Bravo 3.

I agree I would not like to be in the position , but those that are chose to be there, so dont waste sympathy on them.

The only point which I would make in reply is that the barstewards were plotting this long before the rise in oil price, it just happens that they can impose this under a different umbrella.

I suppose on the other hand if you are correct ,then as soon as the oil price drops below $40 a barrel we will get a whopping pay rise as the profits shoot up.............yeah right.

I would hazard a guess that the fuel surcharge that has been imposed more than covers the oil price rise .........$30 a sector I think ( 777 -300 = 434x$30 = most of the cost of the fuel)

Crapflyer,

If, and I seriously doubt it, you are as financially independent as you say you are, what the heck are you doing here?
You have got some nerve to tell anybody NOT to put his hand up for extra income or job satisfaction or in your case "fun" while you have done exactly that. Enjoy the ride but please keep your advise...
nixisfix

I have to say that I agree with many of the replies posted here about this thread. I still cannot endorse the actions that warning14 proposed. However I do agree that this "early christmas present" should have stayed under the tree.

One thing that no one has mentioned here is not what we have been given, as to why we have been given it. I say given as the word offer does not apply in EK. Interestingly enough the bullet points on the document have question marks against them. I guess that means "could change" As to the why; The company's immediate problem is the training dept. I am glad for the trainers getting a rise of a sort (metaphorically speaking!). Enough of them have resigned to make the company sit up and pay attention. Some very good guys sadly Many will argue that there are alot of issues the company need to address. If you look back to the meeting in December, the turnout was huge in this company's standard turnout history. Everyone waited with baited breath for the huge change of T & C's that was about to happen. It didnt of course. But did you really think it would. Remember the company only changes things when it has to. So back to the trainers. The company had to give them a rise of a sort. It is still not enough but then I am not a trainer and have no aspirations to be one. Hopefully it may coax a few to stay and even the odd one to come back. But as it stands not enough to change their standard of living.

It is however the standard of living which makes most trainers quit. There is just not enough of them o09out there to make a difference. The money may mean a few will join. But then I used to work with people who would work on a day off for free. The other immediate problem for the comapny is the price of oil. Oil prices from what I understand are a speculation as to what the supply/demand will be in months to come and not just now. On that note I think the price has not finished rising yet. I would say another 20% before it tops out. This will affect the world not just EK. I cant say I blame any company cost cutting to stay above water. In future days it may be something we could even be thankful for as our jobs could still be here for those that choose to stay.

In March 2005 we start taking stock of 1 aircraft a month for the next 7 years (I think) The next immediate problem will be getting people to fly these aircraft. If what the company has given us is enough to coax new people to join they will not have to alter anything else. No matter how much moaning we do it will not make a single difference.. Their job will be to keep the company alive. If they dont then 1100 pilots will be out of work .

Most of you have 2 options. Vote with your voice i.e. here or with your feet. Enough people from around the world (in aviation) read this forum and website. People naively base their career choices on what is written here. Many people aspiring to join EK will look here for guidance as whether to join or not. If I had based my choices on this rumour network then I would be a !!!! shoveller living in Hounslow with the other standard 15 indians trying to get a British passport.

So I say one more time. The company's immediate concern is not our T&C's. When aircraft start staying on the ground because there are not enough people to fly them, then things will change. But remember we will only get the bare minimum.

Now I am going back to bed...................

With all due respect to Dropp the Pilot, Emma Rate, Gulfa, Uplink et al I think you were very quick to post negative responses to Warning 14's post. While I too do not agree with some of the tactics suggested, I certainly give him full credit for having the balls to say enough is enough. Probably a bad analogy but you guys remind me of a woman who has been a victim of spousal abuse for years and years and when asked why she didn't do something about it she can't give an answer as the constant beatings have numbed her senses. I think the constant beatings the management has given us over the past years have dulled our senses and the response from Warning 14 attempted to bring us back into reality. Anyway, I digress.

To crapflying I do appreciate your comments and you do have some valid points but I have a difficult time taking advice from someone who has contributed to the problem (by way of you coming in as a DEC). This company was on the verge of having to increase our T&C's (due to a shortage of Captains and the continuing expansion) until your lot came around so in some respects you have contributed to the problem. Easy to tell others to forgo extra pay or position when you took advantage of it yourself?? Bottom line is the majority of pilots are whores and you are no different than the majority but I do appreciate your input none the less.

Anyway, my take on the new credit system is it can go two ways:

Version 1: We can take the simplistic and naive view as some have done on this thread that the only changes will be to Productivity pay and Appointment pay (taking away from productivity and giving to appointment; and in some cases actually resulting in a neutral to slight gain for the line pilots). However, I don't think any one of us is stupid enough to think it ends there, hence version 2:

Version 2: The existing credit based system will remain in place but only to fill each pilots monthly roster at the planning stage. It is the most efficient way to mathematically try to distribute an equal amount of work to each pilot (that is the reason why the credit based system was adopted in the first place). However, it will not in any respect be used to build final rosters, only to act as a start point to assign work.

The pairings will be built to maximize operational profitability at the expense of individuals and their families. Not that it was not being done already but there was a financial cost associated with inefficient scheduling; namely having to pay a deadheading crew credit for their time. This somewhat forced the planners to be prudent in designing pairings. Now that is gone and therefore expect many more pairings each month with flights one way/deadhead return as there is no cost to them to attempt to roster efficiently.

The way they will assign work will be to take the given productivity pay threshold for the given month and divide that by the number of pilots available. This of course will result in a significant amount of unassigned flying as we all know the policy at EK is to run the operation short of the necessary number of pilots (especially Captains) needed, hence the requirements to pay productivity pay in the past. (By the way, also bear in mind that the "productivity pay" for a 4 year Captain is only 76.84 dhs/hr in real increased wage payments to the company as the base rate of a 4 year Captain based on the old credit system would be approx 323.16 dhs/hr anyway).

Once the initial build is completed with all the various Flight time limitations accounted for (ie, your absolute minimum legal days off inserted which is anyone's guess given the complexity of the new limitations they have imposed) then the planners will be left with the spaces in each pilots roster where there is no flying assigned. As the minimum days off are now accounted for, they can simply insert reserve into each available space. Job done and the roster is published with each pilot having minimum days off, rostered hours right at the threshold and every other day as reserve.

Next is what to do with all that unassigned flying. Simple, at any given time probably 1/3 of the pilots in the company will now be on reserve (as stated above). So first look at the list of guys available on reserve and see if any of them is not rostered to the threshold yet. If you find someone, call him out for the trip. And if you can't find someone under the limit, simply call up Joe Blow and tell him he has been called out to fly XX trip. No need to pay "callout pay" as it is not a callout on a day off and if he fly’s over the threshold pay him the 400/280 dhs/hr. The callout pay is a red herring inserted to try to minimize the impact of the changes but I do not foresee it ever having to be used.

Bottom line is in my opinion this is the single most significant change in our T&C's since the introduction of the seniority list (which we know was already thrown into the toilet by virtue of the DEC's) and the development of the credit system. It will have a huge impact on the quality of life a pilot enjoys at EK, which is really the only thing left here to stay for given the lousy pay, increasing costs, poor management, etc.

ANY pilot who thinks that this is a postive move must have rocks in his head

The matter isn't helped by Kamelchaser comparing how much he earns in overtime now compared to a year ago...it's because you are WORKING HARDER, no mystery there

Recently it was announced that for FTL purposes only 2/3 to 3/4's of time on augmented operations was logable and countable towards your monthly limit. This move passed with remarkably little comment or outrage. Since we don't now get credit for deadheading how long before we don't get FULL credit hours for augmented operations....give it another six months at most

As regards how spineless we are as a workforce, someone went to alot of trouble to try and arrange legal coverage for the EK pilots for a paltry $230 a year, how many out of the 1200 odd pilots were interested .... 200, pathetic!

PS If you DO still want legal insurance scheme to go ahead for heavens sake email the EPC

How is the EK recruitment drive going.....? The golden days are obviously over...:confused:

Here are a few points to enhance the thread.
1. Our new man at the head of flight Ops ( tcas ) is in a similar boat to crap flyer.
He’s done a decent enough time in BA to be fat dumb and happy, with a handsome crystallized pension and a few pennies to come from Her Majesty.
Plus he will have capitalized enormously from the UK property boom over the last 25 years.
He doesn’t need this job !
He’s not ready to retire either, he’s just got sick and tired of bashing his head against a wall built of reinforced concrete by BALPA.
He’s obviously a pilot far happier behind a desk than in a flight deck.
Here he can make proposals and changes with only a brief reference to his puppeteers in the offices above, and if it’s about saving money, there’ll give him instant approval.
He’s having a great time massaging his ego shackle free.
If he has to clear out his desk by 12 noon, as happened to his two predecessors he won’t give a damn, just home to the country house and a cool pint down the local pub.

2. The issue of unity referenced here as a means of mass pressure on flight Ops management.
Most of us are here because of circumstance rather than choice.
Unity is generally biased by patriotism. That’s not to say all BA pilots are British and all Air France are French, and I’m sure all the Ozzie pilots in 89 where not Australian but, the predominant numbers are and were compatriots living in the there motherland.
Under those conditions it’s much easier to make a big noise and unite !
Here are 50 + different nationalities, many from countries who’s economy, currency, political structure and aviation industry is shot to pieces.
We simply should not expect those guys to stand up make a noise and jeopardize there entire existence.
I think the majority of our workforce is in fact in this boat.

3. It’s interesting to see the guys making reference to old productivity verses new with very little difference.
Just remember, very little is steady state in this airline for very long, it’ll change again and again. And I don’t believe the skeptic’s who say “ always for the worst ”.
Instructor’s, don’t get carried away with your new found regular income. Pay per duty is only a couple of years old, and at the time was introduced as a money saving measure.

4. legal Insurance ? Very handy !
I insure my car fully comprehensive. Would I feel at ease if I were involved in a road fatality, Yeh Sure, it could be anything from a long prison spell, to go home and forget about it.
The jobs the same, It’s a lottery ! Insurance or no insurance, “ a whole different set of rules ”

Cheers guys, I’m not happy about our imposed new rules and regs, but I’m not in a fit of depression either.

:eek: Warning14 has sure got everyones attention, you all must agree to that. With his so called outlandish remarks he has accually started what appears to be a constructive dialog.:ok:

What will it lead to? We will probably read some things that might work if they were implimented. Ah ha, that will never happen. Human nature prevents this. No one is to blame because in the end will must all look after ourselves and our families. What should we do as a group, curse the DEC or the guy who wants to make a little extra by doing some training? No my friends you cannot blame someone for living his life the way he sees fit.

You can however, blame yourself! Put a mirror on the computer and you will see the guy responsible for all these cuts staring you in the eyes.

For those guys contemplating "furthering your carreers" think about that. As for me, I will state right now that I am not interested in any other position than the one I hold right now. I have my reasons. Try to guess what they are.:8

Crazy

Airborne Ranger,not that many Afghani,workers in Satwa,not sure youre credible,or infact sound of mind,were all on a steep curve here.Its an EK forum.

Gulfa,me thinks,youre rather missing the point,the intention of Mr Kurtz was,to quite rightly highlight,just how apathetic(you included) we are as a group,and your response,about car insurance,in DXB,shows how you miss the point.Totally.

I sincerely hope you never run off the runway,in Khartoum,or Lagos,in heavy rain,in a AEROPLANE,unlike your car insurance in DXB,this legal offer was for lawyers in London,to get you out of jail,in an event,WORLDWIDE in an AEROPLANE.Fill the other half of your "full" glass,whilst you think on that.A missed opportunity.

To all,expect busier rosters,plenty deadheading,reduced time at home,and plenty time in a aluminium tube,and just when you think your coming into productivity...........

A week on standby.

Off to pub,to fill the glass.Cheers.QB

QB,
Do you think our unfortunate colleagues that had the recent misfortune of the very event you describe, would feel so much better had they had this wee insurance policy under there belt ?
Personally I doubt it ! Ek will do what ever EK wants to do, always have and always will.
There’s no unions, democracy, if’s but’s or maybes.
If I were to have a major aircraft incident, and it was not of my doing, I would not feel overly concerned. There have been several examples of that over the years.
If it was of my doing, then I would feel most concerned, big London Lawyers or no big London lawyers.
Not so dissimilar to driving around Dubai.

Ps, I make no reference to how I feel the blame will go with respect to the incident I allude to above. It has been covered at length and I just wish those gents the very best.

Thanks QB, precisely

Gulfa: "if I had a major aircraft incident and it was not of my doing I would not feel overly concerned"!!! I find your naivety stunning and your apathy actually quite depressing but I don't want us to get totally sidetracked on specifics

Look at the other comments in my post, these are decreases in T&C's being done incrementally. Give it another year and at this rate you will look back to this time with fond recollection

I don't work for Emirates and have been reading all of the posts on this thread but don't really understand what all just happened here. Could someone working for EK describe exactly what just changed with the terms and conditions? I'm gathering that there's no more pay for deadheading but beyond that I'm having a hard time deciphering what's going on.

I'm still in the interview hold pool and am trying to make an informed decision on what I'll do when/if Emirates calls. Could someone outline what's changed and give an estimate as to how it modifies the basic schedule and annual salary for a new guy?

Thanks.

Well its pretty evident. There are two groups here. One of the group consists of pilots who have moved to Dubai to "better" their lives, maybe even their pay. They are the ones that will keep their mouths shut to keep their jobs and food on the table for their families.

The second group is your ex-BA, Virgin and major airline cowboys, who took a massive paycut, to inconvinience themselves in coming to Dubai. They were spoiled by unions and laws that protected them in their own country and think they can come to Dubai and change whats obviously a trend for the airline. They are the " I can't retire on $200,000 a year" group, the "lifes not fair" bunch. Nothing pleases them and they should not be a deciding factor on whether or not you decide go to Emirates.

For the North Americans, we know how hard it is to get a good job, and for us, Dubai is a dreamland. For the Euro guys, its a rat hole, the queen mother herself would have a heart attack if she had to visit Dubai.

Good luck!

Regards,

BFD

PS I am not an Emirates pilot, I will make that clear, cause the old grumpies hate it when someone thinks I am, so to save them from a heart attack I'll tell you myself.

Buford,

NO credit for Deaheading, sim, training, vacation, reserve, or anything else except flying and augmented ops.

Just imagine the possibilities. You will work an entire roster of flights and then the company will take your days off and use them for any of the above without any compensation to you.

What do you think of that. Also there is nothing we can do about it and when we stop whining in 6 months they will come up with more cuts. You can bet your bottom dollar on it.

If they call you, RUN AWAY.

By the way the pilots are always the target for these things. I don't think engineers, gate agents. baggage handlers, office staff etc. are being affected. I don't think the top brass like us and they are showing it.

crazy.

MK,
So, my stunning naivety is what ?
I land, have a total irrecoverable brake failure, run off the runway and into the paddock.
I’m locked up by the local tribal plod and Emirates leave me to rot. No !

I land half way down the runway in heavy rain, jump on the normally operating brakes and run off the end into a paddock. I’m locked up by the local tribal plod and some highly paid London QC will come to my rescue.
Yeh sure, just like that bloke who ran his 310 out of fuel and landed a mile short.

What do you think, we’re flying around uninsured.
You cock up big time, you face the consequences, it’s the nature of the job.

Anyway that’s all from me; my apathy has taken a hold. No credit for dead heading is nonsense, the rest is just the same S**T different day.
No further comments

gulfa

"No further comments"

best thing i've heard all day

My Tuppence worth...
 

It's hard to remain balanced and focused on the areas that are of concern at midnight after a hard day's work, but I'll try and stay calm.

What a mess! I have never experienced such low morale in this company, a company that I applied to as far back as 1993 and hoped that one day I would join and be here in Dubai. Eleven years later and I wish I had not joined. What a very, very sad state of affairs. I am now experiencing possibly the lowest point of my professional life and for the first time have come to a crossroads. The decision that I will take is unknown to me yet, but the fact that I am there at all is an appalling indictment of the company for which I work.

We were once the proud owners of major awards, Airline of the Year no less! Now our customer complaints division is overworked. Technical delays were unheard of, now they occur with frightening regularity. Training staff were the pick of the crop, now many are inexperienced individuals just happy to get the title and pick up the extra cash. No offence, but would you really be Training Captains in BA, QANTAS, Cathay etc? Individuals made the Flight Operations department what it is today. Publications such as the route manual were all done by pilots working that bit extra to benefit the team. Now the pilots are not interested in doing that wextra work as they are not being properly remunerated. We have non-flying management staff, non-pilots in the case of the two fleet managers, who whilst very capable gentlemen, still think that pilots are overpaid and underworked. Yes, that old chestnut! I just wish it were true.

I am not going to attack individuals, I am not going to lower the gear 50 miles out, I am not going to write in and complain, or seek an audience with the management. The reason? None of that will work at all.

The last and only time in my recollection, that any change was brought about by the pilot body, was when a meeting was chaired by Mr. Maurice Flanagan and Mr. Tim Clark, effectively the top brass. This meeting was called to address the changes in upgrade criteria after the Gulf Air A320 accident in Bahrain. This affected the majority of First Officers as the hours requirement went from 4,500 to something ridiculous and an extended period of time in the company. After hearing what the pilots had to say, the criteria was reduced to the current 6,000hrs and three years in the company. Yes, still very good, but prior to that, those with suitable experience were being promoted in less than twelve months.

But will we have that opportunity again? No. The reason? Because at the last meeting, chaired by the new Executive Vice President Engineering and Operations who was widely believed to be addressing us in order to announce the results of the 'review' that was reportedly to have been taking place since the last pilots meeting, the pilots felt as if they had wasted their own time to listen to what was said and felt that their opinions, concerns and grievances were not being listened to. All the meeting achieved in my own opinion was to demonstrate the lack of man management skills held by that management at that time. The decision was then made to not have any further meetings due to the lack of respect shown towards the EVP E&O. I know things are done differetly here, but respect is earned through actions and deeds rather than expected due to position or title held, in my book anyway.

Mr. Alan Stealey has recently joined us from British Airways with a good reputation and a solid man management background. If what has been written is to be believed, then he does not 'need' this job. Would he not be the most respected of all managers if he actually stuck his own neck on the block and started batting for his own staff in order that the correct changes can start happening? But then he has only been here 5 minutes and is probably not aware that this most recent change is only the last in a long line of changes, some trivial some not, but all negative in their impact. Let me repeat that:

This most recent change is only the last in a long line of changes, some trivial some not, but all negative in their impact.

But then what Flight Operations manager has been there long enough to be able to document and quote all those changes? For those not in the know, we have had five Head of Flight Operations in almost as many years. How long will it be before Mr. Stealey is escorted unceremoniously from the offices by Group Security? That does seem to be the preferred method of career execution here.

Is it? To whom? I fall into neither category. Yes, I am just another expat pilot trying to earn a decent wage and get ahead of the life that I left behind, in my case, in the UK. I figured that the advantages of tax-free living in a relatively cheap part of the world, having fun and working for a rapidly expanding airline far outweighed my old life, a real rat race, back in Blighty. But I am not going to keep my mouth shut in order to put food on my table. There are principles at stake here that need addressing. The company no longer provides an open forum at which we can discuss our concerns, so those same concerns get aired, unfortunately, in a public domain such as this. If there was no PPRuNe it would be discussed somewhere else.

The company has effectively altered my contract of employment, the future impact has yet to be seen but taking the last twelve months of work and overlaying the new block hours productivity pay, I lose in simple cash terms 9% of what I have earned. That is a fact and has been calculated on the period from the 1st September 2003 to 31st August. 9% of what I earned last year would not have been paid to me had I worked under these new conditions. Other factors that have influenced my concern regarding the financial remuneration is the escalating cost of living in Dubai. That last is a fact and research shows that the rate of infaltion has grown from an annual CPI (Consumer Price Inflation) of 1.9% in 2000 to 3.2% in 2003. The figures for 2001 and 2002 of 2.7% and 2.9% respectively, clearly show an upward trend. Incidentally with an annual increase in the population of 7.6% (the largest increase of anywhere in the world) is it any wonder that the traffic and congestion is becoming ridiculous and the roads are a nightmare?

Before all you non-EK pilots start saying how lucky we are and that how hard done by you all are, yes, we did recieve a large bonus this year. But I contributed to the success that the company achieved last year. I contribute, as do all of my colleagues, from pilots to floor cleaners, on a daily basis to the increasing ambitions of this carrier and if I am working harder and harder in order to achieve that success, then I consider a bonus to be fair reward for that work. But also consider that we have no pension scheme and that the monies invested for me on my nehalf by the company in our provident scheme has shown a growth of -4% over the last six years. That is not a typo, the - sign is deliberately before the 4!

My advice to anyone considering joining Emirates is not even to consider it. Stay where you are and try and get enough dosh behind you to change careers altogether. It's been fun, but this one has now gone down the toilet.

P.S. Mr. Buford, Americans really should read up on foreign affairs. The Queen Mother died peacefully in her sleep in March, 2002. Your reference to others as 'Cowboys' is also resented.

Aaah! I see someone has beaten me to it! Still, you shouldn't go around calling people names.

Boy oh boy what a can of worms our dear friend AAR has opened here! I have been flying and have missed all of the fun of this thread but I think I must add my 2 fills worth.

After careful study of my previous pay for this year I have discovered an astounding fact:
OLD PRODUCTIVITY PAY PLAN
January-October= nil extra pay

NEW PRODUCTIVITY PAY PLAN
January-October=nil extra pay

Shocking is'nt it? The reason is simple. I DO NOT WORK OVERTIME! I am not here for the hours or the experience. I do not care about adding more time to the logs. I do not answer the phone on days off. If I want to work on a day off I call them on a duty day and ask if they have anything for the day I want to work. They never do. I am not taking a pay cut and I am not getting a raise. I am not wealthy, in fact I am rather poor. Regardless, I do not work overtime, and if every one else will not work overtime then it will create a need for more Captains, which will require even more first Officers. In the long run we will all be better off: F/O's will upgrade and when there are too few applicants for new first officers, the package may be improved once again. Although it seems that every time the package is improved we make less money! How does AAR do that?

I am off to the beach to look at fat Russian chicks in thongs!

Regards,

330 man

PLEASE lets do us all a favour and ignore the historically ignorant and intentionally inflamatory posts from 'Bound for DXB' who is obviously a complete tosser and who ironically shows ideal managment material for EK...AGAIN IGNORE HIS RUBBISH as it only serves to dilute this thread and keeps him away from the porn sites he so obviously needs.

The point about this last ammendment to our T&Cs is that it is yet another hit in a long line of hits coupled with no appreciation of the increase of the cost of living and decrease in our standard of living. On the outside EK is throwing its money around on multi-million pound sponsorship deals whilst the rot is growing on the inside. I thought when I came to EK I could read Flight International normally for the first time in a long time but I am back to opening it at the appointments section again in the hope that something reasonable will appear soon...what a shame.

As for the insurance issue mentioned earlier; if you screw up (and it is 99% possible that any accident/incident will be pilot error) you will need it. If it is not your fault (with the company, aircraft manufacturers and pax lawyers looking for a scape goat) you will need it. For unfair dismissle (99% possible at EK)...you will need it. A330 man, if you go to the beach looking for fat Russian chicks in thongs all you will soon need is a doctor!

Anyway, EK can be taken to court in any country they have assets in. So if you are an Aussie you can take them to court in Oz etc. Any bad publicity would probably result in an out of court settlement...in any case you will still need a lawyer.

LOL! you guys are absolutely right... I am in the wrong career, I should go for management. How am I possibly going to have a career anywhere with pilots such as yourselves who are willing to hurt your own company and its profitablility by trying to get back at them. Very Nice.

And the porn sites, yea thats really grown up Shake, have nothing intelligent to say, because knowing EK managment reads this crap that you guys post, you think things will get better for you?

330 man seems to have it right. Why complain about getting called in on your days off. Anyone with brains and family wouldn't answer the phone.

With behaviour like this (and I can guarantee EK management knows whats going on), don't expect things to get better, with low morale and people plotting crazy unreasonable things, it all gonna go down the tube. It works in any company and in any industry at the end.... the company wins or everyone loses.

As for Shake thinking he could challenge an airline because they didn't pay him for coming to work on his day off... lots of luck. With the money they have they'd play him around and not see a court for many many years.

I have spoken with tons of pilots here both AC and ACE, all unhappy wit the job security all planning to go to EK or GF. They can't believe the attitude of some people in this company which leads me to my question... and this one is bothering me.... how did you guys get through the interviews. If you ever publish it I will be the first one to read it!

Good day in the Sandpit!

BFD

Bound for Dubai:-

I have yet to meet a "cowboy" from BA,VS,they are consumate professionals,in every case.There are many "groups" here,some came through choice,most infact,others because they needed a job.None will retire on 200K pa.

You however,go and put your anorak back on,and get back to sharpening your pencils.

SecurID:- Very eloquently,put.

Any pilot,here in EK,who believes they do not need,insurance cover,are either tight fisted beyond belief,or naive in the extreme.

A330 man,part from your pastime of thong watching,what do you do IF,you are rostered 95-100 hrs,each month,without choice?

If rostered,you do the work,you get the hours,the money,I cant see how you avoid unless sick?

With the new system,that wont be a problem,however.
QB

I apologize for my wording, cowboy was probably not the best word to use. I am sure they are all great guys, and very professional at what they do. But to the outside world, especially people who do plan on working for this company, the vibe is that u've all lost ur passion for what you do and u do it for $$$. Its hard for even someone with enough hours to get a straight to the point non bias answer, because someone always has something smart to say. Not everyone is after the money, I know I sure ain't. If I was I'd be a lawyer or Doctor.

Emirates is treating you guys this way because they can. In terms of business and management, its brilliant all though the ethics are horrible. They lower ur pay and increase ur workload because they have a huge pilot pool, guys that are willing to move down there cause they think its where they want to be. Don't like the way they are treating you, fine, they can have you replaced faster than you can say "honey pack your bags, we're leaving". They got guys with just as much time or guys with not as much but with the money to buy their own endorsements and to buy their seat in the flight deck.

They don't treat baggage handlers and engineers this way, because maybe their supply or hiring pool for those jobs are not as big as the pilots. And since pilots are more likely to migrate than baggage handlers they don't have a problem with it.

I am not as dumb as you think, I know how it all works, I've worked co-op in major corporations and my study in college was aviation management.

You got to live with what you got and sometimes life doesn't ask you you what you want. You think its bad at EK, its bad almost everywhere. In the end its you guys that decided to go there, you signed the contract or agreement or whatever it is you guys do to make things official (if that even exists there)

I know it isn't easy to live there and work especially if you're not local, I have many friends that live there, study there and work there. They are why I became interested in going down there. I am not too thrilled either. My first job is gonna require me to live in my van in the boonies for the spring, summer and fall season because the pay is less than $12000CDN a year, but I have to pay my dues like everyone else.

In the end, weigh out your odds, if its not worth your time then leave and go somewhere that makes you happy, but don't spoil opportunities and chances for others who started just like you and deserve every chance you got!

Greatly Appreciated,

BFD

bound-for-dubai is a canadian child who lurks on this forum and dreams of an exotic life in the middle east, a place he understands because he's never been there. it is best to stick him on your ignore list and report him to the moderator because his opinions are not founded in anything.

You would know all of this, where I've been what I dream because you are what.... a washed out miserable pilot, who doesn't post a location for himself because he's from nowhere, going nowhere. Never knew s*** could float, then I saw you swim. Happy flying, if you ever get around to doing that after you finish crying.

BFD

Ernest

My god BFD is an irritating little brat is he not!! He used to go in for one liners but now he seems to have got the bit between his teeth he rambles on and on. With the approaching Canadian winter I guess we are all in for more and more of his inane prattlings.

BFD,EK are looking for people just like you,but not on the flight deck.Your services,will be put to good use in the "pencil sharpening dept",where you can hide behind a rubber plant,plotting further cuts,to the "cowboys" you so want to join.

Your ethics,principles,and ideology,are familiar to us here as pilots,who care about our future,and that of EK.We simply have no meaningful dialogue,or comms with our Flt ops managers.

It is absurd,to suggest anyone here,wishes to "hit back" or "hurt" our airline,we are professionals,and merely find it rather difficult to accept imposed,forced changes,with no explanation.That is not unnatural,Im sure it even happens in Canada.

Now,get back in your van,in the boonies,put your boxing gloves on,and enjoy that cold winter,filling in lots of forms,to utilise your aviation skills,whilst we moan and whine on the beach,with a cold beer.with out hats and snakeskin boots on.

QB

BFD,
Are you familiar with the noun, 'gravitas'? A rough colloquialism would be 'street cred'. Point is, you have none. Disappear until you're potty trained.

Buford

"I don't work for Emirates and have been reading all of the posts on this thread but don't really understand what all just happened here. Could someone working for EK describe exactly what just changed with the terms and conditions? I'm gathering that there's no more pay for deadheading but beyond that I'm having a hard time deciphering what's going on. "


To give you an analogy, suppose you work for GM on the car assembly line. Your job requires you to work 4 days/week building the cars (Mon-Thur) and 1 day/week doing paperwork in the office (Fri). Your normal work week is 40 hours; 32 hours building cars and 8 hours doing the paperwork. Your contract says that if you work over 40 hours/week (either building cars or doing the paperwork) they will pay you extra for your time. However, it will not be "overtime" that you might think of in the U.S. such as time and a half, double time, etc; it will be a small amount of "productivity pay" above your normal salary/hour you make anyway (if you made $20/hour GM decides to make your "productivity pay" $24.60 for each hour you work beyond 40 hours/week either on the assembly line or in the office. About 23% more than your base rate, and hence the reason the company has never used the term "overtime". In EK's structure that is approx the increase above your base rate for a 4 year Captain and as your salary increases over years in the company the % decreases (as the rate of "productivity pay" is a fixed amount that never changes). A year 12 Captain actually makes less per hour working "overtime" than his base rate/hour! No wonder the company had such a hard time finding "volunteers" to do "overtime".). Also lets say GM tells you that when they produce the monthly schedule they will roster you for this extra "productivity" at their discretion, that even if you have no interest in working "overtime" you just won't have any choice (EK currently) and it will just show up magically on your following month's roster.

Now suppose GM comes down and says they have decided to change the game. Now you will still work the 40 hours/week but they will only pay you overtime for the time you spend building cars on Mon-Thur. To compensate you for this they tell you they will lower the threshold for the productivity pay by 6% (83 to 78 hours in EK's case), so now your package at GM looks like this:

Productivity pay threshold: now 37.6 hours (6% less than before)
Mon-Thur: build cars for 32 hours
Fri: do paperwork for 8 hours

Because of the changes GM now can schedule you an additional 5.6 hours/week building cars before they need to pay you the additional "productivity pay". They can also now schedule you as many hours as they want on Fri doing paperwork as it does not come into the calculation for productivity pay and they do not have to pay you for it; in other words you get to work for free on Friday.

Now take all that and substitute car building for physically flying the airplane (block hours only) and substitute paperwork for reserve (standby duty), deadheading, simulators, ground school training, etc.

How do figure that would go down on the GM assembly line?

Still wanna come?????

Beautifully and elegantly put!

One could only wish that a pilot could have the work hours and pay/benefits package of an assembly line worker from GM...and I know...lived in a town full of 'em, all my neighbors wuz one....

Out of interest, has anyone tested the legal waters for breach of contract? Will the legal cover give us access to such legal advice? If we all compare todays T&Cs to those we joined with would we have a case?

I'm sorry it took so long folks (occasionally I have to work ;) ) but I'm sure you will all (except himself that is) be relieved to hear that BFD has had all rights to this forum removed. Once again I will reiterate that these forums are primarily for professional pilots; we welcome all walks of aviation professionals to interact, as well as those interested or associated with aviation. All we ask is that they demonstrate a common respect for other forum members. BFD has clearly abused that civil decency and I've pulled the plug on him. I apologize to those in children's interest groups or civil liberty organizations who feel that I may have abused my remit but that's the way it is.

Now let's get on with our business.

4HP

Earl Hadlea:

Very interesting. I got 7 reserve (2nd from bottom bid group, mid way up in my group) when last month I got 1 day reserve (bottom bid group).

7 Days off total (max 2 in a row)

Same weighting on the CRS bid as last month so if anything my roster should have improved, not gotten worse.

Not supposed to come into effect until Dec 1 my ass; some definate manipulation of the new T&C's here to see how it will all pan out.



4HolerPoler:

Thank you for your intervention, very good news. Now maybe we can let the adults continue to debate these important issues.

Cheers.

Dune

I'm top bid and actually got a decent roster for a change. However, I look forward to December with interest when I will be first to trial the new system as a bottom bidder!

I'm trying to work out who will stay working in the office. If 2 weeks office days (without any associated credit) will pay less than a Manchester in overtime. They have been trying to get pilots out of some of the key Flt Ops jobs, now they may succeed. I shudder to think about the quality of new hires we will get with zippo pilot involvement in the recruitment process.

Can't wait to see what happens when they start paying augmented crews in accordance with the flight time they are allowed to log. We already have several flights that go into discretion the moment the parking brake is released. Is it legal to sched a flight as 9hrs block when it will actually take about 9.30 to avoid taking an extra crew member.

The thin end of the wedge is getting fatter by the second, better go to Choits and get some more vaseline. Ut oh!

Cerberus:(

Dune.If I didnt know better,I might think you designed the new system,very nicely put.

Cerberus,your Dec roster will be a good litmus test,enjoy your good roster,whilst it lasts.

The new system,has resulted in 5 or 6 of Recruitment team resigning,as no credit now received.So a well researched move on that front,to keep pace with continued expansion.

Word is the 2/3 ,3/4 augment nonsense is to be shelved.

New callsign,effective,1st Dec,in co ordination with new T and Cs.

BOHICA replaces Emirates.

Bend Over Here It Comes Again.

Safe flying to all,and keep you glasses,half full lads.Been in training school,hence,SITREP,all rumour naturally.

QB;) ;) ;)

Hello, again
I am sure that things will only get worse, since we do not decide to stand up to this...
Two notes that I think all of us need to take a look at. Why are they offering us 800 AED for our days off?
Because they are desperate to find people to work on their days off, and since goodwill amongst the pilot group will not get anybody to fly for them, they are offering the 800 as a carrot. It goes to show you guys, how management works in solving problems. See a problem try to fix it. See no problem, well things must be great.
On a second issue, I think that now that the company is growing over 1000 pilots you will not see many of us not calling in sick when we feel we had enough.
Guess what? Next month they are starting to f....k around with my roster, and I have a feeling already that I am going to be fatigued, and not fly the 10 trips they have scheduled me for. I am definetely not coming back deadhead, so any of you want to do it, go ahead...
By the way, when they change the contract from its original, and since there are no legal labour laws in Dubai, you are bound by your home country laws, so you are protected when it comes time to go to court...
Cheers

All well and good, crapflying, but then again it doesn't seem to have worked out for the CX guys...last I heard.

Known facts (or at least it should absolutely have been known) that the rules are set by management in the middle east.

If you didn't know this before...now you do, and not a thing you can do about it.


And further, when you applied, you asked for work, yes?
Now that you actually have to work (gravy train derailed) so there is only one alternative, like it or leave.

Simple as that.

It has been ever thus since aeroplanes were first introduced to the middle eastern folks...and it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

Yes, it was once true that the big bucks were there (MiddleEast) for the taking, but these times have loooog passed.

Like it or not...and apparently most do not.
Just the way it is, and nothing you can do about it.

On the brighter side, perhaps other flying jobs have opened up elsewhere, but suspect that terms and conditions are on the ever-more downward slide.

Crapflyer,

The legal aspect is still very interesting if we are to an extent covered by our homeland laws and not exclusively by the local ones...how do we find out exactly? This I believe this could offer a way forward if a group action were to be considered.

You are right with much of what you say but remember that there are many here who have young families and do not have your financial security to do much yet. This is what he company cynically count on to a certain extent. However, as the changes begin to take effect, paying tax again back home won't seem as bad as it once did as it is possible to clear more net back home now than the take home package here (even with accom).

Good luck with standing your ground...remember your on sand now.

crapflying,

the "800dhs for being called out on day off" will never be required. Remember, there will now be ample pilots on standby, because it's now free to the company.

Here's another way to look at the whole equation:

Back at the last pilots meetings (gone the way of the Dodo) in December and January, we were informed that the T+Cs were being looked into.

The company DID NOT spend 6 to 8 months coming up with something that benefits us, the workers.

But my real worry is this: is this the first of a two part implementation and part two is to give us the required minimum days off per month, and the rest will be stanbys, availables, and other such duties. This will mean that the company no longer has to pay ANY overtime, call out fees and saves a bundle on our pay, whilst paying for long term health problems which will arise from being over-worked.

And before anyone says we're not over worked, look at it this way: many of our flights leave between 2am and 4am local, and how much rest do you get the afternoon/evening before with all the neighbours and kids etc making merry? You do a 10 hour duty, have 24 hours off and then come back again to arrive sometime around dawn the following day.

OK, so a day to get the body back in order would be great? But no, away again after another 24 hours off for another 24 hour period away.

This will lead to fatigue, which he company doesn't recognise and will put you down as being sick!

So with all these long hour flights (20 per trip away) you do 4 flights and you have 80ish hours for approx 12 days work, and thus require the other 18 or 19 days off.

The company doesn't like this and has a. decreased the augmented crew flight duty you can claim for your 28 days maximum, and b. now no longer giving credit for any other duty.

Now most other, DECENT, airlines give at least 2 nights off down route for some proper rest before returning. But this would cost the company in monetary terms in allowances and accommodation.

So make up your mind AAR, days off down route (costing the company money), or days off in Dubai, with less fatigue and less expenses!

Not that it matters for me any more.......

TTFN

Wag