GF does it again... DECs!!!
 

Well, it was too good to be true. All those upgrades on A320 and B767. Explicit commitment from VPO to upgrade from within. Seniority Lists. Temporary captains (which recently got their contract extended until their retirement). And so on.

There`s a full group of prospective B767 DECs in town for assessment. Seems like GF will hire 6 or 8 of them. PLUS one gentleman already hired and well under training on A320. Seems like none of these decisions were published via webmail with a VPO`s signature.

B767 DECs have been a fairly common practice every now and then, so doesn`t cause too much surprise, although definitely causes lots of frustration. BUT A320 DECs is a genuine breakthrough is the last 3-4 years policy. Wonder how many more will come.

Everyone in the region (mainly QR, EK and EY) recruit DECs. Fair enough, they`re expanding at good pace and eventually training cannot cope with upgrades and new hires F/Os. As far as I know, Gulf Air is NOT expanding. We still have 34 planes and not a single order or even LOI or MoU. We also have in-house Sims, now relocated in BAH, no more need to DHD to DOH. So, is there really a need for DECs? :sad:

Safe Flights,

JJ:ok:

DEC: unacceptable
 

Hello there JoeJack,

Unlike DE First Officers, these DECs will block the path to our command and all the promises to upgrade from within were empty words.
It does not surprise me, however. I said in the past that to hire a single direct entry FOs was to take a dangerous path towards DECs and now we see the results.

DEC 320:
Have a look on mygulfair.co and there is a guy who parachuted into the 320 left seat. Who is this guy? Where does he come from? Very high staff number. Local name.

When other airlines in the ME have to cope with expansion hiring DECs, Gulf Air does it for the lack of competence and professionalism.
Do you think VPO or aHOFO are worried about this? Not even an email, habibi....

LNB

training bond
 

Hello everybody,

We all signed the training bond based on company policies as we depend on then to make decisions regarding our careers perspectives. As they are changing the rules and policies all the time, including a recent letter from the VPO about carrer progression at GF( no joke), does anyone know if the training bond still applies in a legal dispute?

Thank you,

Very disappointed pilot.

Bird Dog you are employed in the Gulf.... the track record is.... pilots contracts generally are only enforceable one way....GFs.
GF managers have always screwed their pilots and the contract is not worth the paper it is written on ....to the pilot.
Remember the show must go on and be run under their terms.
Would you like to try and run that mess?
Try not to get too depressed.......and remember to fly safe.

The guy that joined 320 is ex-air arabia.:ugh:

VPO Newsletter 16th February, 2006
 

A quick refresher from 4 months ago...

Quote:

"Sub: Career Progression in Gulf Air

Gentlemen,

This letter is to adress concerns voiced by several of you regarding your career progression with Gulf Air.

Prospects for Command Upgrade

Gulf Air remains commited to promotion to Captain from within the ranks of Company First Officers. This has been consistently demonstrated over the last 3 years, with the largest Command Upgrade program in Company's history.

Captain H.A
Vice Presiden Operations"

This is very short sighted of GF.
Treat your pilots with scant regard and you yourselves will be treated the same...

Just asked around the office and nobody knows anything about DEC's. The next batch of interviews (end June) are for DEFO's not Capts. The Captain you refered to who just came from Arabia is an ex GF Capt who returned to GF after changing his mind. This is allowed by GF if the decision to return is made within a certain time limit. This is, and always was, the rule for Gulf Nationals. As usual there are individuals stirring it up trying to cause trouble. One returning capt suddenly becomes a flood of DEC's. Pure stupid!!!! A real case of never let the truth get in the way of a good story! It took me all of 20mins to establish the truth about this, so why cant others do the same before blasting off here.:=

:D As usual, thus is the root, they never know anything!:ugh:

What's the number?
 

Jackbauer,

How many DECs habibis are necessary to violate the commitment to upgrade from within?

What's the magic number? 2, 3, 10?

LNB

Hey jackBauer
 

Maybe you are asking in the wrong place. Try the golden Tulip hotel.I know one 767 Captain from another airline that is in Bahrain and he IS NOT here for the F/O position.

OK, after jumping on someone in another thread for complaining on pprune instead of going to ask managment directly I took my own advice.

Stopped in to see the HOFO today to ask if the rumour was indeed true. Nice, approachable guy that he is he sat me down and explained it fully. I'll anotate waht he said here.

Basically, they are short on the 330/340 if they take senior FO's off the 340 to upgrade on the 320 (even now you see captains flying with captains). They have also been short staffed due to the backlog in the sim due to the move from Doha. That backlog is clearing by the end of the month and the day missed in the long event is being added to the short event which begins in the next few weeks.

The plan is to cross train the 330 only pilots in August to allow movement from the 320 to the 340 and, more importantly, so they can take 340 FO's for the upgrade- which makes movement from the 320 possible. The DEC on the 767 are on 1 year contracts to allow some space for the upgrades to be completed.

That is straight from the head office. The VPO's last letter still stands.

I guess the grass is always greener - I'll trade any 767 FO - you can take my 330 blocks without overtime to Europe where my per diems get eaten up in no time - I'll take your O/T blocks and save my per diems. I estimate the average 320/767 FO walks home with AT LEAST 500 dinar more than me each month after OT, TAFB and destinations where the food is reasonably priced.That is with minimal OT--if he does 90-100 hours it is much more than that.

Trader,

Very good post, thank you for your clarification.Nice to have official information from a secure source.

Jackbauer,

Can you will still swear there is no DECs in GF at the moment? Before get angry with sincere people here check your fonts, just to avoid embarrassement to yourself.

You can add some make-up...
 

Morning gents,

Trader, thank you for your post and to share the knowledge with us.
Your chat with him touched mainly DEFO's for the 330.

Facts about DEFO's:

When me and my badge mates joined it was clearly stated on OM-A, clearly defined by the selection team that the only way into GF was RHS 320/767. Fact is that we on the 320 are still being bypassed by DEFOs to the long haul fleet. For the grass being greener...
I got overtime once, since I'm not part of the "club" and LDG NO BLUE here flies only east in a desperate attempt to get my HF straight one day! I want a better rating for when the *** hits the fan so I increase my chances of bringing food home.

We have lots of contract pilots, with extended contracts. Lately, extended until their retirement.

Fact is:
There are and will be pilots on the LHS that joined the company after us and are blocking our command. You can put some make up on this fact with words as: temporary, emergency solution, exceptions, 1 year contract, BUT, the nude reality is: Direct Entry Captains!

Concerning the guy that left for Arabia and now decided to return, when he left, was probably for a greener pasture. Now, when you do a move like this, you carefully analise the consequences and possible outcomes and you stick to your decision because is the best course of action at the time. I see this scenario like a boy wanting to join a rugby match and at the first contact with their defense line, runs out of the course calling for momma! I don't blame him, GF is responsible it.
Question is: when is he moving to the 330/340? To build up seniority in a different airline is an alien concept for me.

Can you imagine if all ex-GF that joined EK, QR decided to come back? No exceptions granted! If you don't draw the line, chaos will reign.

Seniority is a necessary evil that will disregard qualifications and experience to keep fairness in this game. Seniority will be decisive when a downsizing takes place, resulting in ONE number making the difference between staying or going, between staying LHS or demote as FO to keep your job.

If you remember the end of the movie "Braveheart" when Mel Gibson gets a haircut and shouts freeeeeeedoooooommmmmmm?
Well, you can see me shouting SENIORITYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

LNB

There actually is some kind of time limit for the local guys to come back.Can't rememeber what it is but not too long.Some of you guys who seem to have joined within the last few years seem to think GF owes you command.Well my friends you should talk to some of your local collegues,most of whom have at least 10yrs F/O time.The right seat A320 to left seat B767 courses have all been delayed indefinately due to some B767 F/Os who joined within the last 2 years complaining that when the joined they were promised command.So HOFO & the rest of th team have decided to delay the locals & keep their promise to the moaners.Very fair but hey that's GF.

Mogley,

You have a point, however it looks to me that the locals accept the DEC and DEFO without complaining as much as expats, the famous saying: What to do?
I suppose that, as being a national, your complaint would be more effective...Anyway what we are saying is that the upgrades are being delayed because of DECs, nothing to do with being local or expat.
Maybe I am wrong but I believe that everybody unhappy with all this changes in the rules and policies should let the managers know about it in a mature and civilised way. If not to change things , for piece of mind. In the end of the day its gonna to be management decision if they want to keep their pilots and I am sure they know how.

bd,
This is exactly 1 of the problems, people here (incl. myself) have got so used to whoever is in management at the time changing or ignoring the rules to the benefit a particular group.For instance we all know recently that there was an A320 to B767 upgrade course made specifically for 1 guy & can you believe it that now he's gone it's cancelled for all the rest.But hey... "what to do"

10-12 years to command....
 

Morning gents,

As for guys spending 10-12 years waiting for command, my answer is:
- so what?
It is a completely different market situation and for those who have been using this as a valid argument, I'll explain the facts to support my conclusion:

10-12 years ago is 1996-1994.
Aviation was still booming at the mid 90's, huge orders, the world economy was doing well. There was an exaggeration and companies expanded more they really needed, or to meet the real demand.

So, look what happened to the world, as these guys careers were progressing:

1994-1998
Start as S/O, after 2 years promoted to F/O. Total experience 2500-3000 hours. Aviation booming is on its last years.

2000
Gulf Air 072 A320 struck water in the arabian Gulf, 3NM short of Rwy 12.
Stops everything at GF. No promotions, no salary increases, no transfers.

2000-2003
September 11, SARS, low cost airlines. Fuel prices. Gulf War II.
GF suffers a lot, as everybody else in the world.

And our pilot in question is still flying RHS, because there is no movement. There is no NEED for movement, company is streamlining efficiency, cutting costs, reducing routes. Creation of GT to hit the Sub-continent market. Guys hitting 7-8 thousand hours TT.

2004-2006
Aviation worldwide starts to recover. Airlines ordering planes with AB and Boeing. The market starts to dry up, major airlines calling back their pilots (US, Air Canada), BA recruiting 300 for the coming years, Netjets expanding fleet, Asian markets booming, Middle East companies with never before seen expansion plans.

So, think twice next time that you come up with the phrase:
"Oh the actual upgrades had to wait 10-12 years for their command and you think that after 5-6 years, GF owes you LHS."

My answer is: today's market is completely different from 5 or 10 years ago. The 30 upgrades/year are in the VPO own words: "the largest Command Upgrade program in Company's history".

GF does not owe me anything (apart from free accomodation which they don't fulfil their contractual obligations), but the aviation market is smiling at us now! Remember that and make the best use of it.

Sincerely,
LNB

I guess the grass is always greener - I'll trade any 767 FO - you can take my 330 blocks without overtime to Europe where my per diems get eaten up in no time - I'll take your O/T blocks and save my per diems. I estimate the average 320/767 FO walks home with AT LEAST 500 dinar more than me each month after OT, TAFB and destinations where the food is reasonably priced.That is with minimal OT--if he does 90-100 hours it is much more than that.[/quote]

Dear Trader or "Line of the Sky",
Indeed 320/767 are the best fleet in GF :ugh:
Regarding the 767 fleet,have you ever heard about constant schedule changes,4 sectors a day,BKK-KUL 24 h while 340 guys stop after BKK,48h DAC,multiple dead headings within the same block,crew meals on subcontinent flights and so on.....:rolleyes: obviously not.
I ll tell you what complaining about the golden falcon is like complaining about the WX,it's not constructive.
Why don't you try EK:ok: ....nobody is paying the training bond any way

Based on the last 18 months ,the average monthly allowance I took home including,TAFB,Days off sold,Overtime and 2 months leave is below 500 BD.

But I guess that if you are spending your days off in OPS wearing a tie and doing some ATH,CGK,KUL (48 h only,24h too tiring) on a regular basis then it's another story.

In the mean time enjoy the sky chef's food and the extras...(be carefull everybody knows for the "surprise plastic bag"):ok:

Mogley...

1) the 2-year upgrades did not moan about anything, in fact they were caught completely by surprise..

2) base transfers to auh from other fleets for commands was never in the picture and that was made perfectly clear from the beginning..while not the ideal situation, it was the most cost effective one...EK is posting huge profits, and still does DEC's

3) at the time the 2-year commands happened, the \AUH base was alive and well

4) the other f.o.'s at the base were short of hours..(barely)

5) I am under the impression the airbus folks who recently moved to the 767 were from the 330/340, or in any event in line with fleetwide seniority as now the auh base is closed, the lists are merged

6) the only "moaner" in AUH has jumped ship...good riddance to him...

7) your posts are full of crap...if it's so bad...then go to EK, at least your complaints will have some modicum of legitimacy

Hey Ironbutt!
I was wondering if you know weather or not you can bid to fly on a particular fleet?
I the event the 320's and 767 are phased out would you have to stay on the airbus side of things coming off the 320?
A buddy of mine was told no problem to go on a different type other than airbus.

BigEasy, my point was clear - I was not complaining rather I was attempting to explain that moving to the 340/330 is not the godsend people think it is. My friends on the 320 make quite a bit more than I do on the paystub. The last 2 months has seen less OT but prior to that they made good cash.

The simple fact is the Euro stops are bloody expensive so even if I have the same TAFB as the 320/767 guy I spend significantly more of it. Again, it is all point of view is it not? MY sked also flops from day to night far more than the 320/767 guys. I have the skeds of both fleets in front of me. My sked has blocks where I fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night, 24 hours, fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night. My sleep pattern changes 4 times. Far less of that on the other fleets.

Anyway, not to belabour the point, but it 'ain't all roses' on the 330/340.

Never seen an equipment bid so to speak, once airbus,or boeing, one tends to stay there until command time..then assigned/offered commands where needed by the company...GF have NEVER made anybody redundant when fleets have been changed, or downsized..they always seem to find somewhere to put you...it will be interesting to see how the 767 retirement unfolds if in fact it does..and where crews are placed...the jury is still out on that as far as we know now...lots of rumours..sure at some level a plan is in place, but at this juncture, all we can do is wait until we are in the "need to know" crowd...

All very interesting......But do now consider the new retirement age of 65y.
It will be interesting to see how many that were terminated against their will at 60y now apply to be rehired....and as what...junior F/O salery or senior Captains salery?
Also how may GF expat Captains now approaching 60y decide to stay on until
65y termination...on their present Captains salery?
What a difference a few days/weeks could make to the total earnings over a further 5 years to these two different pilot groups.
Then there is the......cumulative slow down in commands factor as more and more decide that with no pension they must continue to 65y....and this affect on the F/o salery over five further years or more.... leading to..... further young pilots resignations.
What a pity the GF expat pilots do not have a proper pension scheme like the National GF pilots after twenty years service.
A seniority system does not mean much when retirement goal posts are moved by five years...as always there will be plenty of winners and loosers.

Hi there Trader!

330/340 schedules are far more stable then a 320/767. I don't think there is room for interpretation, since the kind of long haul operation naturally implies less flexibility, leading to less changes. They would change, if they could!

You are complaining about flying all day, 24 hours rest and flying all night?
At least you have 24 hours rest because of the kind of operation the 330 does, we got 11 hours only, or 12 now in BAH.

I don't blame you to be completely out of the loop on what's going on with the 320 fleet. Maybe if you had a taste of flying a cute CCU and fight your way back to MCT and dead head to BAH with 15-16 h night duty, you would appreciate the more civilized operation on the LH fleet.

LNB

LDG NO BLUE,

I can't argue at all about sked stability--- one of my good friends is on the 320 and I see how his sked changes upwards of 40 or 50 times a month!!!!!!!!!
The 767 is the same or worse.

In that regard I can't blame anyone for wanting to get on the LH fleet. MY only point was that it is not all great on the 330/340 either. I would rather have a long day and 12-15 hours off in between - work less total days per month for greater cxredit. Though I will grant you that might not work well if you get the 320 sked with all 45 minute hops.

I think if the company tackled the issue of changing skeds on a daily basis and dealt with favouritism within crew sked on the 320 fleet the crews at GF would be much happier. In fact I think you would even see some people staying on the 320 because they tend to be home more - and depending on your life that may be a real bonus. As I see it, the issue is not so much the 320 as it is the manner in which the crews on that fleet are treated.

Hi Trader,

You are absolutely right! The favouritism is the main problem.
Why some guys get always the day trips, scoring overtime easily on ATH, IST and some other keep hoping around the gulf and flying east? We've been discussing this since a long time on prune and nothing happened. There were official complains in the meetings with HOFO (R.H at the time) and the only change we saw was the closing of the rostering counter!

Electronic bidding system!
Take the power out of these rostering guys. Unprofessional, not qualified personnel dealing with a very serious issue.

It will not solve all the problems, but the improvement will be substantial. How much is gonna cost? It pays for itself after a short time, specially with GF and some guys scoring 100 hours O/T and some others flying 50 h.
The thing is, you cannot sleep with an electronic bidding system, nor will it give you gifts when you need something...

Concerning the 330 fleet, I know it sucks to fly to LHR 5 times a month...nevertheless it's wide body time.

The only question is who's going to go there and make the changes, without upsetting certain groups in the company? aHOFO? I don't think so. He has other concerns.

LNB

Give the guys and gals in crewing a break, unbeknownst to us there are lots things happening behind the scenes, as commercial dept is trying to rationalise what equipment flys where and when..(a good thing for GF) but many times this causes headaches for ops and of course ultimately us crews as well...as these sudden often daily changes occur, crewing has to react to them often with very little notice...throw in a few tech aircraft here and there, and a bit of sickness, and crew shortages, resignations, (the grass is greener syndrome) that already exist,...and you can imagine what crew control are up against..like "pissing out forest fires"... preferential bidding....funny you should mention that...strong rumour it's in the works...:ok:

Preferential bidding?

You mean a classic North American airline style system . . . the kind where the most junior pilots dine on a steady diet of table scraps, stand-by and the !!!!iest trips while the senior guys suck the sweetest nectar?

I can understand there are grievances with some of the rostering decisions, but I feel it is a fairer system, with more people sharing the load of the bad trips and reaping the more sought after ones. It has been my experience that the rostering department does entertain requests.

How to become a DEC...
 

...If you are one current, experienced A320 F/O, go to a rapidly expanding Low Cost Carrier like Air Asia [KUL], [100 brand new, factory fresh leather upholstered A320s in the pipline] upgrade within 18 months, fly left seat one year then go back to GF as a DEC! :D

ALso have heard that a new computer sys is in the works but I don't think GF would ever go to a strict seniority bid which can be ineffecient depending on how it is implemented. EK rotating block system works much better with everyone getting a crack at some good flying.

I also agree with Ironbutt - the biggest issue is airplanes going down and the shift in flying it takes to cover the flights. The lack of crews doesn't help........and it goes on. Crew sked is left to pick up the peices and fix the problem.

Panama Jack....seniority has to count for something, why shouldnt somebody with 20yrs plus get better trips than some new bloke??? that would be fair...

I can understand your point of view ironbutt57.

This same logic is also used as justification for the airline pilot salary scale in countries like the USA-- as a new hire you are on a pay scale that practically entitles you for food stamps, but you are told that if you stick it out you will have an excellent package after 15 or 20 years.

Consider it from a humanistic prospective. When does one really need more money and more quality time in life. When one is younger or older? Younger families make do on less out of necesity, but in reality, a better lifestyle and higher pay in the younger years of life is better than when you are in your 50's.

This is one of the things that I have found more attractive about Gulf Air-- a realistic starting salary and all hands sharing the load. It is one additional way to help retain newer people.

Really, I do favor a system where you have an input on preferences and where they are considered on the basis of seniority. As far as I have seen, these requests are already entertained throught the AIM's system (I think they limit it to one or two requests) and that is fair. However, I would hate to see a "build your block" system, where seniority #1 in his position/fleet gets all he wants while the newest guy gets what nobody else wants. Sure, I would also love to have my way with the schedule, but if we are talking about fairness, which system really is more fair?

Bidding according to seniority is always more fair. Because the senior guys already have paid their "dues" when they were the "juniors."

Why, for example, should any senior crew member be made to fly a night flight from LAX to JFK, so that a junior crew member, a new kid on the block, can fly a "senior" trip, day flight from LAX to HNL...? Impractical logic.

Hey there Glueball!

I tried to resign my 320 FO position and join again as DEFO on the 330, but they didn't let me....:ok:

LNB

Seniority!
 

A better seniority should grant the pilot better conditions!
If you are a more senior FO, or Capt, it's to assume you have family with children (stereotyped), therefore it's only fair that this pilot gets more time at home, if he wants! It shouldn't bother a pilot to "suffer" the first years, because he knows the company (not GF) will provide better conditions as the career progresses!

Seniority for:

- promotions and transfers
- demissions or demotions in restructuring phases
- vacations
- salary grades
- staff travel
- base wishes
- block wishes
- food wishes
- prettier FA
- and so on

Now that GF is braking this rule (again), what's left for us here?

LNB

ironbutt57, the only problem with saying that the senior guys should get better blocks is that they had the benefit of good blocks when they were junior as well!!!! They never worked under strict seniority and so had the benefits of a 'fair' system throughout their career here.

For a senior pilot to say that he now DSERVES a good block due to his seniority is, in my opinion, quite hypocritical.

Personally, I like Emirates system with rotating blocks that ensures everyone has some good months.

AT GF, I also see no reason why each pilot should not be able to list THREE preferences on their monthly bid to be given in order of seniority (instead of the current one choice). This is effecient for BOTH the company and the pilot since it distributes flying to pilots who have particular wants.

For example, a friend on the 320 does not want 4 or 5 day blocks, His friend loves those blocks (due to high TAFB). But he uses his one choice to bid a specific day or set of days off so he and his wife can plan activities. If he was given 3 choices he could bid his days off as well as a bid saying no 4 day blocks while his friend could bid the opposite. In the end each pilot gets some of his choice and the flying gets distributed nicely. This reduces the need for trading and, in my opinion, would reduce sick days.

The fact is we all have lives and with only 8 days off per month it is difficult to have a family life or private life. I would guess that HALF of all pilot sick days have to do with their need to be at their childs school play, activities wuth visiting relatives and then seeing the what happens in the example above - 2 pilots getting the opposite of what they would like when they could each get what the like.

Think I have to agree with you on this one Trader - some kind of rotating preference system would be more palatable in my opinion. HOWEVER, that's in an ideal world!
Unfortunately, I'd be fearful that the ever present GF nepotism would infect any such system and we would be back to square one. :*

Reality is, it doesnt matter a damn what we think or want anyway, we are just the hired help, a neccessary evil, and are only tolerated because we are needed - for the time being. An ugly fact, but one that has to be accepted all the same in order to survive in the sand. Banging ones head against the wall will only give you a headache and nothing else, and no one will care.

what to do!! :oh:

Well...we have a rotating seniority system in place for annual leaves..havent quite figured out how it works...I train a new guy and he winds up ahead of me in the rotation...but none the less..I guess I'd have to agree with Trader, the same rotation system could be applied to a sked bidding system as well..we'll see

Back to the initial discussion
 

Quite interesting discussion about seniority, sked bidding and so on... guess that would also make things improve over here...

Now, back to the initial discussion on this thread, it is now a fact that a couple of DECs are in town for B767 training, plus the guy that came back from Air Arabia.

On the other hand, 2 upgrades from A330/A340 to A320 going on and 2 more scheduled for the end of July.

Jackbauer, since this is a fact now, why did the office deny it 1 week ago?? Either they really don't have the absolute minimum grip of what's going on over here or they deliberately meant to fool you/us...

Ironbutt57, being a trainer on B767 fleet, what is your insight on the fleet's manpower right now? Do you think that would be possible to carry out more upgrades on it?? Is there a real need for these DECs?? What's opinion??

LNB, don't try to resign and then come back, unless you are a local!!!:ok:

Safe Flights,

JJ:ok: