re-invent the wheel before the J can use it.
The main problem is that our middle/upper management do not understand modern software driven ac. Wait till they try to change anything on the A400, the J will seem a bargain.
A senior RAAF officer, and a J enthusiast, recently said that modern ac do not save money, just offer more capability. The J and A400 will be expensive to tweek (software) but in the end provide a quantum leap in capability. That assumes that their airships allow the capability to be exploited.
Good posts. The J cargo compartment is essentially an E model, because that is what we asked for. the RAF thought they could superimpose the Beverley/K skydel role equipment and Blackburn winch in it (for gods sake why only knows). This turned out to be impractible. We decided not to get the advanced cargo handling system on offer, as well as external tanks, DAS etc. That said, there is nothing wrong with the basic US C130 floor, being easier to role change than the K. It would be fantastic if we were allowed to use US airdrop equipment, but QinetiQ would not clear it to the required standard. Take CDS for example, a perfectly acceptable (in military terms) resupply airdrop system`in use with several airforces since the 1960's, is not considered safe enough by todays standards. Therefore, they have to re-invent the wheel before the J can use it.
The main problem is that our middle/upper management do not understand modern software driven ac. Wait till they try to change anything on the A400, the J will seem a bargain.
A senior RAAF officer, and a J enthusiast, recently said that modern ac do not save money, just offer more capability. The J and A400 will be expensive to tweek (software) but in the end provide a quantum leap in capability. That assumes that their airships allow the capability to be exploited.
Drifter
How well put! It is EXTREMELY frustrating to know that the aircraft I fly is capable of so much more than it is permitted to do. The 'useful' clearances have almost all been issued retrospectively, once the Captain and Crew at the time have done the job that HAS to be done and forced the issue. The aircraft is now roughly 4years old - that's over 10% of its service life (guessed at 35years like the current ones - not a number designed to start a b!tch-fest). The delays are mind-boggling, anyone in charge without an axe to grind would WANT an asset to do as much as possible - surely?
How well put! It is EXTREMELY frustrating to know that the aircraft I fly is capable of so much more than it is permitted to do. The 'useful' clearances have almost all been issued retrospectively, once the Captain and Crew at the time have done the job that HAS to be done and forced the issue. The aircraft is now roughly 4years old - that's over 10% of its service life (guessed at 35years like the current ones - not a number designed to start a b!tch-fest). The delays are mind-boggling, anyone in charge without an axe to grind would WANT an asset to do as much as possible - surely?
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From my own limited involvement with the J, back in '96-'98, and as an interested spectator of the procurement programme before that, I can confirm much of what SS and Drifter say. The original requirement was 'to keep the C130 freight bay in service until 20XX'. A number of options were considered, most of which involved refurbishing the C130K (which would probably have included a glass, two-man flight deck). Lockheed's proposal to sell us the J was essentially a speculative offer to achieve the ASR with a new aeroplane even though one hadn't specifically been sought.
The J that Lockheed offered was a far different animal to the one they'd proposed a few years earlier (anyone remember the HTTB?), which promised a much greater leap in avionic and aerodynamic technology than was finally included. They also kicked and screamed throughout the project definition and pre-production stages against including anything that might increase their costs. For example, many minor structural life-enhancing mods which had been developed by the RAF and other users over the years were not included in the baseline J specification - originally!
The floor was a cost-saving that was driven by MoD against much user advice, and even against Lockheed's advice - they wanted to produce only one type of floor for the aircraft, and weren't pleased that the RAF chose the low-tech option. However, in my opinion the biggest problem (bearing in mind the ASR) was that Lockheed insisted that the MTOW would remain at the same value as the K's had been on release to service. In the intervening years, driven mainly by the Falklands logistics demands, the K's limit had been increased. This suited all the customers - more freight - even if the engineers (and some of the pilots) weren't too impressed. This was approved by Marshall's, the DA, although I believe Lockheed were against it even then. This meant that the J was always going to struggle in seamlessly replacing the K as a freight-hauling tool - all the load plans from the K would not work for the J. I suspect that may have been the original cause of much of the resistance to the J from those outside the Lyneham pilots who, as SS says, love it to bits!
I'm sure that most of these problems have now been resolved and, as always, the RAF has made the best of a somewhat botched procurement. I hope the J goes on to a long and successful future, though some of the rumours posted here suggest that it may not. Incidentally, the introduction of the K was just as prolonged (especially the TS clearances) and problemmatic as the J has been, so this is nothing new!
I'm no longer privy to what goes on at Rompers Green, other than what I read here (and occasionally glean from SS at Pprune bashes - while he can still talk), so I shall continue to watch with interest!
The J that Lockheed offered was a far different animal to the one they'd proposed a few years earlier (anyone remember the HTTB?), which promised a much greater leap in avionic and aerodynamic technology than was finally included. They also kicked and screamed throughout the project definition and pre-production stages against including anything that might increase their costs. For example, many minor structural life-enhancing mods which had been developed by the RAF and other users over the years were not included in the baseline J specification - originally!
The floor was a cost-saving that was driven by MoD against much user advice, and even against Lockheed's advice - they wanted to produce only one type of floor for the aircraft, and weren't pleased that the RAF chose the low-tech option. However, in my opinion the biggest problem (bearing in mind the ASR) was that Lockheed insisted that the MTOW would remain at the same value as the K's had been on release to service. In the intervening years, driven mainly by the Falklands logistics demands, the K's limit had been increased. This suited all the customers - more freight - even if the engineers (and some of the pilots) weren't too impressed. This was approved by Marshall's, the DA, although I believe Lockheed were against it even then. This meant that the J was always going to struggle in seamlessly replacing the K as a freight-hauling tool - all the load plans from the K would not work for the J. I suspect that may have been the original cause of much of the resistance to the J from those outside the Lyneham pilots who, as SS says, love it to bits!
I'm sure that most of these problems have now been resolved and, as always, the RAF has made the best of a somewhat botched procurement. I hope the J goes on to a long and successful future, though some of the rumours posted here suggest that it may not. Incidentally, the introduction of the K was just as prolonged (especially the TS clearances) and problemmatic as the J has been, so this is nothing new!
I'm no longer privy to what goes on at Rompers Green, other than what I read here (and occasionally glean from SS at Pprune bashes - while he can still talk), so I shall continue to watch with interest!
Join Date: May 2003
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Gentlemen, and Ladies, It seems that we may be overlooking a few particular facts. The c130J was sold to the RAF as an aircraft that could easily compliment and finally replace the K. It has proven itself more than once already, including it's superbly successful time in Afghanistan and the Gulf. During the former, it was able to carry larger quantities, quickly into a threat environment, and return. Due to a great part played by the maintainers, it also had a 99% task completion rate.
I know well the problems that are currently holding back a very capable aircraft, and hope that a fix will be found soon by Mr Lockheed and his staff. It is worthy to note however, that it is still able to carry more, higher and faster than its counterpart, although, maybe not as far at present. Spares problems are a contract problem, and maybe someone on high would like to get his teeth round that one.
I promise you, I will shortly get of my Hobbyhorse, and return to drinking G + T's in the sun, however, I would just like to say that most of the bad press is still coming out of the K fraternity. I hear it every day, and it will take a long time to go away I think. The K is here to stay for maybe another 10 years (Wiltshire airbase closing and all), and the J will be it's replacement, hopefully not alongside that 400 rubbish. Why can people not accept this, and let the two great aircraft work together as one team. After all, we are all doing the same job, helping the planet to be a better place to live, allbeit maybe with a few less people on the J.
I know well the problems that are currently holding back a very capable aircraft, and hope that a fix will be found soon by Mr Lockheed and his staff. It is worthy to note however, that it is still able to carry more, higher and faster than its counterpart, although, maybe not as far at present. Spares problems are a contract problem, and maybe someone on high would like to get his teeth round that one.
I promise you, I will shortly get of my Hobbyhorse, and return to drinking G + T's in the sun, however, I would just like to say that most of the bad press is still coming out of the K fraternity. I hear it every day, and it will take a long time to go away I think. The K is here to stay for maybe another 10 years (Wiltshire airbase closing and all), and the J will be it's replacement, hopefully not alongside that 400 rubbish. Why can people not accept this, and let the two great aircraft work together as one team. After all, we are all doing the same job, helping the planet to be a better place to live, allbeit maybe with a few less people on the J.
Epi
I'm becoming forgetful in my old age - please remind me about these greater payloads and quicker flight times into Afghanistan - obviously they happened, just can't quite remember when ...
I'm becoming forgetful in my old age - please remind me about these greater payloads and quicker flight times into Afghanistan - obviously they happened, just can't quite remember when ...
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Epi,
Stop argueing and work together?? haha... next you'll want people to hold hands and dance in a circle
Suppose though it's too much to ask that people who haven't even been on an aircraft stop trying to act like experts on the topic
Anyway .. I'm on leave out west so ... back to gardening!
PAF
Stop argueing and work together??
haha... next you'll want people to hold hands and dance in a circle Suppose though it's too much to ask that people who haven't even been on an aircraft stop trying to act like experts on the topic
Anyway .. I'm on leave out west so ... back to gardening!
PAF
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PAF,
"Suppose though it's too much to ask that people who haven't even been on an aircraft stop trying to act like experts on the topic"
Should have offered that advice to the poster above mate you as i suspect he fit's that bracket perfectly
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
"Suppose though it's too much to ask that people who haven't even been on an aircraft stop trying to act like experts on the topic"
Should have offered that advice to the poster above mate you as i suspect he fit's that bracket perfectly
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Always Broken in Wilts,
Yes I thought as much..
we can only hope.. but I think it's a pipe dream..
Some of the rumours would be funny if they didn't get passed around as fact so easily!
PAF
Yes I thought as much..
we can only hope.. but I think it's a pipe dream..
Some of the rumours would be funny if they didn't get passed around as fact so easily!
PAF