Canada may pull troops from Dubai base
 

These scumbags just won't quit. It's how business is done in the Middle East I guess. Here's hoping the Canadians don't cave.

Boy, the Emirati's don't like the Canuks for some reason!

4 days to go until they switch of RIM Blackberry service, and now this.

halas

Too late Jerk, you need a big time out.

I would love to fly to Vancouver and Calgary but I hope Canada wont give in to these hypocrites, EK shouldnt be allowed to fly to any civilized country until they adhere to normal duty time regulations.

It is encouraging to see Canada, which has far too long been politically docile, standing its ground. Before raising the stakes, the Emiratis may do well to study Canada's reaction to Aeroflot in 2003 (hint: read page 238-240 of Robert Milton's book "Straight from the Top") after the Russians suddenly denied overflight of their airspace on Air Canada's Toronto- New Delhi route and demanded unlimited 5th Freedom Rights as a precondition for continued overflight of Russian airspace.

Besides, headstrong people from Toronto will butt heads with with the headstrong from Dubai, because Torontonians are also totally convinced that their city is the center of the universe. Can't use logic as a tool to convince people who "believe" something of otherwise. :ok:

Yeah...I think it was a joke.

It's just a US/Canada thing like the Aus/NZ thing.

It may have been a joke because we are a smaller token highly trained force. It is understood that some people are sensitive during these days of sacrifice and pain of losing our troops and friends. I have served in the forces for 25 years in the reserves, I can tell you, not too many people are joking at the moment..

Its just out.. Canadians have 27 days to vacate the base in Dubai.

We expected it because of the way things where done. As I posted before, Canada is a sovereign nation, and will not be forced in to any agreement by holding any resource as ransom. They made a decision that is in the best interest of our troops and country. As for emirates wanting more slots, that is very political and I doubt that Canada would be willing to give anything more at this time.

Say what you must but Dubai isn't the only place in the world that can be used as a staging area..

Thats my two cents worth.


Cheers,

I guess the ball is back in thier court now , will the UAE tell EK and EY to stop YYZ would like to see that.

Glad to see Canada not giving in the greed of the UAE

Whoever was doing the "negotiations" for the UAE really s&*t the bed. They obviously didn't do their homework on Steven Harper. Any chance of additional slots to Canada have just vanished for the forseeable future.

While Canadians may have benefitted from better connections and cheaper fares I am supportive of a Canadian government that would not be bullied or seduced. Its a small price to pay to share the burden with those couragous few who are serving so honorably and have, been unfortunately been dragged into this commercial/geopolitical mess.

Canada does not need UAE money, UAE oil, or their style of doing business. I would also suggest some humility as the trips to the USA could give a whole new meaning to "The Long Way Round" without the use of Canadian airspace.
It might also be time for Air Canada to do a little soul searching and figure out how to compete globally as they have been given this reprieve. Canadians won't tolerate expensive subpar service forever...

FcU:

I completely agree with your post mate! It is about time someone stand up to these guys and and make them aware that their bullying tactics and culture is not at all the best way forward. Emirates and the UAE may continue to behave like school yard bullies on their own turf but the rest of the world is starting to sit up and take notice...Good for Canada! Very Good for Canada!... These guys need a good knock up the head more often so they can grow up and stop acting like a bunch of spoiled idiots, but I do not think they are capable of doing that. The give me more...I want, I want because I am special has bitten them in the a$$ this time. I really wish that the energy expended bickering at each other which you see here on this forum, would be channelled towards telling the media and the rest of the world how these guys really operate. Expose them to the max, no need to be shy about it. Why protect them and try to save them from embarrassment? This lot would not think twice about screwing you... in fact they already are! And particularly the style of management at EK... They have told the world that they are the world's most profitable airline. Perhaps one government has finally realized why and how they have become the world's most profitable - exploiting your employees always help a great deal in this case am sure...

It is tragically funny how so many of my fellow Canadian's on this forum act and sound just like the minority of belligerent people in this part of the world that they so self righteously despise. Remember the likes of all of you, that you came to this part of the world of your own free will.

Criticism of the management staff and certain company practices at EK is understandable, but the utter self loathing you all have for your company is a shameful embarrassment to Canadians like me who have our disagreements with some company practices and those who enforce them, but who understand that in the end, that it is through the good will of the people in the UAE that I am allowed to feed my children and give my family a future here at EK.

If you hate the UAE my fellow Canadians THEN LEAVE, believe me there are many more Canadians with much more class who would take your place without a moments hesitation... is that tough for you to swallow..grow up, I can't believe with some of your infantile attitudes that you are allowed at the controls of large commercial aircraft.

How pathetic that a comic barb from the greatest contributors to Canadian peace and economic prosperity, our good neighbors to the south, is treated in such an confrontational and tasteless manner. But this also explains your attitudes about EK. Funny thing is that most of you even fly a Boeing! you who have posted pictures of our men and women in uniform should be ashamed, how many other countries have made sacrifices in Afghanistan?? You know the answer, it's been many from Europe to Asia, and even many more from Australia.

The US "misadventure" as you call it was fully supported by Mr. Harper and company, so maybe you should send your posted pictures to him instead, if you want make so clear, what we all know. The US is our ally, but our mission in Afghanistan was undertaken by the will of Prime minister Steven Harper and government. Not all Canadians agree with the mission, but we all love and support our men and women and uniform and grieve for their loss, if you don't believe it that's your problem.

THE FACT IS

It is Steven Harper and government who are to blame for the putrid state of relations between the UAE and Canada. Collectively they have have shown the diplomatic savy of a ten year old. Supported by the corporate lobby of Air Canada, they have ironically dug their heads in the sand, and lost a diplomatic opportunity to serve Canadians both at home and abroad once again.

27000 Canadians living in the UAE!!, a military base that offered a secure and beneficial staging base for our troops!!, and this MORONIC government fails to secure it's continuity by putting the commercial interests of AIR CANDA and the STAR ALLIANCE first!!!!! well done fools!!! but I guess the likes of many of you who post so regularly agree with the sound logic:rolleyes: that with only 27000 Canadians living in the UAE one daily flight is enough. Of course this is what that most impartial and wise body Transport (Air) Canada thinks. Of course who cares that almost 30 million Canadians don't work for Air Canada and actually have something to gain economically from letting the UAE have better access to Canada's airline market. I guess we have more to gain from our relationship to HOLLAND who gets unfettered access and flights to all Canada!!, and we get access to Amsterdam!!! well done HARPER AND COMPANY YOU ARE UTTER FOOLS.

Oh and by the way our fellow Canadians at home will be paying much higher rent for newer basing options in Europe or Central Asia which means more tax, wise business planning from a savy pro business government.:rolleyes:

Finally fatbus, nothinholdem and company would take your broken record and LEAVE...YES PLEASE LEAVE, (strangely enough I think I've heard this time and time again on this forum) go elsewhere or better yet go home and be happy for god sake! you'll live longer and have better sex. LOL.

That's enough time wasted on the professional whining forum...

lol

peace out.
:O
six

PS fatbus, nothinholdem, ek haters et al, don't bother posting a reply, your hateful ignorance is already well noted.

and now an educational interlude...cue the music..

gulfnews : UAE-Canada trade ties could take beating

peace out

six

The only "educational" thing about a Gulfnews article is...the obvious lesson that it is the official press/propaganda tool of the UAE rulers :ugh:

Monopoly Practices
 

nolimitholdem .. Thank you for the thread.

I have been always saying that Emirates count on monopoly in doing business and the fact here talks for itself. What a Canadian military base has to do with a pure commercial issue? Nothing.

It is nonetheless good to see that Canadian authorities did not give up to this sort of cheap blackmail and dictation.

wow...brilliant Schibulsky , the old "if my side says it, it's true, but if your side says it, it's government sponsored propaganda"... you should be in Harper's cabinet! :rolleyes:

oh wait! and now Shazar weighs in? but alas he has made clear his contempt for EK in so many other posts, that who cares about his pat on the back for Canadian resolve in face of blackmail and dictation of the dark UAE. (funny that it is the vile EK monopoly who writes about so much, that keep his country's commercial aerospace industry afloat)

Shazar, you no doubt know so much about the negotiations that went on that you can confidently speak about the blackmail and dictation that Canada resisted, please do enlighten me? what was said? where is your proof? somehow I think I will wait forever for that one, while your country counts the mound of cash it's made from the evil EK monopoly.

wowwww...quick six7driver, wipe some of the spittle off corners of your mouth, your eyes are starting to roll back into their sockets!! lol

I don't have to like, respect, or agree with the entity that employs me, or the country that I live in. I give them precisely the same amount of those qualities as I receive from them. It's that "free will" you mention. I'm not sure the concept is quite so familiar in the Middle East though.

Don't speak to me of the "good will of the people of the UAE", it's a complete lie. We work here for their benefit and the fact that it may benefit us as well as a side effect is completely irrelevant. The millisecond expat workers are not needed, they will be discarded. It is a mindset that still believes slavery is acceptable, dressed up just enough with money and perks to lure the bare minimum they need to make the money they crave. The true fool is one who actually believes the platitudes about being a "guest". If you really believe that EK employs you because they care about you feeding your children (silly rhetoric) I feel pity for you.

I'll just skip the bizarre rant about the Americans and the Canadian troops, I think you embarrassed yourself enough already. Suffice to say that I highly doubt you are privy to the costs of military basings hither or yon...but even if it cost more to base elsewhere, do you not realize that sometimes there is a cost to standing up to blackmailers? Does that principle really require explanation? You've been too long in the sand, you've gone native and think that that's actually a legitimate way of doing business. Diplomatic savvy? You mean like using a military base as leverage for airline rights? Bang-up job, AMBASSADOR!

You toss numbers around. Are those 27,000 Canadians in the Gulf really struggling to get back to Canada? Is the DXB-YYZ flight the only option? Give me a break. And 30 million Canadians in Canada would gain financially from Emirates having increased access? Of course in a general sense the public always gains when there is more choice, but I think you're overstating the benefits to the Canadian public. As it stands there are MULTIPLE options for travel between the two countries. Just because it isn't as cheap, convenient or frequent as YOU would like, you throw the toys out of the pram.

You trot out the tired out "if you don't like it, leave"...as if liking something is the only factor in being somewhere. How do you know I'm not happy? I'm ecstatic that that at least some of my fellow Canadians are getting to leave this place, I'll be even happier when Canada pulls out of Afghanistan, and I look forward to the day when the gear sucks up for the last time outta here.

All in all, life is good and getting better. Don't let your hatred of Canada and Air Canada consume you. (Were you a RP on the '67 perchance?)

no limits...relax and go home dude you're paranoid delusional, what difference does it make where I come from? you gonna hunt me down LOL:}. you end your rant about me saying "don't let your hatred of Canada consume you"??? what??????? I love Canada so have another drink...:mad:

You should have read the bottom of my post, your hatred for all things Emirates is noted.

What a weird thing cause you if you work for Emirates that means you hate yourself? lol now go bully someone else on some other forum.

peace out

six

How about rebutting some of the points about the numbers you toss around so casually?

I can do ad hominem attacks as well but it's kind of boring. I will say, I find it very telling that you equate one's employer with oneself. I don't. No wonder you defend Emirates so vigourously when you tie your identity to it. I don't hate all things Emirates. I'd prefer they stayed the hell out of Canada. *shrug*

To get things back on point, any more word on whether the troops will be bullied (sorry, firmly told) into being expelled (sorry, asked politely to leave)?

:}

Excuse me... Moderator!
 

Flamer Alert- Thread Creep!
Flamer Alert- Thread Creep!
Can we get back on to the subject?
Thanks.
T

six7driver...........pulling out of the UAE may well be to Cdn military's advantage for one reason--if the country they are based in uses that base as 'trading chip' or negotiating tool then the military is better off somewhere that is more stable!!!!

If the situation in Afghanistan were different at the moment this situation may well put soldiers in danger. Better to move somewhere were they can't be blackmailed, somewhere stable.

Could you imagine if Canada told they US they were pulling their commitment because of the softwood lumber dispute!!???

Secondly---I got that the one poster was poking fun about the Cdn military. But go back and read his post--it certainly could be misconstrued by some since it was NOT clear that it was tongue in cheek. Also look at how quickly those 'enraged' posts STOPPED when it was realized that it was a joke.

Finally, your argument that EK should be permitted more flights to serve 27,000 Cdn's in the UAE is ridiculous. Canada's air policy has to do with the 35 million people that live in Canada as well and with the service they need.

This situation is so much more complicated then it appears to be. It is not about protecting AC though I know AC is lobbying hard for their own goals. The cry that consumers would be better served if EK was allowed in shows only one side of a complicated arguement.

Yes, people in YVR and YYC would now be able to fly via DXB to many destinations. But how many of those destinations could they reach in 2 stops via alternative means? More IMPORTANTLY--how many flights and thus choice to the consumer would be LOST if EK was allowed in??

Many of the Euro direct flights from cities like YVR, YYC etc rely on through traffic to cities beyond the initial European destination. In most cases it ranges from between 10% of 15% of the pax travelling onwards beyond Europe. That direct YYC-Euro flight would be uneconomical without those 10-15% of pax and would be cancelled. So now you have a situation were passengers in those cities would LOSE the option for a direct flight to many Euro destinations if that traffic was siphoned off by EK. Along with that lose of choice would be a potential for lose of jobs.

This is only one example and this is why Transport Canada and the Cdn Gov't will not allow unfettered access. Don't forget this is a CONSERVATIVE government!!!!! The big business, free trade, party. I don't believe that Air Canada has the sway or connections to keep foreign airlines out. This is a decision made by the gov't at the highest levels.

So the cry that 'free competition' should be allowed etc etc is disingenuous. There are so many facets to the arguement and it is so deep that what I find frustrating is when people, like you, mix into the argument some cry and hue about some posters being anti UAE etc.

I like the UAE, I like living here as does my family. I like working for EK. I wish we did fly to YVR and YYC and had additional flights to YYZ. But I can't berate the Cdn gov't for their decisions.

Canada has open skies and bilaterals with with dozens of countries. Its basis for making agreements is that both sides have to benefit (Singapore airlines found teh same when they tried). Allowing EK unrestricted access, they argue, provides large benefit to UAE and little to Canada. Free market, open competition and capitalism does not mean a free for all. Those who claim that competition is good and that this is competition fail to grasp the argument made paragraphs ago about what would be lost. And that is only the tip of the argument.

Mr. Contacted & Six7driver

My comment is specifically to the negotiation case with Canada. It is quoted on many web sites that UAE –Canada relations will be affected by the latter’s refusal to grant more landing rights to Emirates. As this was a statement by UAE Ambassador in Canada and irrespective of the outcomes , Isn’t that a sort of blackmail, threating and lacking diplomatic courtesy? The tribal failed to twist the arm of Canada , and so opted for a muscle stretching show.

Please read my previous posts on this site, all will give you the necessary information. No need for duplicate comments.

I wonder what response this will elicit from the Canadian government...

LAX-DXB is a long way if you have to go around Canada, not to mention HOU, SFO, and JFK. Just ask the Russians how it worked for them.

Canadian reg GIV landed in AUH this aft and pax were given a police escort out of the VIP ramp...where is our new GG and could it be the Min Def et al here to smooth it all over with the UAE? Enquiring minds want to know!:confused:

Personally, I hope not. Canada should not do anything; the best way of dealing with petulent, spoiled brats is to ignore them. Why should Canada feel it needs to smooth things over? I would be seriously disappointed if Canada gave so much as an inch to the UAE over tihs.

Definitely not in a G-IV. And not likely at all.

Sure about that? Watched it happen from just across the ramp...as to the reason? Maybe blocking a Canadian C130 from the airspace and all the sabre rattling needs a little diplomacy to keep cooler heads in the game...

UAE retaliates against Canadian armed forces due to a failed Buisness venture. Canada's top military man , the Defense Minister and Veterans Affairs minister were denied landing in the UAE on their trip home from Afghanistan.

Emirates and Etihad airlines wanted more landing rights in Canada for their carriers. UAE Ambassador to Canada had threatened that failure to reach a deal would affect bilateral relationships and now they have acted on their threat.
By Jonathan Montpetit, The Canadian Press

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Canada's top soldier and two cabinet ministers were up in the air Monday, their flight plans disrupted after the United Arab Emirates denied them landing in retaliation for a failed business deal.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay, Veterans Affairs Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn and Chief of the Defence Staff, Gen. Walt Natynczyk were flying home from a three-day visit in Afghanistan when the wealthy Gulf nation closed its air space to their plane, a military source in Ottawa confirmed to The Canadian Press.

The plane had to detour and it was unclear where it was headed afterwards. Government officials were not willing to confirm the location of the three senior officials, but one media report suggested a city in Europe.

Just hours earlier in Kandahar, MacKay indicated that Canada was being forced to vacate a military base in the UAE following the failure of negotiations to expand aviation links between the two countries.

"There have been discussion going on between the minister of foreign affairs and his counterpart. These discussions have been going on for some time," MacKay said a short time before he boarded the plane.

"And at this point, we will abide by the wishes of the Emirates, and... we will be leaving the base."

The UAE has been seeking more landing rights in Canada for its fast-growing state carriers, Emirates and Etihad. Amid strenuous objections by Air Canada, the talks stalled recently.

The UAE has blamed Canada for the failure of the five-year-long negotiations.

UAE's ambassador to Ottawa, Mohammed Abdullah Al-Ghafli, had warned Sunday that the failure to clinch a deal will "undoubtedly affect" bilateral relations.

By forcing Canada to vacate its base in Dubai, a once-secret installation known as Camp Mirage, the UAE will disrupt the Canadian military's principal supply line to Afghanistan.

Camp Mirage is Canada's only logistical hub in the Middle East. The only other regular re-supply route for the military in Kandahar is an overland crossing from Pakistan, which to date has been reserved for low-priority items.

Convoys travelling from Afghanistan's neighbour usually hire private security to fend off Taliban attacks.

The impending closure of Camp Mirage has left officials scrambling for an alternative. It was to play a major role in the withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan following the July 2011 end to the combat mission.

"We'll always act in Canada's best interests and one thing I know about the Canadian forces, they're very adaptable," MacKay said.

"They have alternative plans, they have contingency plans. With that in mind we're going through the various options that are before us right now.

"And we'll continue to do our mission here in Afghanistan... and we'll find other ways to support this mission through other hubs in the region," he added.

Natynczyk acknowledged the military was preparing to cope with upcoming changes to the Dubai base.

"We always have contingency plans in place," he said after serving Thanksgiving dinner to troops at a Canadian operating base in the Panjwaii district of Kandahar.

Canada had a years-old right to operate out of Camp Mirage under an agreement that expired in June. But each party was also allowed to give a one-month notice to end the agreement.

Media reports have suggested the UAE invoked that right last week.

At the heart of the dispute are demands by the two UAE airlines to increase the frequency and destinations of their flights to Canada. They currently operate a total of six flights a week to Toronto from Dubai and Abu Dhabi.
Air Canada has argued against increasing the flights, saying there is very little passenger traffic originating from the UAE and the two airlines are merely taking Canadians to third countries with stopovers in Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

But Ambassador Al-Ghafli said with 27,000 Canadians living in the UAE, six flights per week do not service the economic needs of both countries.

"It is unfortunate that this process has been so protracted and frustrating," he said.
"The UAE entered negotiations in good faith on the understanding that a solution would be reached and that constructive ideas would be brought to the negotiating table. The fact that this has not come about undoubtedly affects the bilateral relationship."

Prior to being denied the right to land — which will likely be considered a major diplomatic snub — MacKay attempted to strike a conciliatory note to the UAE.

"We are very grateful for what the United Arab Emirates have allowed us to do within their country," MacKay said.

"They have been very supportive of the Canadian mission, supportive of the mission writ large, and for that we thank them."
The UAE is Canada's largest trade partner in the Middle East and North Africa with bilateral trade of over $1.5 billion.

UAE orders Canada out of its base, airspace - Yahoo! Canada News

damn. people are all werried about iran but we nee d to keep our eyes open for emerging spokes on the axis of evil (now that uae aint any longer an emerging economy). :suspect:

maybe canada atc can put a little virus in its computer. "emirats xxx this is gander oceanic, confirm you are 7500?"

"negative gander"

"emirats xxx we sho you are a terrorist fligth. you must turn back. coordinate with shanwick for your return."

"negative gander, no problem here."

"emirats xxx this is not my fault. it is the system. turn back now or norad will be alerted."

few days of this mite nock some sense back into em.

Wasteafarian - please stop writing like a retarded moron:=:=

I'm not a friend of any of these childish tactics. I thought the Middle Easterners were masters of double standards and bullying, but the North Americans really reach new lows when they join into that game instead of convincing others of their own highly proclaimed values of free trade.

Remember the American argumenting and rhethorics about the Airbus/Boeing offers for a tanker? Pure protectionism.

Now the Canadians join in protecting their cr*ppy airline. Try it with matching competition, as you always proclaim!

I wonder what we would read if a huge order for regional jets from Brasil or Japan would be on the table and Bombardier would be excluded from competing due to "national asset interests".......

As long as AC could fly into the UAE with as many flights as they want, a restriction for UAE carriers to Canada or any other place is ridiculous if set up in the name of consumer interests. If the argument is unfair advantage of economic conditions, then stop buying from any low cost country, especially China, or face double standard indictment.

Again, I am no friend of the local proceedings, but a tit for tat puts one in the very same low corner.

Protecting your own countries interests is pretty much the mandate of any government. I don't recall Canada ever signing a free trade agreement with the UAE (a la NAFTA) so waving that flag is irrelevant. For your information both Bombardier and Embraer HAVE had multiple disputes go to the WTO for arbitration. Seems more like you just want to rant about North Americans. Try to stick to the specific situation here.

By what logic or legality? Simply, the UAE needs access to Canadian cities more than Canada needs access to the UAE. This has been borne out by the UAE attempting to use a military base for leverage. They wouldn't have gotten very far by threatening to take away Canada's landing rights in the UAE, would they? There is a bilateral agreement in place and negotiations have failed to change that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that's because changing it would benefit one party far more than the other, and both parties know it. Yes, Air Canada is lobbying furiously, but that doesn't change the fact that it is about protecting Canadian interests at large more than those of Canada's "crappy" airline. And the UAE has definitely been the one to expand the debate beyond landing rights by using Minhad as a pawn.

We'll see how far any "tit-for-tat" goes. Canada denying the UAE overflight privileges would have far greater consequences for Emirates than the UAE diverting one Canadian Forces aircraft. But putting a diplomatic snub on like that - it was the Minister of Defence and Chief of the Defence on board - will not exactly make the Canadians more open to negotiation.

Great "allies" we have in the Middle East...:rolleyes:

As an aside, the Canadian Air Force operates Challengers for executive transport, not Gulfstreams. I highly doubt a GIV in the UAE has anything to do with the proceedings. Possible, but unlikely.

Air France CEO calls for EU curbs on Gulf carriers' expansion
 

Yes, agreed, applies to any country, even the UAE ...

I didn't mention "agreements", I mentioned the boasting of own values like "free trade". I agree that when it comes down to agreements it gets tougher.

... and asked by what logic. Well, if you would be fair enough to quote the whole statement (the completion reads: if set up in the name of consumer interests) , the logic pops up: In the consumers interest. More flights, more and cheaper options.

Agree, and mentioned it before


Agree again, however there is a big and distinct difference between overflights of civil aircraft and military ones. Denying traffic rights is far easier than denying overflight rights for civil traffic.

I completely understand Canada's reaction, but is is better than the UAE's politics?

America Jr. .......ooops I mean Canada will eventually skip to the beat of whatever the UAE tells them. Canada is not going to move to another base. End of story. Ethiad and Emirates will be flying to Vancouver and Calgary in the very near future.

Interesting info I have never seen before.

Anyone of the Muslim faith care to confirm this?


Note the above is from the discussion area of one of the Canadian national newspapers addressing this issue.

Not trying to fan any flames; just trying to substantiate whether this an accurate interpretation of the Islamic view on contracts.

Pool--agree, except that the concept of consumer interest is much deeper than the simple concept that more flights, choice equals cheaper.

As I wrote in my last post, increased EK flights will mean other services (ie. YYC-FRA) get dropped if they siphone off the pax on those flights that continue beyond Europe. Those 10-15% of pax that continue on often make or break a route. In this case a few consumers gain and lots lose.

Guru8904: Thank you so much for blessing all of us with such wisdom! However, you left out many other profound quotes from the Koran such as:

"Young Conan...What is best in life?
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women. Al-Taubah 9:16

"Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you! Al-Taubah 9:17

A380-800 driver,

Read my original post again. I have not edited/deleted anything. The slaying part was always there.